Glock 20 10mm

[Jim the Plumber]

Interesting conversation.
I would task us to start from the low ready with your choice of handgun, and see how many A zone hits you can make in 1.5 seconds form 7 yards out.
I'll try it later with my Glock 20 SF and report back.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

Since we just rolled to 45's I like the Rowland, but muzzle flash is an issue. I rock 45 supers often in the bear backup rig. Thinking that you will get 16 rounds off is ludicrous.....unless you piss your pants and start flinging from 70 yards. I will spend an extra half second to get #1 off true.

I have had firearms training and am aware of what I am capable of. Will I get all 16 rounds off before a bear closed the distance to me NO! But you can bet that I will be unloading that pistol on that bear at point blank range while it is attacking me. You will have already spent all six of your shots.

You can not think that one shot is going to stop a charging bear. You can shoot a bear with a 300 win mag and still have it keep running.

 

And every shot I take after the first shot will likely be faster and more accurate than consecutive shots that I would make with a big magnum six shooter.

[NW-GSP]

Since we just rolled to 45's I like the Rowland, but muzzle flash is an issue. I rock 45 supers often in the bear backup rig. Thinking that you will get 16 rounds off is ludicrous.....unless you piss your pants and start flinging from 70 yards. I will spend an extra half second to get #1 off true.

I have had firearms training and am aware of what I am capable of. Will I get all 16 rounds off before a bear closed the distance to me NO! But you can bet that I will be unloading that pistol on that bear at point blank range while it is attacking me. You will have already spent all six of your shots.

You can not think that one shot is going to stop a charging bear. You can shoot a bear with a 300 win mag and still have it keep running.

 

And every shot I take after the first shot will likely be faster and more accurate than consecutive shots that I would make with a big magnum six shooter.

I agree!

[Biggerhammer]

"A zone hits" ?? I've had my Glock's long enough to not have to "Try it later".

[CAMPMEAT]

Witness makes a 10mm that is pretty slick too.

I had an EAA Witness 10mm. It was a piece of junk. Jammed all the time. Sent it in for warrenty 2 times and it came back worse. 

I had a witness in 45acp and hate myself for selling it...either I got a good one, or you got a bad one.

I think I got a bad one. The EAA Witness reviews were very good on the full size ones. I had the compact. Brian Enos is supposed to be Mr. EAA if I remember right.

[KFhunter]

Another thing to consider is a big magnum revolver shooters will limp wrist them, you have no choice, the recoil must go somewhere.

This is counter intuitive to shooting autos, where you cannot limp wrist them, you must allow the slide to operate a full cycle.
 

[high country]

Since we just rolled to 45's I like the Rowland, but muzzle flash is an issue. I rock 45 supers often in the bear backup rig. Thinking that you will get 16 rounds off is ludicrous.....unless you piss your pants and start flinging from 70 yards. I will spend an extra half second to get #1 off true.

I know someone who has dumped a brownie with a 10mm with one shot on the charge and jack brittingham has a brownie getting dumped by a 45win mag pistol with one hit. 

If you have a pissed off sharp tooth you have enough time for one pretty decent chance at best.....unless your firearms training ranks you with bob munden, in which case.....what could you possibly need anything but a 45lc.
I have had firearms training and am aware of what I am capable of. Will I get all 16 rounds off before a bear closed the distance to me NO! But you can bet that I will be unloading that pistol on that bear at point blank range while it is attacking me. You will have already spent all six of your shots.

You can not think that one shot is going to stop a charging bear. You can shoot a bear with a 300 win mag and still have it keep running.

[mountainman]

Have stopped 2 full on charges on blackbears, both with revolvers, both with one shot. One with a .44 magnum, the other with a 454 Casull. More important than if it is a Glock 10 or a revolver is making sure the first shot hits the mark. With the proper bullet, its end-game right there. 

[Biggerhammer]

Have stopped 2 full on charges on blackbears, both with revolvers, both with one shot. One with a .44 magnum, the other with a 454 Casull. More important than if it is a Glock 10 or a revolver is making sure the first shot hits the mark. With the proper bullet, its end-game right there. 

You need to shoot a bigger rifle or stop carrying your breakfast around in your pack!

Did you recover either of the bullets used? I was just wondering on how each performed with frontal shots? Curious, I own both Chamberings. I'm a firm believer in big magnums and I eat a late breakfast.

