Washington Sheep Tags

[whacker1]

Regardless of odds, I would much rather see the tags go to someone that otherwise would never have the funds available to purchase one of these hunts on their own. Lets face it, if someone has the means to drop 2500 chances into the pot then they also have the means to simply bid in the auctions.

+1

Although, you're starting to sound like Obama!   

You are confused, Obama would have those that have the means to purchase 2500 tickets taxed higher, then use that tax
revenue to purchase tickets and hand them out to those that can't afford to purchase their own, big difference!

No you are both wrong....Obama would have those that have the means to purchase 2500 tickets taxed at higher rate, then use the tax revenue to lobby against gun ownership.....for everyone except congress and the president.....And in the fall Obama would win the raffle and hunt sheep in Asotin.

[Bwana Bob]

Where be my Obama Sheep raffle tickets

[ramslam]

Seems this thread has brought up two important issues worthy of responding to—the only Rocky permit in WA being raffled as well as the number of tickets allowed to be purchased.  This is a little more complicated than it appears so this is going to be a bit long.  I assure you, WA WSF did not “take” the permit from the draw system nor are we conspiring to “auction” it via a raffle.

First, let's look at the history of the Rocky raffle as I think it will help understand the situation.  The idea of the Rocky raffle began way back in late 2003/early 2004, we were still suffering the lingering impact (and we still are) of the 95/96 pneumonia die-off the great Hells Canyon area.  All Rocky units in WA had been closed since about 1996 and it didn’t appear we were getting closer to a huntable population yet we had a few scattered mature rams.  Because the older rams were scattered and none of the units met the state requirements to hold a hunt (there is an equation that is used to determine permit levels that is a percentage of the class 3 and 4 rams), having a draw permit was not an option.  Imagine waiting x-number of years to draw a sheep permit, the one older ram dies or moves out of the unit before your season opens and you're left with virtually nothing to hunt.   There needed to be a way to offer a hunt that was flexible each year in what units were hunted as well as with multiple units open.

So, the idea was presented to the state in 2004 to have a Rocky raffle but under different stipulations than the current Cali raffle (minimum 2 draw permits before the raffle would be available).  The local bio's could designate which units would be open each year with a few different areas to choose from and allow someone the chance to hunt these few scattered mature rams.  Again, these would include units that are not eligible for a draw permit because of the low number of mature rams.  At the same time, it would provide an important revenue source to help with the intensive monitoring and research at WSU. For $20, any person could buy a chance to win the coveted hunt.   

It took a year but this idea was on its way to fruition in April 2005 when the unexpected happened.  I got a call from WDFW that said our Rocky raffle was going to be voted on by the commission the next day and they anticipated it passing.  The caveat was the commission wanted to make it an auction tag and not a raffle!  Luckily I was on spring break and could drive to Spokane the next day to testify before the commission as did a fellow WA WSF board member.  We guaranteed the commission that WA WSF would sell at least $50,000 in raffle tickets or we would donate the balance.  In the end, the raffle idea prevailed and the commission accepted our proposal.  We had a Rocky permit that would allow the consumable usage of some big ol rams while generating a revenue source to try to solve the disease issue with domestic sheep/goats.

In the eight years (2005-2012) of the Rocky raffle, rams have been harvested from the Tucannon, Wenaha, Mtn View, Black Butte, Hall Mtn and Asotin herds.  In many of these situations, the Rocky raffle was the only Rocky permit in Washington; same as 2013.  Our greatest revenue was $112,000+ and our lowest was about $56,000+.  In 2010, WDFW marketed the raffle and generated about $48,000.  WA WSF markets the permit and then has WDFW conduct the actual drawing.  We are all sheep nuts too and buy tickets so it’s important to have WDFW conduct the actual ticket drawing.

