retrieve question

[Roo]

So we have 9 month old GSP who is wonderful. She is still pretty clumsy and growing. She is doing really good with some basic commands such as Here and Heal. She only fetches when she feels like it. some times when we are playing with the dummy she goes nuts for it and other times she takes off after it gets to it looks at it and leaves it. So basically right now she is only retrieving on her terms. Any tips on how to turn this corner?

[gasman]

Keep it fun and keep her interested.
If she is excited, play with her and then stop.
The key is to stop before she gets bored with fetching, then she will want to fetch more 

and thats my 

[GrousePointer]

Force fetch is probably the way to go. But I'd keep things fun for the dog for now and let it be a pup. If the dog is gun proofed take it hunting for now and revisit this next year if it's still an issue.

Hire a pro to do the force fetch job if that's what it comes to and if you've never done it before. 

[Stilly bay]

nothing wrong with FF, I have no problem with it what so ever, especially if its part of the program you are using or the dog you are working with has no prey drive. BUT, if you are not using a program and already planning on integrating FF with it, I strongly feel there are other avenues to explore besides FF.

FF is a great tool, but not the only tool in the box and not something to be executed by a novice.

[wildweeds]

force fetching a 9 month old pup is akin to expecting college level math from your kindergartner........... screw that young dogs mind up and you'll have to deal with it for a lifetime.I got  free dog some years ago that an amateur tried to force fetch with channel lock pliers at about that age.Between that and the  incessant heeling  he was taught the dog was a wreck for 2 seasons with me before he started to come around,he was 5 when I got him.

I'd personally let the dog have this season and next depending on how much ground time afield is achieved  before excercising heavy training.

[Stilly bay]

I got  free dog some years ago that an amateur tried to force fetch with channel lock pliers at about that age.

I don't think that's appropriate at any age.  That or the shock-collar-to-the-groin, or the scream-whoa-and-pick-up-your-dog-by-his-skin-and-throw-him-10-feet-away-from-the-bird "training".

I certainly hope nobody on this board uses any of those "techniques" or knowingly uses any trainer that does.

yeesh, thats why my unruly pups will never go to a trainer.

to the OP,  what are you using for retrieves and how long does your usual training session last?  have you tried using a rolled up sock? there isn't a German shorthair on the planet that doesn't love a good ripe sock.

[wildweeds]

Apparntly you missed the part about it being an amateur doing the force fetching............. the need to force fetch is the product of unthought out breeding IMO.

I got  free dog some years ago that an amateur tried to force fetch with channel lock pliers at about that age.

I don't think that's appropriate at any age.  That or the shock-collar-to-the-groin, or the scream-whoa-and-pick-up-your-dog-by-his-skin-and-throw-him-10-feet-away-from-the-bird "training".

I certainly hope nobody on this board uses any of those "techniques" or knowingly uses any trainer that does.

[Roo]

Yea we are new to this. She is our first dog. I really want.to do most of the work myself as.i.think it help build that relationship.  We have a friend who is going to help us some. We  have been keeping it fun for her just doing very basic stuff. Such as  Here and heel.  Playing with practice dummies. I need too start her on whoa. That one is going to be a toughie I think. She is sooo hyper. One of you mentioned a program is there one you would suggest. The last thing I want to do is mess up our dog.

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[justsomedude]

Yea we are new to this. She is our first dog. I really want.to do most of the work myself as.i.think it help build that relationship.  We have a friend who is going to help us some. We  have been keeping it fun for her just doing very basic stuff. Such as  Here and heel.  Playing with practice dummies. I need too start her on whoa. That one is going to be a toughie I think. She is sooo hyper. One of you mentioned a program is there one you would suggest. The last thing I want to do is mess up our dog.

I was/am in the same boat as you as far as being new to training a bird dog.  I've been using the Perfect Start/Perfect Finish videos and would highly recommend them.  Tons of great tips and I've had really good success so far.  The whoa process in the video is fairly simple and my dog picked it up quick, but it is a process.  Best of luck!

[Blackjaw]

I have used Jim Dobbs method to 'force fetch' 3 spaniels. Explanations at http://dobbsdogs.com/library/retrievers/rjpart1.html.

After FF three dogs the main things I found are:

1. All dogs are different. It is up to you to determine the age your dog is ready for FF.
1. Build a training table. You can always store stuff on it in between dogs and clear it off when you need it.
2. Short training sessions: When I train 'hold' and 'fetch' I try to do 3 five minute sessions a day as it is less stressful on the dog.
3. Lots of quite praise/petting when they are doing things right.
4. You are probably doing it right if your dog willingly jumps up on the table when you open the door.
5. Don't attempt if you don't think you have the temperment. You need to stay calm and consistent.