[HuntandFish]

It's fairly simple to me. I have a XD 45 (13rnds) that I carry fishing and other places where 2 legged creatures that may shoot back and be in groups may come in play. However I just got a 329pd for the very reason of this topic, a back country/backup gun. I think those that run through the scenario of a charging bear/attack and picture yourself being able to shoot more than 6 rounds at the animal may need a little more real life experience, or a little more self control. I hope no one will be shooting a bear (out of season/with out a tag) without it actually in the act of attacking you not just barking and grunting trying to intimidate you. Once I have determined it is a real threat the bear will be at less than 7yrds, and if the first shot of .44mag does not stop the animal I will have 5 more shots to shoot the thing while we are wrestling on the ground (assuming it hasn't knocked the gun out of my control). This is why I choose to carry the most powerful cartridge I can carry effectively. The 10mm to me is overkill for 2 legged threats and and under gunned for the scenario I pointed out above.

And on top of that a .44mag is a great back up hunting weapon if something should happen to your primary weapon (which I unfortunately have had happen twice to me now...). Which is a vastly larger likelyhood for the use of a backcountry gun. I think that the more rounds thing comes down to a subconscious thing more than a reality thing. .44mag will do substantially more damage and that's all that counts when a threat from an animal will be immediate and close. 

Thanks,
H&F

[mountainman]

It's fairly simple to me. I have a XD 45 (13rnds) that I carry fishing and other places where 2 legged creatures that may shoot back and be in groups may come in play. However I just got a 329pd for the very reason of this topic, a back country/backup gun. I think those that run through the scenario of a charging bear/attack and picture yourself being able to shoot more than 6 rounds at the animal may need a little more real life experience, or a little more self control. I hope no one will be shooting a bear (out of season/with out a tag) without it actually in the act of attacking you not just barking and grunting trying to intimidate you. Once I have determined it is a real threat the bear will be at less than 7yrds, and if the first shot of .44mag does not stop the animal I will have 5 more shots to shoot the thing while we are wrestling on the ground (assuming it hasn't knocked the gun out of my control). This is why I choose to carry the most powerful cartridge I can carry effectively. The 10mm to me is overkill for 2 legged threats and and under gunned for the scenario I pointed out above.

And on top of that a .44mag is a great back up hunting weapon if something should happen to your primary weapon (which I unfortunately have had happen twice to me now...). Which is a vastly larger likelyhood for the use of a backcountry gun. I think that the more rounds thing comes down to a subconscious thing more than a reality thing. .44mag will do substantially more damage and that's all that counts when a threat from an animal will be immediate and close. 

Thanks,
H&F

Well said!

[DBHAWTHORNE]

I think those that run through the scenario of a charging bear/attack and picture yourself being able to shoot more than 6 rounds at the animal may need a little more real life experience, or a little more self control. I hope no one will be shooting a bear (out of season/with out a tag) without it actually in the act of attacking you not just barking and grunting trying to intimidate you. Once I have determined it is a real threat the bear will be at less than 7yrds, and if the first shot of .44mag does not stop the animal I will have 5 more shots to shoot the thing while we are wrestling on the ground (assuming it hasn't knocked the gun out of my control). This is why I choose to carry the most powerful cartridge I can carry effectively. The 10mm to me is overkill for 2 legged threats and and under gunned for the scenario I pointed out above.



Thanks,
H&F

Sorry but if a bear is within 20 yards of me and charging at me at full tilt it's going to start eating bullets.  I understand it could be a bluff charge (as I have had a bear bluff charge me when I wasn't carrying and it came from 40 yards to 10 yards in short order before stopping). However, I didn't know he was bluff charging until he left. If I had a gun I definitely would have shot that bear and wouldn't have second guessed it. You may not feel it's a threat until it's within 7 yards....however a bear that is actually going to attack you is a threat whether its at 7 yards or 15 yards so I would rather get an early start if it is threatening me.  I owe it to my kids. In that situation I could care less about the life of a single bear. I'm not taking any chances.

In 20 yards and less I can get at least six accurate shots off with a 10mm and still have plenty in reserve for when he is chewing on me (assuming I am even able to retain my weapon.)

[yorketransport]

I've got this all figured out! Why doesn't Glock just make a gun in 45 Win Mag? That would be the best of both worlds. 

When I look at the 10mm from the perspective of a revolver guy (which I would classify myself as) all I can think of is that the 10mm is just a halfway point between the 357 and 41 Mag. Even a 44 Mag isn't that spectacular in the world of hunting revolvers any more. A 475 Linbaugh or 500 JRH is where you get into the serious calibers. I've never seen the need for more than maybe 2 shots with a handgun. But then I do most of my hunting with a large (rifle) caliber single shot pistol which makes a lot of peoples rifles look pretty small bore.

