retrieve question

[Roo]

So we have 9 month old GSP who is wonderful. She is still pretty clumsy and growing. She is doing really good with some basic commands such as Here and Heal. She only fetches when she feels like it. some times when we are playing with the dummy she goes nuts for it and other times she takes off after it gets to it looks at it and leaves it. So basically right now she is only retrieving on her terms. Any tips on how to turn this corner?

[gasman]

Keep it fun and keep her interested.
If she is excited, play with her and then stop.
The key is to stop before she gets bored with fetching, then she will want to fetch more 

and thats my 

[GrousePointer]

Force fetch is probably the way to go. But I'd keep things fun for the dog for now and let it be a pup. If the dog is gun proofed take it hunting for now and revisit this next year if it's still an issue.

Hire a pro to do the force fetch job if that's what it comes to and if you've never done it before. 

[Stilly bay]

nothing wrong with FF, I have no problem with it what so ever, especially if its part of the program you are using or the dog you are working with has no prey drive. BUT, if you are not using a program and already planning on integrating FF with it, I strongly feel there are other avenues to explore besides FF.

FF is a great tool, but not the only tool in the box and not something to be executed by a novice.

[wildweeds]

force fetching a 9 month old pup is akin to expecting college level math from your kindergartner........... screw that young dogs mind up and you'll have to deal with it for a lifetime.I got  free dog some years ago that an amateur tried to force fetch with channel lock pliers at about that age.Between that and the  incessant heeling  he was taught the dog was a wreck for 2 seasons with me before he started to come around,he was 5 when I got him.

I'd personally let the dog have this season and next depending on how much ground time afield is achieved  before excercising heavy training.

[Stilly bay]

I got  free dog some years ago that an amateur tried to force fetch with channel lock pliers at about that age.

I don't think that's appropriate at any age.  That or the shock-collar-to-the-groin, or the scream-whoa-and-pick-up-your-dog-by-his-skin-and-throw-him-10-feet-away-from-the-bird "training".

I certainly hope nobody on this board uses any of those "techniques" or knowingly uses any trainer that does.

yeesh, thats why my unruly pups will never go to a trainer.

to the OP,  what are you using for retrieves and how long does your usual training session last?  have you tried using a rolled up sock? there isn't a German shorthair on the planet that doesn't love a good ripe sock.

[wildweeds]

Apparntly you missed the part about it being an amateur doing the force fetching............. the need to force fetch is the product of unthought out breeding IMO.

I got  free dog some years ago that an amateur tried to force fetch with channel lock pliers at about that age.

I don't think that's appropriate at any age.  That or the shock-collar-to-the-groin, or the scream-whoa-and-pick-up-your-dog-by-his-skin-and-throw-him-10-feet-away-from-the-bird "training".

I certainly hope nobody on this board uses any of those "techniques" or knowingly uses any trainer that does.

[Roo]

Yea we are new to this. She is our first dog. I really want.to do most of the work myself as.i.think it help build that relationship.  We have a friend who is going to help us some. We  have been keeping it fun for her just doing very basic stuff. Such as  Here and heel.  Playing with practice dummies. I need too start her on whoa. That one is going to be a toughie I think. She is sooo hyper. One of you mentioned a program is there one you would suggest. The last thing I want to do is mess up our dog.

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[justsomedude]

Yea we are new to this. She is our first dog. I really want.to do most of the work myself as.i.think it help build that relationship.  We have a friend who is going to help us some. We  have been keeping it fun for her just doing very basic stuff. Such as  Here and heel.  Playing with practice dummies. I need too start her on whoa. That one is going to be a toughie I think. She is sooo hyper. One of you mentioned a program is there one you would suggest. The last thing I want to do is mess up our dog.

I was/am in the same boat as you as far as being new to training a bird dog.  I've been using the Perfect Start/Perfect Finish videos and would highly recommend them.  Tons of great tips and I've had really good success so far.  The whoa process in the video is fairly simple and my dog picked it up quick, but it is a process.  Best of luck!

[Blackjaw]

I have used Jim Dobbs method to 'force fetch' 3 spaniels. Explanations at http://dobbsdogs.com/library/retrievers/rjpart1.html.

After FF three dogs the main things I found are:

1. All dogs are different. It is up to you to determine the age your dog is ready for FF.
1. Build a training table. You can always store stuff on it in between dogs and clear it off when you need it.
2. Short training sessions: When I train 'hold' and 'fetch' I try to do 3 five minute sessions a day as it is less stressful on the dog.
3. Lots of quite praise/petting when they are doing things right.
4. You are probably doing it right if your dog willingly jumps up on the table when you open the door.
5. Don't attempt if you don't think you have the temperment. You need to stay calm and consistent.

[Happy Gilmore]

Pointers aren't even force fetched? Someone using pliars definately isn't force fetching. I've never seen a pointer with anything more than what I'd call a "soft force or, force hold".

Pointers guys do not understand force fetch nor do retriever guys understand how little FF is required of a pointer. Take a pointer to a guy who is experienced with Retrievers and you'll likely have a big fat mess on your hands. Actually, I'll almost guarantee you'll have a mess. (depending upon who's eyes are looking at the dog of course and what level of training was expected in the first place)Take a retriever to a pointer guy and you'll likely have a half force fetched dog who is confused because pointer guys don't complete FF allowing the animal to start understanding pressure and how to learn. 