[Happy Gilmore]

Pointers aren't even force fetched? Someone using pliars definately isn't force fetching. I've never seen a pointer with anything more than what I'd call a "soft force or, force hold".

Pointers guys do not understand force fetch nor do retriever guys understand how little FF is required of a pointer. Take a pointer to a guy who is experienced with Retrievers and you'll likely have a big fat mess on your hands. Actually, I'll almost guarantee you'll have a mess. (depending upon who's eyes are looking at the dog of course and what level of training was expected in the first place)Take a retriever to a pointer guy and you'll likely have a half force fetched dog who is confused because pointer guys don't complete FF allowing the animal to start understanding pressure and how to learn. 

I FF all my dogs and some for friends. They all run happy and are taken to the level which is appropriate for the task they'll be expected to perform. From the comments in this particular thread I see that few people here actually understand FF and more have never seen a properly FF'd animal.

I want to FF pups between 6-9 months. Do it later than that and it becomes more difficult and the dog has less of a chance to understand what you are asking it to do because he has established a mind set of "how things will be" with your relationship. If you think FF is about picking up a bird and bringing it back to you, you don't understand FF and have probably never worked with a properly FF'd dog.

[GrousePointer]

Happy,

I'm no expert on the matter, but I've read a lot of posts by pointing dog trainers who say they would rather do force fetch as the last training item in their program. That they want a dog that is broke to wing, and shot if required, and have them as full of drive and desire as possible going into it. Most of those guys would never force fetch a dog younger than a year.

However, I've seen retriever guys frequently say they force fetch dogs under a year.

Do you stick to the 6-9 month timeframe regardless of whether they are pointing dogs or retrievers?

Again, I'm no trainer, I'm just asking what your take is.

[Happy Gilmore]

Happy,

I'm no expert on the matter, but I've read a lot of posts by pointing dog trainers who say they would rather do force fetch as the last training item in their program. That they want a dog that is broke to wing, and shot if required, and have them as full of drive and desire as possible going into it. Most of those guys would never force fetch a dog younger than a year.

However, I've seen retriever guys frequently say they force fetch dogs under a year.

Do you stick to the 6-9 month timeframe regardless of whether they are pointing dogs or retrievers?

Again, I'm no trainer, I'm just asking what your take is.

Force fetching at a young age makes all the difference in the world in my opinion. It all depends on the dog. You don't take anything "out" of the dog, what you're doing is putting "in" an understanding of how to deal with presure and teaching the dog how to properly respond when you apply pressure. It is a complicated to explain but, this all goes in course with properly collar conditioning the dog. It is part of a bigger picture and package. (if you want to use an e-collar)

I'd rather get a young dog anyday than a 2 year old wirehair that has learned to eat birds because she can, runs from you when she gets a bird, nips at the handler and hands when a little pressure is applied because she was never taught how to properly deal/handle pressure(from a lead, not a collar) etc, etc, etc.

Someone noted you can't FF some dogs because they are softer. This cannot be more untrue or wrong. An individual person may not have the experience to properly FF a dog who is soft and rolls over when you pinch an ear or whatever you do. A soft dog will gain an amazing amount of confidence and structure which allows them to become excellent performers in the field. FF gives the dog structure and an understanding of communication with the trainer. Soft dogs, when properly FF'd come out of their shell because they are taught to understand pressure(either real or often it can be "perceived" pressure during training which can be something as simple as handler body language).

My current personal dogs are probably the "softest" ones I've ever FF'd. Both extremely sensitive to pressure in the beginning, held grudges and got sulky. Cried, avoided it, attempts to bolt etc. I have Chesapeakes. Training, FF'ing and the dogs understanding what you are asking produces very good results. Come watch my two Chessies work anytime. I think they turned out pretty good. I've neither passed a MH test or completed a field trial but, we've gotten to the end in both venues which I'm happy with for this year. Training doesn't stop. The bottom line is, if a dog is asked to do something which has not been properly explained, taught and repeated you will have a pile of poop for a dog on your hands.