WA WSF bids on the opportunity to market the permit every June.  Every other conservation group bids on offering auction permits as well.  As I mentioned, we did not market the tag in 2010 as our bid was rejected from the state.  That was the year of the “multi-species” raffle and two of our Cali tags were pimped out to fund other species in the North Central raffle and the South Central raffle.  At the same time, WDFW increased the administrative take from the raffle and auction to over 15%.  Our bid was to retain 100% of the Rocky raffle revenue but that all 100% of the funds would be available for bighorn projects—WA WSF would not retain the standard 10-15%.  Basically, we were guaranteeing more money would go back to sheep!    I guess that wasn’t acceptable to WDFW?!?!  WA WSF board members have written a truck load of letters to WDFW and the commission adamantly opposing the excessive Cali raffles—I sure hope all of you have as well.  We should have one and only one!   I promise you, there is not a conservation organization in this state that watches over the auction/raffle program like WA WSF.  We lobbied to maintain the individual species funding requirement for species-specific raffles/auctions as well as filed a public disclosure request to get all raffle and auction expenditures out on the WDFW website.

The herds available to the Rocky raffle are set over a year in advance of the hunt (unless a biological emergency occurs) and are determined by WDFW.  Again, considering the flexibility of offering multiple units that may or may not meet the state requirements for a hunt, WA WSF does not feel we are “taking” a permit away, but instead offering opportunity when one would not usually exist.  For 2013, the Rocky raffle winner may or may not hunt Asotin so it will not guarantee a harvest from that herd.   There seems to be a bigger group of up-and-comers so I sure hope we add a draw permit back in Asotin sometime soon.

This is getting far more long-winded than I anticipated but I hope that some background of what and why the Rocky raffle is conducted.  Now, let’s look at the second issue of number of tickets to be purchased.  I promise this is short!

There is no question some big money is being spent on raffles, the Rocky raffle not excluded.  If you feel strongly enough about the issue, write the commission.  If the directive is given to us by WDFW we will follow it without hesitation.  I’m only guessing here but since the purpose of the raffle is also to raise funds, if WA WSF put a limit of x-number of tickets in our future bids I’m sure it would be rejected and WDFW would conduct the raffle.  All of your concerns and frustrations are valid, but for 2013 anyway, WA WSF will not be limiting the tickets purchased because it would be a contradiction to the bid we submitted last June for the 2013 Rocky raffle.  A couple interesting facts to consider about raffles:  the person who has spent the most on the Rocky raffle each year has NEVER won it!!!    Also, it only takes one.  I know, I bought one $20 ticket for the New Mexico raffle in 2002 and have a desert sheep to show for it.  I know “Starbailey” on here bought one or two tickets for the first ever Washington Cali raffle and won it; the following year he won Oregon with a $50 investment.    Again, if you want this changed I encourage you to make it happen!

I had the unfortunate opportunity to spend a day in Tieton a few weeks ago for the first round of lethal removal.  It absolutely broke my heart to watch.  I don’t care if I ever do that again.  I know that in the 15 or so years that I’ve been around this sheep stuff we’ve made great strides, researchers have learned more in the last five years than the previous 50.  My greatest hope is that with continued financial support of LIMITED and TRANSPARANT auction/raffle programs as well as the financial support of conservation groups we will solve the devastating disease issue with wild and domestic sheep.


Yours in Conservation,

Glen A Landrus
President, WA WSF

[10heiau]

It's totally unfair if someone spends 40K and it diminishes the odds of someone who buys one ticket.

But, the sentiment on here is the odds wouldn't change by putting a cap on it.  Therefore, maybe we are making too big a stink about it when our odds are the same either way.

I know, easy for me to say but would people have been pissed if they didn't know John Doe bought 40K worth of tickets?

Maybe it's psychological to me. I don't buy raffle tickets anymore. What's the point. How much did the guy spend on the eastside elk raffle last year? $30k?? That's more than 1k tickets isn't it? I don't even remember how much they cost.

