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Author Topic: Percussion Caps - #11 Magnum or Musket  (Read 22871 times)

Offline Sabotloader

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Percussion Caps - #11 Magnum or Musket
« on: March 04, 2013, 06:04:39 PM »
This article is in the new Hunt Washington Magazine.. If you look at the top of the page on the right you will find a clickable link to the H-W Magazine or click this link to gain access.

http://www.magcloud.com/browse/issue/478415

Todd_ID did a really great job collecting a variety of information getting it in print and then getting it published...

I thought I would drop this article in here directly for your viewing and discussions...  This was the basics of the article, Tood dis a much better job with the art work in the article but I still think you will get the jist of it...

The old Debate…
Musket Caps or #11 caps…

I am not sure it will ever be solved as to which one might be the better choice.  When you are having success with one, why mess with what works?

A few years ago I was working informally with Knight to build a better Western Kit for the Knight DISC Extreme.  As it turns out, I really had no interest in the development with the use of Musket Caps.  My concern was with #11 caps, and I should say the use of #11 Mag caps or the RWS Dynamit Nobel 1075+ caps specifically.

After I had completed my suggested changes to the Western Kit and Knight started producing the revised bolt, I got a note from Knight suggesting that a lot of folks in the Pacific Northwest were not interested in the #11 cap and wanted to use only Musket Caps.  I, personally, was a set back at the popularity of the Musket Cap in the Northwest.  I had tried Musket caps for many years believing what I was told “use Musket Caps they are hotter”.  I did believe that and tried to use them faithfully for a while. 

The first suggestion that I have heard is that the Musket Cap burns hotter than a #11 cap!  And that is correct it does burn hotter than a #11 cap.  But, when compared to a #11 Magnum Cap, RWS 1075+, or the new Remington Caps the temperatures are nearly the same.  The truth of the matter is that a Musket cap can burn longer in duration than do the #11 Magcaps, but not hotter.

The next suggestion that I have heard is the Musket nipple provides more volume to the powder from the cap.  On the surface that may appear to be correct.  When you compare the nipple stack on Musket Nipple to the stack on a #11 nipple the Musket cap can certainly hold more volume.   The reality comes when you turn the nipples over and look at the bottom of the nipple.  Check the flash hole or the Touch Hole, they both allow about the same amount of gas to the powder in a given time period.  This picture is an attempt to show what I have explained.



I would suggest to you if your powder load is dry and under the nipple, there really is not an advantage to the either cap, they both will ignite the powder equally well.  However, if the powder is damp or moist the Musket Cap may give you a hang-fire at best because it burns longer and might dry enough powder to ignite the load.  But again if you have done your part and kept the powder dry – there really should not be an advantage to both caps and remember I am talking about the hotter #11 caps, not the regular or re-enactment #11’s.

Another reason I have heard often for the fondness of a Musket Cap versus a #11 Mag is that the Musket Cap is easier to handle and load with your fingers.  OK! You got me on that one… That is certainly the truth.  My only thought is that I do not want to ‘handle’ either one of them.  They make tools just for that project.  The cappers are more efficient in foul weather – gloved hands in placing the caps on the nipple post squarely and tight.

Since I have brought up ‘Cappers’ I would like to share my thoughts on cappers also.  Brass Cappers are for me the best way to go.  They are usually more compact than plastic ones, offer a good gripping surface and allow easy application of the cap on to the nipple post even in a timely manner and in the worst weather.  This picture shows an example of two cappers that I use.

 

While talking about cappers, there is one problem with the installation of Musket Caps.  Often the Musket Cap needs to be pinched a bit to get them to install snuggly on the post.  In this case the capper might be a detriment.

This leads to another advantage of the #11 Mag Cap.  The cap with its closed convoluted sides is built to be pushed on the post and stretched to fit the post tightly.  If you can find the right Nipple with the post built to cause the cap to stretch you may be in the better of two worlds.

It is my belief that the cap should stick to the nipple post, stretch the convolution of the cap to almost flatten them on the post.  If you accomplish this you will get the added benefits of mounting the cap correctly, it will not fall off while hunting at all and the bigger benefit with the proper fit water or moisture will not get under the cap walls and contaminate the cap.  It becomes nearly water proof and for us hunting in the great Northwest this is no small matter.  I have used and practiced these procedures for several years now and have never had a water fouled cap.

Both of these advantageous are not likely to happen with a Musket Cap. The slits up the walls of the cap make it very difficult for it to become water proof.  Plus I believe you lose the proper fit on the post.  Squeezing/distorting the Musket Cap to fit the post also could provide a water channel for water or moisture to the ignition material in the head of the cap.

