Shot a 2 point, going to court, any advice?

[skywalker253]

First of all let me say I am sorry for your temporary lapse in judgment,but ignorance of the law is not an excuse. I learned this the hard way myself.

Not sure if this has been said already but, a gross misdemeanor comes with the potential of up to a $5,000 fine and/or a year in jail. Not sure of the repercussions as far as hunting and/or firearm rights. From the RCW's that have been posted it looks like you could possibly lose your hunting rights for the two years.

This offense does not fall under the mandatory minimums law (with the exception of the hunting rights); so the judge could decide to be more or less lenient when it comes to sentencing.

Since it is a criminal charge, your first appearance in court will be an arraignment; this is where you enter a plea, you wont be sentenced. Personally, I suggest you plead not guilty and talk to a lawyer. The lawyer can work with the prosecutor to work out a plea deal. This is your best bet since you will have to make more than one appearance in court anyway. Going to a jury trial would be a huge mistake, you have far too much evidence against you and two law enforcement officers who will testify against you. Good intentions mean nothing in a court of law and your three mistakes will weigh heavily against you with a jury.   

If this is your very first criminal offense and if your attorney is worth his or her salt, you will probably be spared any jail time. You are more than likely looking at a fine in the neighborhood of $500-$1,000, loss of hunting rights for a period of time (two years), and probably two years of probation. Again, all this could be more or less depending on the deal that is worked out with the prosecutor. But,remember our criminal justice system is based on a points system, meaning the more criminal offenses you have on your record the more points you have, the stiffer the penalty you will receive.

For what its worth, I hope this helps and good luck.

This is the best and most useful post in this topic. This guy is spot on. You need to get a lawyer. Had you not complicated your situation with additional mistakes, I would agree with the others who said not to get a lawyer. Don't get a lawyer out of your home town, or ask for the case be moved into your county. The county you offended in is familar with the charges and how they are enforced. Example-Moving it from a small county in South Eastern WA to Seattle, would be suicide. You will want to contact the top 3 lawyers in the county, which the violation took place in. They know the judges personally and are likely FREINDS with them. It makes for a much easier plea negotiation. I keep reading $5000 for lawyer fee's in the forum? That seems way out in left field. A member of our hunting camp shot a 2 point, tried to lie, etc. It cost him $1200 retainer fee and an additional $500 to handle the case. The lawyer will enter your plea for you at your first apperance. You should pled not guilty. This keeps the door open for negotiation. This is where you get the value for the money you are paying your attorney. They will negotiate on your behalf to try and minimize the charges and fee's to you. It is easy to say "don't get a lawyer" but when your standing in the court room with 50 plus people in the room hearing your case, dealing with a judge, it's not that easy. You have to be quick, know the laws, and on your A-Game or the judge will get frusterated with you and end the hearing. Then you will get nailed. You will likely get deferred prosecution with a good attorney, pay a fine, pay resitution to the court, and pay to get your gun back. I don't see you losing hunting privledges on a first offense.

You guys that say he needs a lawyer are probably right (I'm not arguing.....I'm just trying to understand).  To me, it seems pretty simple that he is guilty of shooting a 2 point like he admits.  So, why would he plead not guilty?  Isn't that lying?

Seems like a guilty person would go in without a lawyer and plead guilty and take the the punishment?  Why plead not guilty?  Is it just because it was an honest mistake that he would want to plead not guilty and try to get the charge lowered?       Just trying to understand.

The same reason why a murderer kills 5 woman, then gets caught red handed. They always plead not guilty, because they keep some leverage. Plead guilty and your at the mercy of the courts. Plead not guilty and now you have the ability to plea bargain to reduce the penalties. Guilty plea comes with a stiff penalty and is pretty straight forward. Likely the death penalty in a murder case. Plea bargaining is basically saying "I'm guilty, but I'm going to make you prove it."which costs the courts money. The courts would rather negotiate to get the case resolved. Its not like the offender gets off. They still get jail time, fines, etc. But they likely won't get the death penalty because the plea bargained to work with the courts. Usually involves ratting someone else out. Big leap from making a mistake on shooting a big game animal, but the law is the law and they work off facts, statements, structure, etc. It is all relative....

[boneaddict]

A friend did it, cost him his priviledges for 2 years.   Can't remember how much he paid in fines.  He thought he shot a three up to the point of them confiscating the deer.   He could hang a ring on the point but wasn't an inch long......