The toughest ever was a 3 year old, out of control "British"(show lab). I spent 2 weeks teaching "hold". Making the dog simply hold the bumper brought on screaming, crying, rolling around and just having a big tantrum. This was with ZERO stimulation. Simply opening the dogs' mouth and putting a bumper in it. The dog had learned via owners that she could get out of anything with her big fake act. Another 3 weeks on a "soft force" (very light ear pinch)and obedience. During force hold we started collar conditioning, followed up by obedience and more collar conditioning. The dog learned how to handle itself, started to understand it had a "job" and became a good member of the family again. Often through the process you can find something the dog is willing to "work" for that gives you a reward system. This yellow dog was bat-crazy-nuts for Chukar. Didn't care for ducks or pigeons but, Chukar...lights out. So, we had pigeons for breakfast, ducks for lunch, pigeons and ducks for dinner and if she was good, she got a Chukar. She came to expect every day she'd be forced on birds with the ones she didn't like but, following the rules she came to understand she'd get her Chukar for dessert. This is what FF is all about. The dog must do what he might not want to do but, do it because you said, "Do it". No option.

A dog who is forced fetched and collar conditioned will progress through all phases of training with a much higher success rate and a much faster pace than any dog who is not. Can it be done without? absolutely. Will it take a ton of nagging, repeating, frustrations? A lot more than the forced dog will.

Think of it this way: Would you rather "ask" your kids to remember to take the garbage out every day for a year and say "please" every time. It might get done once a month? Or, would you rather just "TELL" your kids they are supposed to take the garbage out every day and enforce your rule? I think I'd rather tell the kids to take the garbage out than nag them about it every day and only get results when they feel like doing it. Less resentment in the long run.

[Stilly bay]

Happy that was as good an explanation on FF as I have read in a while: in your opinion is there ever a time when you wouldn't want to have a dog go through FF or even find it unneeded?

[Happy Gilmore]

Happy that was as good an explanation on FF as I have read in a while: in your opinion is there ever a time when you wouldn't want to have a dog go through FF or even find it unneeded?

If you're upland hunting, probably more often with a pointing dog possibly. Personally, I would not own a dog that was not force fetched.

[GrousePointer]

Thanks Happy.

I always find this an interesting debate. The explanation I've seen from pointing dog trainers is that they want the dog to understand how to turn pressure off before cementing the concept into the dog with FF. ie - come when called or get a nick from the e-collar, whoa and stay that way or get a nick from the belly, etc.

Either way the process works when done right given the number if people I've talked to who chose to FF train their dog.

[CoryTDF]

Happy that was as good an explanation on FF as I have read in a while: in your opinion is there ever a time when you wouldn't want to have a dog go through FF or even find it unneeded?

If you're upland hunting, probably more often with a pointing dog possibly. Personally, I would not own a dog that was not force fetched.

  FF is the only way to go. It's all about " pick this up and do it now" otherwise you really might as well just bring a cat hunting. whats the point if the dog wont get the bird??

[GrousePointer]

Happy that was as good an explanation on FF as I have read in a while: in your opinion is there ever a time when you wouldn't want to have a dog go through FF or even find it unneeded?

If you're upland hunting, probably more often with a pointing dog possibly. Personally, I would not own a dog that was not force fetched.

Probably also depends on whether a dog is getting trialed or not and the venue. In American Field trials I doubt many bother. NSTRA on the other hand, I would think if you want to win or at least be competitive it is imperative.

[Happy Gilmore]

Thanks Happy.

I always find this an interesting debate. The explanation I've seen from pointing dog trainers is that they want the dog to understand how to turn pressure off before cementing the concept into the dog with FF. ie - come when called or get a nick from the e-collar, whoa and stay that way or get a nick from the belly, etc.

Either way the process works when done right given the number if people I've talked to who chose to FF train their dog.

That is pretty backwards in my mind but, I'm more into retrievers. If you're e-collaring a dog, the collar conditioning process is and should be pretty much lumped together with FF as just another step in the process of "finishing" a dog. edit- the process goes hand-in-hand.

If you don't collar condition(CC) and strap a collar on a dog and start working it, you're walking on thin ice. You might get away with it for a while but, you'll crack the ice and just might fall through sooner than later.

[jetjockey]

Here's my 2-cents.  Needing to FF a dog has nothing to do with breeding like Wild said.  As a matter of fact, down here in the south, many people don't want pointing dogs to even have the desire to retrieve because that's not a pointing dogs job.  They want the pointing dog to be 100% steady and to find quail, once the quail are found they send any number of different flushing/retrieving dogs in to flush the birds and retrieve.  They want the pointing dog to be 100% steady through the entire process.  A dog that wants to retrieve can actually mean more training so the dog won't retrieve.  It's a different hunting style than what folks from the PNW are used to. 