For the semi auto lovers out there the pool of serious calibers is pretty limited. A hot 10mm is pretty sedate compared to a standard 44 mag, but it's hot stuff compared to a standard 45 ACP. That's why somebody needs to design a high capacity 45 Win Mag. Or they just need to make a lite weight version of the Wildey in 475 Wildey mag!

Andrew

[HuntandFish]

DBHAWTHORNE, not trying to be that guy but I am going to reference what I said above, you have to get real with the situation at hand. You are going to shoot off 6 well placed shots in 1.36 seconds? (assuming 30mph run speed) I don't think so. And most bear encounters are going to happen allot closer than 60feet away, as it is surprise that triggers most attacks, just sayin.

It is great to think about all the lead you will be throwing at this animal (to compensate for a lack of energy from a larger caliber) but its not a reality in 99% of the situations.

Again just my 

Thanks,
H&F

[DBHAWTHORNE]

DBHAWTHORNE, not trying to be that guy but I am going to reference what I said above, you have to get real with the situation at hand. You are going to shoot off 6 well placed shots in 1.36 seconds? (assuming 30mph run speed) I don't think so. And most bear encounters are going to happen allot closer than 60feet away, as it is surprise that triggers most attacks, just sayin.

It is great to think about all the lead you will be throwing at this animal (to compensate for a lack of energy from a larger caliber) but its not a reality in 99% of the situations.

Again just my 

Thanks,
H&F

Certainly in a situation where I can only get off one marginal shot the bigger the caliber the better.  I don't think there is any disputing that and I'm not trying to make such a claim. If  I hit them in the brain/nervous system with the 10mm it's going down..in other words...no need for the bigger bullet. However, if I miss the brain/nervous system then it comes down to the size, penetration and/or number of holes I can put in the threat (as even your choice of side arm isn't going to drop the animal absent a brain/nervous system hit).. The 10mm will have sufficient penetration (albeit...no argument that more is certainly better)...If I used size as my primary factor in a lower 48 backwoods carry gun then I would be carrying a .454 Casull or larger (as they make .454 Casull's in reasonable carry sizes). However there are more factors to that equation.....so "to get real with the situation at hand"... Here we go:


First the odds of me crossing a grizzly in the areas I hunt is low...very, very low. So in reality we are talking about a black bear, mountain lion, wolf, moose or bigfoot  .. I know from a few personal experiences moose don't cut corners extremely well so pretty sure I can handle one of those as long as I have time to react). So now we are down to bigfoot bear, lion and wolf. I have never seen a bigfoot but I am assuming as a fellow primate who diverged from us on the evolutionary chain  .. he is probably just the size of a very large man... As was stated the 10mm is probably overkill for a normal man so it's probably perfectly ideal for a bigfoot....so what do we have next.... I think there is no argument that a 10mm is sufficient for a lion/wolf...(speaking of which... lets say by some rare instance you faced a pack of wolves... would you rather have my 10mm with 16 or a six shooter??... I know what I would choose)

 So now we are back to black bears being the most realistic threat that I may face..... Plenty of black bear have been hunted and killed with a 10mm for me to know for a fact that it is more than sufficient to get the job done effectively with only one vital shot. (Granted with a bigger bullet and equal or more penetration it would/could bleed out faster.) In 1.36 seconds (assuming my gun is holstered and I make a clean draw) I can get off at least two well placed shots with my 10mm. With a .44 mag or larger I am only going to get off one (you might get more but I can't). If I already have the gun at the ready I am going to get off 3-4 with the 10mm and maybe 2 with that .44 mag or larger (and not even confident that second one would be on target). Another thing you are assuming is that the animal solidly connects on it's charge. In reality my training is going to take over and I am going to be shooting and laterally moving... that being the case.. It is possible the bear will miss me and give me an opportunity to put more rounds into him.

On thing I know from experience.. I can get off three accurate rounds from my 10mm before I can get off my second accurate round with the .44mag.

 I probably won't be doing any reloading if a bear is chewing on me.. but if I am able to retain my weapon I will have more hot rounds to unload into that bear at point blank range than I would if I was carrying a six shooter.

The bottom line is this... no matter how much I train I am counting on some misses in this type of situation...that being the case... I choose capacity and manageability in a sufficient package over additional power provided by a larger round.

If by some rare instance I ran across a grizzly and had issues I would certainly be wishing for a larger caliber...but then I would feel that way no matter what handgun I was carrying... That being said.... the 10mm can and will do the job if necessary... but certainly not the ideal choice in regular grizz country.... If I start seeing grizzlies then I will definitely step up the firepower.

The bottom line... unless you simply prefer a six shooter..or you are regularly going into grizzly country.... the 10mm is the perfect backwoods carry gun for the Pacific Northwest.