[skywalker253]

First of all let me say I am sorry for your temporary lapse in judgment,but ignorance of the law is not an excuse. I learned this the hard way myself. 

actually, it is.  where there is no intent to break the law, no law is broken.  that has been the case since our "free" country was founded.  unfortunately, this is yet another myth that has been passed down for so long that it has become common to find such error from judges top cops to even lawyers. 

sad, but just looking at our laws and regulations now, it "should" be true more so now than ever.

Not entirely accurate.  Our justice system is based on "Old English Commonlaw", even the laws created after America won independence are based on the English common law.

What you are referring to as intent or lack of intent is called "malice aforethought"  and only goes to determine the degree of guilt if found guilty but can sometimes be used to find a person innocent in certain cases. 

Breaking the law is breaking the law, always has been. "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" is based on a quote from the 1500's and just like our current laws is based in English commonlaw.  It was a successful argument by the prosecution pointing out that if a precedent were set then everybody would say they didn't mean to do it.  Just a little stuff I remember from college, law classes were definitely my favorites.

Back to the topic, the OP made a mistake and I am willing to bet accepts a plea deal.  I admire him for not leaving the deer there as a lot of people do and it makes me sick to see the waste.

Actually, you didn't really disagree with me.  However, you did make one big mistake.  You mentioned (what you "learned") back in school.  Frankly put, our schools are a mess, and what is being taught on all levels needs to be taken with a LARGE grain of salt. 

Breaking the law is not just breaking the law.  There is not one person on this forum that hasn't broken some law in the last day, week, month, year....  it's impossible with our gigantic, monstrosity of a government.  And frankly, way to many people warship the law and look far too down on other's that might have broken a law.   

What if he has accidentally shot the 2 pt and just walked off?  Would you have thought less or more of him?  Accidents happen.... and accidents are NOT breaking the law.  Breaking the law is when one purposly sets out to shoot a 2 pt.

So if I got to a bar and have a couple of beers, then get in an accident and kill someone, is that NOT breaking the law? It was an accident and I didn't mean to kill someone. My point is that the law has to draw the line somewhere. The law is the law. In this case a the courts take into consideration, that mistakes happen. That is why the penalty is UP TO A $5000 fine, loss of hunting privledges, etc. If it was an outright poaching of a deer, then he would likely get the maximum penalty enforced. Shooting a 2 point is a common hunting offense, which happens in most cases by accident or carelessness. First offenses come with a very reasonable/mild penalty. Again...they have to draw the line somewhere and hold people accountable to a certain degree. Otherwise 2 points would be getting shot all over the place and everyone would claim it was an accident, please let me off. Every hunter has made a mistake, but they vary by degree.

[hunterrcc]

What brand & power binos and spotting scope do you own and what did you use to look at the deer to see the 3 points?

I second this. Another mistake is coming on here before your court date.
The prosecutor will be checking your Facebook and any other forum from his smart phone...............Loose lips .....Sinks Ships

What power binos and spotting scope and brand do you use or did you use.  I would like to know?

[260Rem]

I had a friend years ago that had a pile of deer in front of him.  He shot the spike, walked up there and he had actually shot a doe.  He hauled tail.  In my opionion that was wrong.  I would have taken the doe and hoped I didn't get caught.  I was a lot younger then.

The legal vs. moral thing you did was right as far as not wasting it, if in fact you made a "mistake" instead of intentially poaching it.  You F-ed up by hiding it in your rig.  Makes you look bad.  Not sure how old you are but this is something that I would have also done in my 20's. 

For what its worth I actually think you deserve to get a record for this.  But I also think that this is something that won't define you as a person as long as you don't let it.  Get an attorney, plead not guilty, then plead it out and get on with your life.  If this is the worst thing you do in life, you are doing better than most.

With all of that that I said I don't condone what you did and question where were you binos, etc.  that being said I'm sure you have asked yourself these questions a lot more than anyone can imagine.

[GEARHEAD]

I agree with 260, contest, reach a fair plea deal...intent carries alot of weight, so focus on dealing with that little word. accidents do happen. you will be fine, not the end of the world. a friend of mine made a slightly worse mistake, or maybe not really a mistake, by being party, to a party shoot of three elk. gamie enterered their camp, asked who did the shooting, and the two that shot the three animals immediately stated that it was they, and they knew that they were wrong. they were cited dealt with it, and one became a Cop years later and still is. not the end of the world dont let it get ya down, just get the best deal you can. good luck.