As far as FFing pointing dogs, it kinda depends on the dog.  FFing can absolutely instill more confidence in the dog and help other training issues like Happy suggested. The winningest AF Nationals field trial pointing trainer in history FF'ed every single one of his Pointers.  But that was before E-collars.  When retrieving, what is required for a pointing dog is a lot different then what's required for retrieving dogs.  Pointing dogs just don't need to make 200 yard blind retrieves to a duck floating down river.  What typical pointing dog guys need is for the dog to point a bird, and retrieve it to hand.  They need a dog to hunt "dead"  and use its nose to help recover dead birds. 

From my experience, if a dog has even somewhat of a natural retrieve, that retrieve can be brought out without needing to be FF'd.  Even to the point of NSTRA or the MH level of hunt tests.  The thing is understanding how to bring the retrieve out in the dog.  My dog is a perfect example.  I was seriously contemplating FFing her because up until about 3 years old she showed little desire to retrieve. I tried to bring it out but wasn't having a lot of success.  Then one day she brought a quail back to me and laid it at my feet.  That's all it took.  When she got home my wife and I started playing retrieving games with her using treats until she was consistent with bringing a tennis ball back to our feet.  Then I taught her "hold" with the tennis ball which literally only took 3 or 4 sessions.  Then we introduced "hold" into the retrieving game followed by the "give" command.  Next thing you know she was retrieving a tennis ball to hand every time and releasing on the "give" command.  Transferred that into the field and now we have a dog who will retrieve to hand every time up to the pointing dog MH level.  He'll, she can even make blind retrieves up to about 50 yards, which is all I need from her.  Anything more than that and she uses her nose to "re-find" the bird.....  By no means do I think she can keep up with a retriever when it comes to ducks and geese, buts that not what I need her for.  And by no means will a retriever keep up with her in the upland world.  If I had one of the southern style Pointers or Setters with most of the retrieve bred out of them, then at least you can use FF to get a dog with a nice retrieve for 90% of the upland bird hunting crowd. 

Back to the original topic though.  If the dog shows some retrieve, introduce treats and keep the sessions short and sweet.  4-5 retrieves at a time.  When the dog does it correct, give a treat and use positive reinforcement.  It shouldn't take much for the dog to learn how to retrieve.  Then introduce the hold command, and then introduce the "fetch" command with the "hold" command.  Then introduce "fetch", "hold", and "give".  The dog won't come and sit by your side with the bird in its mouth like a retriever will.  But it will retrieve a bird directly to you and release it in your hand when you give the "give" command.  And that's what 99% of the pointer guys need from their dogs.

[jetjockey]

Happy, I don't know how it works with retrievers, so I won't act like I do.  But in the pointing dog world Grouse is 100% correct.  Dogs are taught how to turn the stimulation "off".  In other words, once a command is given, the dog turns the stimulation off by obeying.  For instance, if a dog is being taught to "whoa", you give the "whoa" command and hit the button, as soon as the dog "whoas", you stop the stimulation.  If the dog continues to move, you keep giving the stimulation until it stops, and then you release the button.  The dog learns how to turn the stimulation off by giving the trainer his/her desired command.

[Happy Gilmore]

Happy, I don't know how it works with retrievers, so I won't act like I do.  But in the pointing dog world Grouse is 100% correct.  Dogs are taught how to turn the stimulation "off".  In other words, once a command is given, the dog turns the stimulation off by obeying.  For instance, if a dog is being taught to "whoa", you give the "whoa" command and hit the button, as soon as the dog "whoas", you stop the stimulation.  If the dog continues to move, you keep giving the stimulation until it stops, and then you release the button.  The dog learns how to turn the stimulation off by giving the trainer his/her desired command.

No different. A point on a whoa is the same thing as a sit on a whistle. That's why you can teach a German Shepard to point if you understand how it works.

[Huntbear]

My 18 month old GWP is a fetching fool...  getting him to shut it off and calm down is the issue for me.   Hell, he will fetch till he literally flops over out of breath if I let him.

I actually bought a "chuck-it" to throw balls for him, as I was literally throwing my arm out every day. 

I want to move him to a training dummy of some kind next. (ultimate goal is a combination bird/shed dog)  However, I always have to wear the stupid off of him before you can ever work with him.  He literally bounces pogo stick style on all 4 legs sideways when I bring out the ball.  Takes at least 20 min. of playing ball before I can even begin to get him to listen to me. 

