The use of rat traps in washington state for martens and the like.

[Shasta Pond]

Humptulips,
My bad,  it was Montana.

It is where i had moved here from after growing up in the Black Hills ..
It is my opinion, and i do not understand that much about the NRA and its entire agenda, but my thoughts are that a type of singular Outdoorsman Union needs to be established amongst a brotherhood of all outdoorsman and sportsmen, even those that could be considered an outside fringe ie... underwater spearfishermen, treasure salvors, salt water fishermen etc.. etc..call it an infrared movement on those that oppose others joy,happiness and freewill of enjoying ALL the Great outdoors.

The reason that i suggest such a thing is that being a participant in such a brotherhood is that everyone present has each others back, so that ALL forms of outdoor recreation and enjoyment are fundamentally protected by not only an active ongoing AWARENESS of the voting processes of what asinine laws are being slipped into legislation going behind closed doors, but that most importantly that truths are exposed about the participants, indoctrinating lies and smear campaigns set up and run by those that choose to live in the obscure quasi of civilization posturing on the fact that a few innocent snooping animals were caught in a trap that was intended for something else or their skillful use of  "Touchwords" like "cruelty , carbon foot print, archaic and draconian"and the impact that it has on our precious living wilderness as if one breathes air, that the inclusive argon gas might be violated and offended, it will have been  sensitively touched and a carbon foot print will have been left behind for all generations to see.

I understand also that the self proclaiming ethical treatment clubhouse desires to rename fish as "Sea Kittens".

Using tactical touch words to manipulate emotion and after it has time to rest and acclimate itself, bring out three truthful compromising pictures and then attach cruelty and murder to them and the uneducated masses will go after it like a Wolverine after a cat.

I see an American Outdoorsman Union as an analogy to the U.S. military fighting the rise and Indoctrinating core theology of Nazism. HSUS showed a few pictures of domestic animals caught in traps intended for wild animals and incited the rest of the Washington civilization to ban them. It`s interesting psychology that "steel " trapping was totally acceptable for a hundred years or more and helped build this once mighty powerful nation until cult organizations like HSUS self developed.
Nazism also indoctrinated the German nation of people into voting and believing in it`s ways ...........it`s about undermining and eroding away at, in order to establish power and control, the bible refers to it as a demonic Jezebel spirit that exists in both men and women, a spirit of self exaltation and control and i`ll just leave it at that.

I see that our rights, God given rights to peacefully exist and to PROVIDE, regardless of opposition or opinion is being demised in all facets of life and Fur Trapping just happens to be one of those beginnings, everything has to have a seed planted and a root started in order for a foundational beginning to manifest itself and to grow beyond out of control and that too can be looked upon in a positive light, people gathering through assembly and brotherhoods to protect themselves and their way of life.
If avid outdoorsmen joined into a singular collective brotherhood, were to become a force to be truly reckoned with like the NRA, responsible men protecting what is theirs given by their Creator, why then we would have something that could not be touched or hindered would we not !

Every single asinine outdoor law and ban would be shut down before it even took its first breath of existence through the strength of solidarity, it does not matter what sport one is involved in, i do for you as you do for me and all enjoyment is protected.

Even modifying a common household rat trap to keep on subject is far beyond measure and control, kinda resembles giving men sticks to defend a nation with , like the Scots and the English, but i would then agree that indeed that is archaic and draconian rule in America, as King Solomon spoke , there is nothing new under the sun.

Smoke Jumpers fight and suppress fire with fire, if there was an American Outdoorsman Union in existence i would be a heartfelt member in a minute, the benefits ? !!!!FREEDOM!!!!

I wire snared my first Ring-Necked Pheasant when i was thirteen years old in the Black Hills of South Dakota crawling on all fours through a ten yd. long small game trail made in a half acre of cocklebur thickets , self taught from A.R. Hardings 1907; Deadfalls and Snares.
Those thickets were my hooch, no one else dared to go, it was a maze of trails full of small game.
If you can endure the cocklebur, man you can endure anything.

Cheers.