It took me awhile to find what I consider the correct nipple for my applications.  Most nipple manufactures provide a nipple stack that will allow you to easily remove a #11 or even Musket Cap because it is more convenient for the hunter shooter to remove a non-used cap.   After some searching I found these nipples that give me exactly what I am looking for.

 

The nipple fits so tight you do have to use a something like a knife blade to peal the cap off the post.  After removal that cap will never be used hunt with again.  I do save them and use them for range sessions.







« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 06:12:29 PM by Sabotloader »
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline Heredoggydoggy

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Re: Percussion Caps - #11 Magnum or Musket
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2013, 06:14:40 PM »
I've used both kinds and can see no great difference, except that Musket Caps, being larger, are easier to handle with cold fingers.  :twocents:
If it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

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Offline flinter

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Re: Percussion Caps - #11 Magnum or Musket
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2013, 06:50:45 PM »
Been using CCI #11 Mag. for years on my T/C Hawken.  I used to get a little dampness once in a while in heavy rains until I figured out that it was seeping thru the nipple threads.  I tape the muzzle and seal the nipple with primer sealer. Now it fires every time. I also fire it every night when hunting in rain.

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: Percussion Caps - #11 Magnum or Musket
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2013, 07:19:31 PM »
I've used both kinds and can see no great difference, except that Musket Caps, being larger, are easier to handle with cold fingers.  :twocents:

and that is one of my big questions... Why would you handle either one of them with your hands at any time...  They make cappers that are protective of the cap just for that reason.  The cappers are much easier to use with or without gloves in warm or rotten cold...

I will agree that for the sidelock shooters out there the Musket cap may be the better cap for them in the sidelock does not offer a straight line path to the powder.  And because of that a longer burning cap would allow the heating of the metal on the way to the powder in those very cold situations.

Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline Heredoggydoggy

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Re: Percussion Caps - #11 Magnum or Musket
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2013, 08:34:27 PM »
When I hunted with a muzzle loader, we removed the cap to get in the truck to go to another area, then put the cap back on once there.  Not the "Never re-use a cap" rule that you advise, but putting a new cap on every time would be a collossal waste of caps.  We carried a capper mainly to reload in case speed was of the essence.

I notice that your Musket Capper flattens the first couple of caps that the "pusher" contacts just like mine did.  Tried to remedy that, and finally just figured on not using the bent ones for anything else but "pushers".  :twocents:
If it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

When Bernie Madoff did it, it's called a "Ponzi Scheme"
When Government does it, it's called "Social Security"

Offline Dan-o

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Re: Percussion Caps - #11 Magnum or Musket
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2013, 08:54:19 PM »
I am a DIE HARD MUSKET CAP guy........    and now you want to introduce facts and data?????

Where were you 25 years ago?

Great write-up and post by the way. 
Member:   Yakstrakgutp (or whatever we are)
I love the BFRO!!!
I wonder how many people will touch their nose to their screen trying to read this...

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: Percussion Caps - #11 Magnum or Musket
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2013, 08:42:38 AM »
When I hunted with a muzzle loader, we removed the cap to get in the truck to go to another area, then put the cap back on once there.  Not the "Never re-use a cap" rule that you advise, but putting a new cap on every time would be a collossal waste of caps.  We carried a capper mainly to reload in case speed was of the essence.

I guess when I wrote that thought I was thinking more of 'rotten weather conditions" where you might what to be sure that the cap seal between the nipple post and cap were intact.  In a normal nice day situation - I would probably do the same - I like saving $ also... but you know there are people that suggest changing the cap out every so often during the hunt just to make sure you have a fresh cap on the post...  That one I just have not been able to do...

Also I would agree using a capper to load is a time savings application and another reason that I do use capper.  In my case I have found that the Tec Cash type cappers really work well for me.  For hunting I use a small short brass capper - only holds 7 caps... but is really built well and good for hunting...



I still look for a capper that has the brass protrusion to push the cap on with... I do not know who made this one or where I found it... but it is a good one...

Quote
I notice that your Musket Capper flattens the first couple of caps that the "pusher" contacts just like mine did.  Tried to remedy that, and finally just figured on not using the bent ones for anything else but "pushers".  :twocents:

Yes, I agree with that... When I was first using Musket cappers I was using the top hat CCI variety but shortly after that I did go to the RWS Dynamit Noble caps that do not have the top hat and will work through a capper better but you have to find the correct capper for them also...
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: Percussion Caps - #11 Magnum or Musket
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2013, 08:53:18 AM »
I am a DIE HARD MUSKET CAP guy........    and now you want to introduce facts and data?????