OH, and Stilly is right.. get an old smelly pair of socks, and ball them up... my dog will go out of his way to find my dirty socks and chew/lick/ whatever dogs do with socks....   

I also have a buddy that used a tennis ball that had bacon grease smeared on it to teach his lab mix to fetch as a pup.

[Happy Gilmore]

My 18 month old GWP is a fetching fool...  getting him to shut it off and calm down is the issue for me.   Hell, he will fetch till he literally flops over out of breath if I let him.

I actually bought a "chuck-it" to throw balls for him, as I was literally throwing my arm out every day. 

I want to move him to a training dummy of some kind next. (ultimate goal is a combination bird/shed dog)  However, I always have to wear the stupid off of him before you can ever work with him.  He literally bounces pogo stick style on all 4 legs sideways when I bring out the ball.  Takes at least 20 min. of playing ball before I can even begin to get him to listen to me. 

OH, and Stilly is right.. get an old smelly pair of socks, and ball them up... my dog will go out of his way to find my dirty socks and chew/lick/ whatever dogs do with socks....   

I also have a buddy that used a tennis ball that had bacon grease smeared on it to teach his lab mix to fetch as a pup.

Chuck-it's are a pro-trainers best friend  They teach lots of habits which are hard to break...

[Huntbear]

My 18 month old GWP is a fetching fool...  getting him to shut it off and calm down is the issue for me.   Hell, he will fetch till he literally flops over out of breath if I let him.

I actually bought a "chuck-it" to throw balls for him, as I was literally throwing my arm out every day. 

I want to move him to a training dummy of some kind next. (ultimate goal is a combination bird/shed dog)  However, I always have to wear the stupid off of him before you can ever work with him.  He literally bounces pogo stick style on all 4 legs sideways when I bring out the ball.  Takes at least 20 min. of playing ball before I can even begin to get him to listen to me. 

OH, and Stilly is right.. get an old smelly pair of socks, and ball them up... my dog will go out of his way to find my dirty socks and chew/lick/ whatever dogs do with socks....   

I also have a buddy that used a tennis ball that had bacon grease smeared on it to teach his lab mix to fetch as a pup.

Chuck-it's are a pro-trainers best friend  They teach lots of habits which are hard to break...

I make him sit when I throw the ball.  I make him come straight back to me and drop the ball...  right now that is the only way I have to burn off his energy effeciently.   What is the difference if I am tossing a ball with my hands and arm or using the chuck-it ?  either way the ball is going out, the dog is fetching, and bringing the ball back.  correct?

[wildweeds]

You obviously don't understand the concept of breeding and how genetics work then. 40 years ago they didn't force break retrievers because they didn't have to,the dogs had go go go,enter the show people who bred stuff that shouldn't have been bred,then enter the backyard hunter who breeds the dog they just bought because it was sired by bobby joe shaver the field ch and out of a show ring bitch that most likely finds only a food bowl from the sound of the kibble in the bowl,then the buyers of those pups breed because "It's the most magnificent dog I've ever seen,and they've only ever had one.The desire for retrieving goes by the wayside just as the breeding for color and coat ruined the irish setter and weimeranar.

If you breed two dogs together that sport strong retrieving instinct NATURALLY,the instinct will be magnified in their pups should they be linebred with related ancestors,the tighter you breed, uncle x neice,AuntX nephew,the more concentrated the genetics.In doing such you magnifiy the good and the bad,both of which will be expressed in performance and health areas.

Breed two dogs together that possess minimal to no retrieving instinct and the chances for natural desire is going to be a heck of a lot less.

I agree with you on the fact most pointing dogs do just fine with a trained retrieve which is exactly what huntbear has done.

Here's my 2-cents.  Needing to FF a dog has nothing to do with breeding like Wild said.

[Happy Gilmore]

Well, some here, some there. Genetics play a big role. Talking retrieve, lets talk retrievers? There is not an FC/AFC, NAFC, NFC alive who has not been force fetched. Not a single one. Out of hundreds of thousands of lab retrievers bred a year, not a single one of the finest breedings available has become an FC without being Forced. The "Natural Retriever" concept is typically argued by someone who either has never had a fully force fetched dog or, folks who will really only hunt upland with a pointing breed.