I FF all my dogs and some for friends. They all run happy and are taken to the level which is appropriate for the task they'll be expected to perform. From the comments in this particular thread I see that few people here actually understand FF and more have never seen a properly FF'd animal.

I want to FF pups between 6-9 months. Do it later than that and it becomes more difficult and the dog has less of a chance to understand what you are asking it to do because he has established a mind set of "how things will be" with your relationship. If you think FF is about picking up a bird and bringing it back to you, you don't understand FF and have probably never worked with a properly FF'd dog.

[GrousePointer]

Happy,

I'm no expert on the matter, but I've read a lot of posts by pointing dog trainers who say they would rather do force fetch as the last training item in their program. That they want a dog that is broke to wing, and shot if required, and have them as full of drive and desire as possible going into it. Most of those guys would never force fetch a dog younger than a year.

However, I've seen retriever guys frequently say they force fetch dogs under a year.

Do you stick to the 6-9 month timeframe regardless of whether they are pointing dogs or retrievers?

Again, I'm no trainer, I'm just asking what your take is.

[Happy Gilmore]

Happy,

I'm no expert on the matter, but I've read a lot of posts by pointing dog trainers who say they would rather do force fetch as the last training item in their program. That they want a dog that is broke to wing, and shot if required, and have them as full of drive and desire as possible going into it. Most of those guys would never force fetch a dog younger than a year.

However, I've seen retriever guys frequently say they force fetch dogs under a year.

Do you stick to the 6-9 month timeframe regardless of whether they are pointing dogs or retrievers?

Again, I'm no trainer, I'm just asking what your take is.

Force fetching at a young age makes all the difference in the world in my opinion. It all depends on the dog. You don't take anything "out" of the dog, what you're doing is putting "in" an understanding of how to deal with presure and teaching the dog how to properly respond when you apply pressure. It is a complicated to explain but, this all goes in course with properly collar conditioning the dog. It is part of a bigger picture and package. (if you want to use an e-collar)

I'd rather get a young dog anyday than a 2 year old wirehair that has learned to eat birds because she can, runs from you when she gets a bird, nips at the handler and hands when a little pressure is applied because she was never taught how to properly deal/handle pressure(from a lead, not a collar) etc, etc, etc.

Someone noted you can't FF some dogs because they are softer. This cannot be more untrue or wrong. An individual person may not have the experience to properly FF a dog who is soft and rolls over when you pinch an ear or whatever you do. A soft dog will gain an amazing amount of confidence and structure which allows them to become excellent performers in the field. FF gives the dog structure and an understanding of communication with the trainer. Soft dogs, when properly FF'd come out of their shell because they are taught to understand pressure(either real or often it can be "perceived" pressure during training which can be something as simple as handler body language).

My current personal dogs are probably the "softest" ones I've ever FF'd. Both extremely sensitive to pressure in the beginning, held grudges and got sulky. Cried, avoided it, attempts to bolt etc. I have Chesapeakes. Training, FF'ing and the dogs understanding what you are asking produces very good results. Come watch my two Chessies work anytime. I think they turned out pretty good. I've neither passed a MH test or completed a field trial but, we've gotten to the end in both venues which I'm happy with for this year. Training doesn't stop. The bottom line is, if a dog is asked to do something which has not been properly explained, taught and repeated you will have a pile of poop for a dog on your hands.

The toughest ever was a 3 year old, out of control "British"(show lab). I spent 2 weeks teaching "hold". Making the dog simply hold the bumper brought on screaming, crying, rolling around and just having a big tantrum. This was with ZERO stimulation. Simply opening the dogs' mouth and putting a bumper in it. The dog had learned via owners that she could get out of anything with her big fake act. Another 3 weeks on a "soft force" (very light ear pinch)and obedience. During force hold we started collar conditioning, followed up by obedience and more collar conditioning. The dog learned how to handle itself, started to understand it had a "job" and became a good member of the family again. Often through the process you can find something the dog is willing to "work" for that gives you a reward system. This yellow dog was bat-crazy-nuts for Chukar. Didn't care for ducks or pigeons but, Chukar...lights out. So, we had pigeons for breakfast, ducks for lunch, pigeons and ducks for dinner and if she was good, she got a Chukar. She came to expect every day she'd be forced on birds with the ones she didn't like but, following the rules she came to understand she'd get her Chukar for dessert. This is what FF is all about. The dog must do what he might not want to do but, do it because you said, "Do it". No option.

A dog who is forced fetched and collar conditioned will progress through all phases of training with a much higher success rate and a much faster pace than any dog who is not. Can it be done without? absolutely. Will it take a ton of nagging, repeating, frustrations? A lot more than the forced dog will.

Think of it this way: Would you rather "ask" your kids to remember to take the garbage out every day for a year and say "please" every time. It might get done once a month? Or, would you rather just "TELL" your kids they are supposed to take the garbage out every day and enforce your rule? I think I'd rather tell the kids to take the garbage out than nag them about it every day and only get results when they feel like doing it. Less resentment in the long run.

[Stilly bay]

Happy that was as good an explanation on FF as I have read in a while: in your opinion is there ever a time when you wouldn't want to have a dog go through FF or even find it unneeded?

[Happy Gilmore]

Happy that was as good an explanation on FF as I have read in a while: in your opinion is there ever a time when you wouldn't want to have a dog go through FF or even find it unneeded?

If you're upland hunting, probably more often with a pointing dog possibly. Personally, I would not own a dog that was not force fetched.