Free: Contests & Raffles.
QuoteI got free dog some years ago that an amateur tried to force fetch with channel lock pliers at about that age.I don't think that's appropriate at any age. That or the shock-collar-to-the-groin, or the scream-whoa-and-pick-up-your-dog-by-his-skin-and-throw-him-10-feet-away-from-the-bird "training". I certainly hope nobody on this board uses any of those "techniques" or knowingly uses any trainer that does.
I got free dog some years ago that an amateur tried to force fetch with channel lock pliers at about that age.
Yea we are new to this. She is our first dog. I really want.to do most of the work myself as.i.think it help build that relationship. We have a friend who is going to help us some. We have been keeping it fun for her just doing very basic stuff. Such as Here and heel. Playing with practice dummies. I need too start her on whoa. That one is going to be a toughie I think. She is sooo hyper. One of you mentioned a program is there one you would suggest. The last thing I want to do is mess up our dog.
Happy,I'm no expert on the matter, but I've read a lot of posts by pointing dog trainers who say they would rather do force fetch as the last training item in their program. That they want a dog that is broke to wing, and shot if required, and have them as full of drive and desire as possible going into it. Most of those guys would never force fetch a dog younger than a year.However, I've seen retriever guys frequently say they force fetch dogs under a year.Do you stick to the 6-9 month timeframe regardless of whether they are pointing dogs or retrievers?Again, I'm no trainer, I'm just asking what your take is.
Happy that was as good an explanation on FF as I have read in a while: in your opinion is there ever a time when you wouldn't want to have a dog go through FF or even find it unneeded?
Quote from: Stilly bay on October 05, 2012, 11:44:39 AMHappy that was as good an explanation on FF as I have read in a while: in your opinion is there ever a time when you wouldn't want to have a dog go through FF or even find it unneeded?If you're upland hunting, probably more often with a pointing dog possibly. Personally, I would not own a dog that was not force fetched.
Thanks Happy.I always find this an interesting debate. The explanation I've seen from pointing dog trainers is that they want the dog to understand how to turn pressure off before cementing the concept into the dog with FF. ie - come when called or get a nick from the e-collar, whoa and stay that way or get a nick from the belly, etc.Either way the process works when done right given the number if people I've talked to who chose to FF train their dog.
Happy, I don't know how it works with retrievers, so I won't act like I do. But in the pointing dog world Grouse is 100% correct. Dogs are taught how to turn the stimulation "off". In other words, once a command is given, the dog turns the stimulation off by obeying. For instance, if a dog is being taught to "whoa", you give the "whoa" command and hit the button, as soon as the dog "whoas", you stop the stimulation. If the dog continues to move, you keep giving the stimulation until it stops, and then you release the button. The dog learns how to turn the stimulation off by giving the trainer his/her desired command.
My 18 month old GWP is a fetching fool... getting him to shut it off and calm down is the issue for me. Hell, he will fetch till he literally flops over out of breath if I let him.I actually bought a "chuck-it" to throw balls for him, as I was literally throwing my arm out every day. I want to move him to a training dummy of some kind next. (ultimate goal is a combination bird/shed dog) However, I always have to wear the stupid off of him before you can ever work with him. He literally bounces pogo stick style on all 4 legs sideways when I bring out the ball. Takes at least 20 min. of playing ball before I can even begin to get him to listen to me. OH, and Stilly is right.. get an old smelly pair of socks, and ball them up... my dog will go out of his way to find my dirty socks and chew/lick/ whatever dogs do with socks.... I also have a buddy that used a tennis ball that had bacon grease smeared on it to teach his lab mix to fetch as a pup.
Quote from: Huntbear on October 05, 2012, 03:37:59 PMMy 18 month old GWP is a fetching fool... getting him to shut it off and calm down is the issue for me. Hell, he will fetch till he literally flops over out of breath if I let him.I actually bought a "chuck-it" to throw balls for him, as I was literally throwing my arm out every day. I want to move him to a training dummy of some kind next. (ultimate goal is a combination bird/shed dog) However, I always have to wear the stupid off of him before you can ever work with him. He literally bounces pogo stick style on all 4 legs sideways when I bring out the ball. Takes at least 20 min. of playing ball before I can even begin to get him to listen to me. OH, and Stilly is right.. get an old smelly pair of socks, and ball them up... my dog will go out of his way to find my dirty socks and chew/lick/ whatever dogs do with socks.... I also have a buddy that used a tennis ball that had bacon grease smeared on it to teach his lab mix to fetch as a pup.Chuck-it's are a pro-trainers best friend They teach lots of habits which are hard to break...