Not to say that a non-force fetched dog can't be a good retriever and hunting partner...they can. But, with a force fetch and a good trainer, almost any 18 month old retriever will out work, out handle and out hunt the most experienced and seasoned veteran hunting partner. I'd rather have a dog hitting the ground experienced with the tools the dog needs before going hunting rather than waiting for a bunch of seasons to roll by allowing the dog to get experience.

Plus, I find dog training an enjoyable way to spend time constructively with my dogs.

[wildweeds]

Happy you missed my point,the way it is now could very well be a direct result of "Drag of the Race".How many dogs do you suppose were forced to retrieve 40 years ago. A perfect example of not needing force retrieving is the BEST RETRIEVER I've ever hunted with. JD was a big chesapeake male that had big nuts and ZERO quit,that dog never lost a bird when I hunted with him,and that was alot.We would go set up on the salt chuck on the skagit and up here in whatcom.That dog disappeard out of sight more than a few times for a wing clipped sprig,My buddy was so worried one day because the dog had been gone an hour and was trying to figure out how to tell his dad he lost the dog.The dog showed up,with the sprig,which was still alive.

My position is that I would rather buy a  pup be it pointing or retrieving from parents  instinctively strong in the perfomance areas.

Well, some here, some there. Genetics play a big role. Talking retrieve, lets talk retrievers? There is not an FC/AFC, NAFC, NFC alive who has not been force fetched. Not a single one. Out of hundreds of thousands of lab retrievers bred a year, not a single one of the finest breedings available has become an FC without being Forced. The "Natural Retriever" concept is typically argued by someone who either has never had a fully force fetched dog or, folks who will really only hunt upland with a pointing breed.

Not to say that a non-force fetched dog can't be a good retriever and hunting partner...they can. But, with a force fetch and a good trainer, almost any 18 month old retriever will out work, out handle and out hunt the most experienced and seasoned veteran hunting partner. I'd rather have a dog hitting the ground experienced with the tools the dog needs before going hunting rather than waiting for a bunch of seasons to roll by allowing the dog to get experience.

Plus, I find dog training an enjoyable way to spend time constructively with my dogs.

[Stilly bay]

Well, some here, some there. Genetics play a big role. Talking retrieve, lets talk retrievers? There is not an FC/AFC, NAFC, NFC alive who has not been force fetched. Not a single one. Out of hundreds of thousands of lab retrievers bred a year, not a single one of the finest breedings available has become an FC without being Forced. The "Natural Retriever" concept is typically argued by someone who either has never had a fully force fetched dog or, folks who will really only hunt upland with a pointing breed.

I wonder how many could have achieved those titles without FF?
FF seems likes it becoming a knee jerk reaction with most retriever trainer's programs, and in almost all rapid fire- from training to trial programs.

My position is that I would rather buy a  pup be it pointing or retrieving from parents  instinctively strong in the perfomance areas.

it makes me wonder if we might lose something in our dogs by relying more on FF than breeding. the same way hunting ability fell to the wayside when show breeders focused on looks and forgot about hunting ability.

[GrousePointer]

Couple thoughts...

Retrievers in Britain are not force fetched. That applies to the field trial type and otherwise. What's different over there?

I don't believe in the trained point concept. I have a Pointer that is nothing but a meat dog and he only loosely listens to the word whoa. But that dog will stick a point and hold it all day. Training had nothing to do with making that happen. Breeding did.

Thoughts?

[Huntbear]

Couple thoughts...

Retrievers in Britain are not force fetched. That applies to the field trial type and otherwise. What's different over there?

I don't believe in the trained point concept. I have a Pointer that is nothing but a meat dog and he only loosely listens to the word whoa. But that dog will stick a point and hold it all day. Training had nothing to do with making that happen. Breeding did.

Thoughts?

I have no clue to the breeding of my GWP as he is a rescue.  I am his third and if I have my way, last owner.  That said, the dog will sit on point with a freaking sparrow, for 15 min.  I watched him one morning, he was all pointed up but with his nose stuck straight up.  I looked up, and there were 3 doves sitting on the cross arm of the power pole, and he decided they needed pointing out.    He stood there for almost 30 min. before the doves finally left.  He never moved.

So, I guess I should be thankful I have a dog that loves to point, loves to retrieve, and he loves the water too... all on a freak accident that I rescued him from being neglected from a couple in Yakima.  Now, if I could just get him to quit being so dang hard headed about minding in the house....    still he is a great pup and would not trade him for anything, even if I never get him to the point of hunting him.