Where were you 25 years ago?

Great write-up and post by the way.

Have faith Dan o... I am not really trying to tell you to do something different, just suggesting something different might be out there.  When I first stated I was only using Musket caps also as that was what I was told worked!  And you know if I were shooting side hammers and just beginning I would use Musket caps, I would even suggest Musket caps.  It was not until I tried to learn to shoot a 'rock sparker' that some taught me about pouring powder in with the rifle sloped to to the touch hole,,, then tapping the powder over to the touch hole so it would ignite quicker easier...  Then all of a sudden the light came on and I figured if I did the same with percussion guns I could get the powder right out under the nipple especially if I used 3f powder... once I figured that out I really did not need the long burning chacteristics of the Musket cap... + they made cap covers for #11's that made them water proof. - I was all-in.

Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline muzbuster

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Re: Percussion Caps - #11 Magnum or Musket
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2013, 07:00:57 PM »
I have large hands so I choose to use musket caps for 2 reasons. #1- If for some reason I need to put a cap on with my fingers musket caps are much easier to handle.
#2- musket caps are also easier to remove after shooting, makes for faster reloading and I can put one on without looking allowing me to keep my eyes down range on the target longer. :twocents:

Offline buglin4bulls

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Re: Percussion Caps - #11 Magnum or Musket
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2013, 07:31:15 AM »
Musket for me  :tup: plus bigger hole=bigger flame to ignite powder. I never have had a misfire yet.  :tup:
This is the year im going to get drawn, i can feel it. NOT SELECTED, NOT SELECTED, NOT SELECTED, NOT SELECTED, NOT SELECTED, NOT SELECTED... damn :(

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: Percussion Caps - #11 Magnum or Musket
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2013, 07:50:24 AM »
Musket for me  :tup: plus bigger hole=bigger flame to ignite powder. I never have had a misfire yet.  :tup:

But... the Musket nipple does not have a bigger touch hole/Flash hole.  It has a larger stack but when you turn it over to the business end the ignition hole (touch hole) is exactly the same... It gets no more volume of hot gas to the powder than does the #11 Mag caps...

Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline jechicdr

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Re: Percussion Caps - #11 Magnum or Musket
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2013, 10:00:03 PM »
Musket for me  :tup: plus bigger hole=bigger flame to ignite powder. I never have had a misfire yet.  :tup:

But... the Musket nipple does not have a bigger touch hole/Flash hole.  It has a larger stack but when you turn it over to the business end the ignition hole (touch hole) is exactly the same... It gets no more volume of hot gas to the powder than does the #11 Mag caps...



That is probably not true.  You are pushing a gas through the hole.  Gas compresses, so a large volume of gas going through a small hole creates higher pressure which should translate into a higher velocity and longer flame coming out the hole.  If you wanted to prove your point, I would do a high speed photo of the flame coming out of the hole with both types of cap.  If the flame was the same size, I would give you that point, but I suspect you will see a flame size that is consistent with the volume of gas produced by the cap.

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: Percussion Caps - #11 Magnum or Musket
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2013, 08:27:33 AM »

That is probably not true.  You are pushing a gas through the hole.  Gas compresses, so a large volume of gas going through a small hole creates higher pressure which should translate into a higher velocity and longer flame coming out the hole.  If you wanted to prove your point, I would do a high speed photo of the flame coming out of the hole with both types of cap.  If the flame was the same size, I would give you that point, but I suspect you will see a flame size that is consistent with the volume of gas produced by the cap.

I believe you are correct with your statement. The additional point that might be noted is that a #11 Magnum Cap produces the same heat range and pressure as a Musket Cap.  Please note I am saying a MAG cap or even a Dynamit Noble 1075+ cap that produces slightly more.  Regular #11's and re-enactment caps either #11 or musket caps do not.

A second point that should also be know, While the two caps, #11 mags and Musket Caps produce the same heat and pressure, the Musket cap does produce it for a longer period of time. Which would be an advantage for the Musket cap when igniting a damp powder load or a load that might be a greater distance away from the touch hole of the nipple especially in sub zero temps.
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline oneshot12

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Re: Percussion Caps - #11 Magnum or Musket
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2013, 01:34:24 PM »
I also have used both  the musket caps and the #11  magnums in my Remington 700  54 cal.   I dint see much difference  between them   both worked fine  just one was a bit more to clean up after a day of shooting  then the other. when shooting the # 11s i use the uncle mikes hot shot nipple  or the standard musket nipple  for the musket caps  comes down to personal preference to the size cap you want i switched back to the # 11s easier   to get at most sporting stores

 


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