[BOWHUNTER45]

Sounds like your toast on this one now you admitted guilt ...never ever do that ! Just go tell the judge exactly what took place and hopefully he understands and cuts you a deal ...    Good luck ! its always fun dealing with them 

[skywalker253]

Sounds like your toast on this one now you admitted guilt ...never ever do that ! Just go tell the judge exactly what took place and hopefully he understands and cuts you a deal ...    Good luck ! its always fun dealing with them 

You always tell the truth once your turned in and questioned. What was he suppose to do? He hide the deer inside his truck. What is he going to say when they take ballistics off his rifle and match it to the deer. Once your questioned, its best to tell the truth and plea out on a first offense. Despite admitting guilt, you can still plead not guilty at his arraignment trial. Otherwise he would get the book thrown at him for trying to lie.

[GEARHEAD]

Word!

[Chappyk16]

If his story is true, compared to oh *censored* i got caught on the side of the highway. I give him props for owing up to his mistake, most people wouldnt do that.

[dscubame]

If his story is true, compared to oh *censored* i got caught on the side of the highway. I give him props for owing up to his mistake, most people wouldnt do that.

It was a mistake but why turn yourself in for such serious punishment?  Sounds sort of ridiculous to me.  It's not like turning yourself in reverses what happened.  If it makes you feel better donate 2k to a charity of your choice as self induced punishment and move on.

[hunterrcc]

my guess from the no answer of this question is that he is one of the guys I see using no binos hunting 3point of better units! Or he has some little low power binos that are as good as not having a pair.   
 SORRY BUT HIDING THE BUCK IN YOUR BACKSEAT, REALLY!  THEN GOING ON HERE TO GET HELP.  well here is my help save up some money go buy a pair of at least 10x50 binos  quality brand but doesn't have to be some $2K brand.  Leupold has great binos good quality and not too expensive!  And make sure you know it has 3 points.  Way too many people shoot 2 points because they don't own good enough optics and number two they rush their shot!

What brand & power binos and spotting scope do you own and what did you use to look at the deer to see the 3 points?

I second this. Another mistake is coming on here before your court date.
The prosecutor will be checking your Facebook and any other forum from his smart phone...............Loose lips .....Sinks Ships

What power binos and spotting scope and brand do you use or did you use.  I would like to know?

[skywalker253]

If his story is true, compared to oh *censored* i got caught on the side of the highway. I give him props for owing up to his mistake, most people wouldnt do that.

It was a mistake but why turn yourself in for such serious punishment?  Sounds sort of ridiculous to me.  It's not like turning yourself in reverses what happened.  If it makes you feel better donate 2k to a charity of your choice as self induced punishment and move on.

He did not turn himself in. He was turned in by another hunter, and they caught him with the deer in the back seat of his truck.

[skywalker253]

my guess from the no answer of this question is that he is one of the guys I see using no binos hunting 3point of better units! Or he has some little low power binos that are as good as not having a pair.   
 SORRY BUT HIDING THE BUCK IN YOUR BACKSEAT, REALLY!  THEN GOING ON HERE TO GET HELP.  well here is my help save up some money go buy a pair of at least 10x50 binos  quality brand but doesn't have to be some $2K brand.  Leupold has great binos good quality and not too expensive!  And make sure you know it has 3 points.  Way too many people shoot 2 points because they don't own good enough optics and number two they rush their shot!

What brand & power binos and spotting scope do you own and what did you use to look at the deer to see the 3 points?

I second this. Another mistake is coming on here before your court date.
The prosecutor will be checking your Facebook and any other forum from his smart phone...............Loose lips .....Sinks Ships

What power binos and spotting scope and brand do you use or did you use.  I would like to know?

Amen! I think one of the reasons hunters rush their shot on the east side, is all the surrounding hunters. Guys everywhere on opening day and people get caught up in the competitive situation and rush their judgement and shot. See it every year where I hunt. Shoot your deer, and run with your knife in one hand and your tag in your mouth. We can credit this to all the posted land, which piles hunters on top of each other. Does not seem very safe. I hope Wa becomes a draw state.

[OutdoorFreak97]

Rule #1 safety
Rule #2 be sure of you're target
Rule..... You took the hunters safety course, I understand its easier said than done, I should be better about it also
But seriously guys, if you aren't sure don't shot
It's not worth it, I saw someone with a not even legal 2 point with an eye guard about 3/4" in the big cooler
He's lucky he didn't get busted, maybe he did?

Sorry to here about your mishap man, it sucks.