[wildweeds]

There has been many a field champion that was "Trained" to point" ............... I know the guy who did it.Another trainer had an off breed mutt he "Trained" to point and has the pictures on his website.Another lady I know " Trained " her border collie to point birds.I've hunted with a jack russell terrrier that was a pointing machine on quail,he however was not trained,he just hunts with whoever shows up on his land.Bluemoon on here has posted pictures of a poodle pointing,whether he "trained" it or the dog did it naturally I have no idea. I can guarantee you this though.............. I owned(key word) a dog sired by a 7X AF AA CH that  posessed ZERO instinct to point...................... and she was "Trained" to do so................................. she came from a who's who of setter kennels.

Couple thoughts...

Retrievers in Britain are not force fetched. That applies to the field trial type and otherwise. What's different over there?

I don't believe in the trained point concept. I have a Pointer that is nothing but a meat dog and he only loosely listens to the word whoa. But that dog will stick a point and hold it all day. Training had nothing to do with making that happen. Breeding did.

Thoughts?

[jetjockey]

My point about breeding was more in reference to Pointers and Setters, and the pointing dog breeds.  Natural retrieve is the last thing some people want in Pointers and Setters, because like I said before, receiving duties fall to the dogs bred to retrieve.  And just because a dog is an AKC or AF Champion doesn't mean it's going to throw Champion pups.  I know of NFC's that were bred together that threw crap puppies.  From what I understand Johny Crocket, the last Setter to win Ames, didn't pass down his abilities to his pups either.  On the other hand, there are those dogs who were decent that throw pups who are much better than their parents.  The foundation dog for my trainers breeding program is one of those dogs. It seems that his pups throw good dogs as well, and that's one of the reason I'm breeding my dog to that line.

When speaking about different types of dogs however (pointing dogs and retrievig dogs) you absolutely want to breed for desired traits such as point, retrieve, run, nose, etc..   A pointing dog without natural point or a retriever without natural retrieve are pretty useless, even though you can achieve those through training.  But there is a big difference in teaching a dog to point or retrieve and bringing the natural point and retrieve out in a dog.  It's no different than human sports.  Kobe Bryant has a beautiful natural jump shot, but he still needed to be taught how to perfect it.  Roger Clemens had an amazing throwing motion, but he still had a pitching coach to perfect it.  Dogs are no different, and IMO with pointing dogs, if the dog has any natural retrieve in it, that retrieve can be brought out without FF.  if it doesn't, then FF is the only option.  As far as the OP is concerned, since GSP's typically have natural retrieve, I don't think the dog needs FF from what the OP has said.  He just needs to make it fun for the dog and make it a game with a reward when done correctly.   With a little work he will have a retrieving fool.  At least retrieving to the extent that most pointing breed people need. 

[Roo]

Hijacked!

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[Happy Gilmore]

Happy you missed my point,the way it is now could very well be a direct result of "Drag of the Race".How many dogs do you suppose were forced to retrieve 40 years ago. A perfect example of not needing force retrieving is the BEST RETRIEVER I've ever hunted with. JD was a big chesapeake male that had big nuts and ZERO quit,that dog never lost a bird when I hunted with him,and that was alot.We would go set up on the salt chuck on the skagit and up here in whatcom.That dog disappeard out of sight more than a few times for a wing clipped sprig,My buddy was so worried one day because the dog had been gone an hour and was trying to figure out how to tell his dad he lost the dog.The dog showed up,with the sprig,which was still alive.

My position is that I would rather buy a  pup be it pointing or retrieving from parents  instinctively strong in the perfomance areas.

Well, some here, some there. Genetics play a big role. Talking retrieve, lets talk retrievers? There is not an FC/AFC, NAFC, NFC alive who has not been force fetched. Not a single one. Out of hundreds of thousands of lab retrievers bred a year, not a single one of the finest breedings available has become an FC without being Forced. The "Natural Retriever" concept is typically argued by someone who either has never had a fully force fetched dog or, folks who will really only hunt upland with a pointing breed.

Not to say that a non-force fetched dog can't be a good retriever and hunting partner...they can. But, with a force fetch and a good trainer, almost any 18 month old retriever will out work, out handle and out hunt the most experienced and seasoned veteran hunting partner. I'd rather have a dog hitting the ground experienced with the tools the dog needs before going hunting rather than waiting for a bunch of seasons to roll by allowing the dog to get experience.

Plus, I find dog training an enjoyable way to spend time constructively with my dogs.