2806 tickets at $6 per ticket. So he got it for a mere $16,836. That is a much better bargain than the auction tag that (from what I understand) the same guy bought. He had 2806/4788 = 58.6% of the total 2012 eastside elk raffle tickets.

[whacker1]

It's totally unfair if someone spends 40K and it diminishes the odds of someone who buys one ticket.

But, the sentiment on here is the odds wouldn't change by putting a cap on it.  Therefore, maybe we are making too big a stink about it when our odds are the same either way.

I know, easy for me to say but would people have been pissed if they didn't know John Doe bought 40K worth of tickets?

Maybe it's psychological to me. I don't buy raffle tickets anymore. What's the point. How much did the guy spend on the eastside elk raffle last year? $30k?? That's more than 1k tickets isn't it? I don't even remember how much they cost.

2806 tickets at $6 per ticket. So he got it for a mere $16,836. That is a much better bargain than the auction tag that (from what I understand) the same guy bought. He had 2806/4788 = 58.6% of the total 2012 eastside elk raffle tickets.

Yes, i agree bargain in comparision to the auction.  But $16,836 is more than the average joe that might spend as much as $60 or so.  I just feel that there should be a distinction drawn between the raffles and the auctions as overall landscape of participants.  I do like the Sheep tag more than any other for the reasons ramslam gave.  I do hold the sheep raffle at a greater deal of respect than any of the raffles that WDFW operates.  And I also agree that it is about revenue and I don't see the system will change anytime soon.

[starbailey]

Thank you Ramslam!

[huntnphool]

Good stuff Glen

[jackelope]

It's totally unfair if someone spends 40K and it diminishes the odds of someone who buys one ticket.

But, the sentiment on here is the odds wouldn't change by putting a cap on it.  Therefore, maybe we are making too big a stink about it when our odds are the same either way.

I know, easy for me to say but would people have been pissed if they didn't know John Doe bought 40K worth of tickets?

Maybe it's psychological to me. I don't buy raffle tickets anymore. What's the point. How much did the guy spend on the eastside elk raffle last year? $30k?? That's more than 1k tickets isn't it? I don't even remember how much they cost.

2806 tickets at $6 per ticket. So he got it for a mere $16,836. That is a much better bargain than the auction tag that (from what I understand) the same guy bought. He had 2806/4788 = 58.6% of the total 2012 eastside elk raffle tickets.

Right. Proved my point. One guy had almost 60% of the raffle tickets.  They may as well just call it another auction. I appreciate his money, hope it goes to conservation, etc but I'd like a legit chance too.

[jackelope]

Thank you ramslam, for that info. It provides some insight. What units can the rocky raffle winner hunt? Is it Asotin, black butte and hall mtn?

[6x6in6]

Yes, thank you for providing clarity to this ramslam.   

[Falcon]

Glen,

Thank you for a well rounded response.

I am a proud life member of the WSF and will continue to support this worthwhile organization.

Lots of people talk about conservation.

This organization is doing the work.

[B.G.hunter]

Thanks ramslam.  Nobody wants to lose opportunity but s*** happens.  Hopefully they can use the money and get a cure for this. 

[lhrbull]

I buy my $100 dollars worth  it's more about the good of the research and even a blind dog finds a bone every so often

[boneaddict]

If that's the case I am glad I'm not a member of that organization. As was made clear the last couple years, raffle tags have become more of an auction anymore with people dropping $20-30k on raffle chances.

Booo..... put a limit on the raffle tickets that can be sold, otherwise you're taking our wild sheep hunting opportunities away from the regular guys like me.

AGREED!

[Monsterbull11]

   ramslam,

  I very much apprecite you taking the time and shedding some light on this. As I said in the initial statement, I didn't have all the facts and this has helped greatly.

  For better or worse, I've grown very cynical over the years when stuff like this pops up and there wasn't some sort of explanation. Especially when I hear about it from my beloved game department.

  Again, thank you for your time and all the facts.