Here's my 2-cents. Needing to FF a dog has nothing to do with breeding like Wild said.
Well, some here, some there. Genetics play a big role. Talking retrieve, lets talk retrievers? There is not an FC/AFC, NAFC, NFC alive who has not been force fetched. Not a single one. Out of hundreds of thousands of lab retrievers bred a year, not a single one of the finest breedings available has become an FC without being Forced. The "Natural Retriever" concept is typically argued by someone who either has never had a fully force fetched dog or, folks who will really only hunt upland with a pointing breed. Not to say that a non-force fetched dog can't be a good retriever and hunting partner...they can. But, with a force fetch and a good trainer, almost any 18 month old retriever will out work, out handle and out hunt the most experienced and seasoned veteran hunting partner. I'd rather have a dog hitting the ground experienced with the tools the dog needs before going hunting rather than waiting for a bunch of seasons to roll by allowing the dog to get experience. Plus, I find dog training an enjoyable way to spend time constructively with my dogs.
Well, some here, some there. Genetics play a big role. Talking retrieve, lets talk retrievers? There is not an FC/AFC, NAFC, NFC alive who has not been force fetched. Not a single one. Out of hundreds of thousands of lab retrievers bred a year, not a single one of the finest breedings available has become an FC without being Forced. The "Natural Retriever" concept is typically argued by someone who either has never had a fully force fetched dog or, folks who will really only hunt upland with a pointing breed.
My position is that I would rather buy a pup be it pointing or retrieving from parents instinctively strong in the perfomance areas.
Couple thoughts...Retrievers in Britain are not force fetched. That applies to the field trial type and otherwise. What's different over there?I don't believe in the trained point concept. I have a Pointer that is nothing but a meat dog and he only loosely listens to the word whoa. But that dog will stick a point and hold it all day. Training had nothing to do with making that happen. Breeding did.Thoughts?
Happy you missed my point,the way it is now could very well be a direct result of "Drag of the Race".How many dogs do you suppose were forced to retrieve 40 years ago. A perfect example of not needing force retrieving is the BEST RETRIEVER I've ever hunted with. JD was a big chesapeake male that had big nuts and ZERO quit,that dog never lost a bird when I hunted with him,and that was alot.We would go set up on the salt chuck on the skagit and up here in whatcom.That dog disappeard out of sight more than a few times for a wing clipped sprig,My buddy was so worried one day because the dog had been gone an hour and was trying to figure out how to tell his dad he lost the dog.The dog showed up,with the sprig,which was still alive.My position is that I would rather buy a pup be it pointing or retrieving from parents instinctively strong in the perfomance areas.Quote from: Happy Gilmore on October 05, 2012, 05:22:03 PMWell, some here, some there. Genetics play a big role. Talking retrieve, lets talk retrievers? There is not an FC/AFC, NAFC, NFC alive who has not been force fetched. Not a single one. Out of hundreds of thousands of lab retrievers bred a year, not a single one of the finest breedings available has become an FC without being Forced. The "Natural Retriever" concept is typically argued by someone who either has never had a fully force fetched dog or, folks who will really only hunt upland with a pointing breed. Not to say that a non-force fetched dog can't be a good retriever and hunting partner...they can. But, with a force fetch and a good trainer, almost any 18 month old retriever will out work, out handle and out hunt the most experienced and seasoned veteran hunting partner. I'd rather have a dog hitting the ground experienced with the tools the dog needs before going hunting rather than waiting for a bunch of seasons to roll by allowing the dog to get experience. Plus, I find dog training an enjoyable way to spend time constructively with my dogs.
. Not putting pointers down but, retrieving a shot bird in a hunting condition should be part of a requirement for what we consider the "highest" level stake in a field trial
. The original trials really haven't changed, but the hunting has. IMO that's why venues like NSTRA are becoming more popular and Horseback trials are getting less popular.
Different strokes for different folks. Again, down here,where trials started, it is not uncommon to use pointing dogs to find birds and flushing/retrieving dogs to do the flushing and retrieving work. It's a different type of hunting than we are used to back home. Quail hunting is as much as a sport as it is a tradition. Once you begin to realize the differences, you realize why things are the way they are. Until you've experienced the tradition of southern quail hunting, you just can't understand.