I caught that and the retriever reference was off base although, 40 years ago, Every retriever was forced. Brutally forced. I've learned a lot from two of the most famous and successful retriever trainers who did all the winning 40 years ago. That is how I can say with 100% confidence that the Paul Shoemakers, Bert Carlson's, Roy and Jimmy Gonia force fetched every single FC and AFC they've ever made. Jimmy has the record right now for the most FC's and NFC's. Shoemaker trained every single Trainer on how to train....just simple facts there...

Pointers, I agree. I could see a dog with a bit of a natural retrieve completing the single retrieve required to get a title. I thought the retrieve call back was one of the silliest things I've ever seen at a dog event yet considering the "level" of performance/training which I'd expect from a dog who wins an professional level competition. Not putting pointers down but, retrieving a shot bird in a hunting condition should be part of a requirement for what we consider the "highest" level stake in a field trial

just thinking out loud here....don't bash me too hard.

[jetjockey]

The retrieve call back is stupid.  Only a few of the V breeds require it.  It's not required in AF nor do the AKC Pointer, Setter, or Brittany breeds require it. I'm all for it for achieving a hunt test title, but trials aren't hunt tests.  Most people don't understand why it isn't required in trials, nore do they understand why traditional pointing dog field trials are run off horseback.  Traditional pointing dog trials began down here in the south. 100 years ago rich guys quail hunted the big plantations off horseback and they had mule drawn carriages following them with assorted spaniels that they used to flush and retrieve the birds.  Pointing dogs were not expected to, nore did they want them to retrieve.  The original trials really haven't changed, but the hunting has.  IMO that's why venues like NSTRA are becoming more popular and Horseback trials are getting less popular. 

[Stilly bay]

. Not putting pointers down but, retrieving a shot bird in a hunting condition should be part of a requirement for what we consider the "highest" level stake in a field trial

x1000

.  The original trials really haven't changed, but the hunting has.  IMO that's why venues like NSTRA are becoming more popular and Horseback trials are getting less popular. 

 

maybe I am just a meat hunter who loves meat hunting dogs, but out of all the doggy games, NSTRA has always made the most sense to me.
not being allowed to retrieve is like leaving the job half finished.

[jetjockey]

Different strokes for different folks.  Again, down here,where trials started, it is not uncommon to use pointing dogs to find birds and flushing/retrieving dogs to do the flushing and retrieving work.  It's a different type of hunting than we are used to back home.  Quail hunting is as much as a sport as it is a tradition.  Once you begin to realize the differences, you realize why things are the way they are.   Until you've experienced the tradition of southern quail hunting, you just can't understand. 

[GrousePointer]

Different strokes for different folks.  Again, down here,where trials started, it is not uncommon to use pointing dogs to find birds and flushing/retrieving dogs to do the flushing and retrieving work.  It's a different type of hunting than we are used to back home.  Quail hunting is as much as a sport as it is a tradition.  Once you begin to realize the differences, you realize why things are the way they are.   Until you've experienced the tradition of southern quail hunting, you just can't understand.

The same applies to Coverdog, though a big part of the attraction to that is the focus on wild birds. A lot of guys who run in those events or buy dogs from those lines are looking for dogs proven on wild birds instead of pen raised poultry as is seen in the NSTRA. The ones who don't get trialed often get force broke, but that's not universally true either.

I think the reason for NSTRA's increasing popularity is for a couple of reasons. For one, the events can be viewed as effectively an extension of one's hunting season since unlike AF events, you're actually shooting birds. For another, it puts different dog breeds on a level playing field. Coverdog and some horseback events are either strictly Pointer and Setter events or, generally speaking, other breeds don't win. In NSTRA the win record is fairly evenly distributed among all of the breeds.

I honestly don't care if a Pointer or setter has any natural retrieve in it. As stated, it can be trained, and my primary concern with a pointing dog is whether or not it has the athleticism to hunt all day long, whether it can naturally point without much training on my part other than making it more staunch, and whether the dog has a good nose and can hunt. Being highly biddible is a HUGE requirement as well.

If I was looking for a German breed or a Brittany I might have some different priorities.

It takes a special kind of dog to get to and win at Ames. It's those qualities that I want in a Pointer or setter and those have nothing to do with retrieving. But that's my preference and taste and I recognize others have their own requirements and tastes, which is absolutely fine as far as I am concerned.

[Happy Gilmore]

Hunting Dog - Gun Dog Selection and Training: "Retrievers at Work" Kraft Film Productions 11min

Charles Morgan and Snuffy. Old time field trial greats.