[Shasta Pond]

http://gfp.sd.gov/hunting/trapping/regulations.aspx

South Dakota Resident Furbearer license $27

Trapping coyote, red and gray fox, skunk, raccoon, badger, bobcat, opossum, mink, weasel, beaver and muskrat. This license is also required to hunt bobcat, opossum, mink, weasel, beaver and muskrat.
Muskrat may only be shot in specific areas - please consult the current Hunting Handbook.
This license includes the privileges of the Predator / Varmint License.
No license is required for youth under 16 to hunt Predator / Varmints or trap Furbearers.

Body Grip Traps: (commonly known as conibears)

    * Body grip traps with a jaw spread greater than eight inches are permitted only as water sets. All of the bottom surface of these traps must remain completely below the water's edge at all times.
    * On all public lands and public road rights-of-way statewide, no person may set or operate a body grip trap when used in conjunction with any bait, lure, or scent with a jaw spread greater than six and three-quarter inches (i.e. larger than a 160 conibear) unless:
      (a) The trap is recessed in a plastic, wood, or metal cubby a minimum of seven inches from the front edge of the cubby to the trigger of the trap; or
      (b) The trap is set below the water's edge of a stream, river, or other body of water.
      Note: a single overhang on the top of the cubby does not meet this recess requirement.

[hardkorrhunter]

Boy i would love to see an outdoorsman union as you speek, for some reason they shut down our sauk and skagit rivers to fly fishing and catch and release. I do neither of the two but thats besides the point it infuriated me when i heard that folks held a peaceful gathering at the steelhead park in rockport everyone fly fishing but without hooks on their lines we had a petition to sign wich i was all over that and spread the word like wild fire now thats what we are talking about here you got my back and i got yours right. solidarity as you speak of is vital to all sportsman alike. I would jump all over a life time membership.

[Special T]

I think the way to work within the law, Is to place a large order with Victor company to make specialty rat traps that are "designed" for those large warf rats that everyone swears are 5lbs! If it says Victor on it it must be a conventional rat trap right?

[Shasta Pond]

Special T,
Logical thinking would suggest that in regards to the Victor Co. , i digress and believe that the word is "to systematically hamstring & hamper" and Wildlife law enforcement only does what they are told to do, not necessarily what the laws says, otherwise they would be able to not only explain as a law enforcement agency duty, but also to be emphatic per quote about the legality of rat trap modifications or facsimiles of the same. I can machine and steel harden my own trap devise , have it work exactly the same in principle as a store bought Victor rat trap, but is it legal to use in the eye of the law?
It sounds as though,... not.
And they can`t explain why either, they just know that it isn`t legal to use.

If you had to begin , 8 million Outdoor Sportsmen across the United States join a Sportsman Union, paying a $20 a year Union member due, thats like $160 million just to start out of the gate , as big as the NRA, and far bigger than PETA. That is allot of legal strong arm in conjunction with the NRA. The Sierras and HSUS would wither like dandelions in Union heat......the benifits?....Solidarity & Joy for all sportsman alike, brother protecting brother........being made aware of all the undermining of Joys established and cherished in this Land far and wide.
One of the principle freedoms of Joy..GOD GIVEN RIGHTS to exist and to provide regardless of others opinions are.
To shine a 1,000,000 candlepower spotlight on all the corrupt Wilderness use legislation and an even brighter light on those that are perpetrating , scheming and intent on ruining it for others. I`m not interested what other people think if i fly fish or trap wild animals , it`s not their business or right to manage what i do or to tell me if i can be free and full of joy over it.
Sierra and HSUS are not the hallway monitor that they think they are.
Someone told me once that, people who hurt, hurt other people...and that there is always someone bigger that eventually comes along.

[Special T]

I don't disagree with your thoughts. All I suggest is using people camoflauge... We  hide our trial cams from people so they stay out of sight. some things can be hidden in plain site. Ever seen those coke cans with the screw top to hid stuff?

Think of it as plasuable deniability If you machined, hardened steel wire and spring LOOK like a standard Victor who is to say its not a victor? The WDFW plays the "perception is reality" game all the time. Mabe they think this law is BS mabe not. They don't want to go on record because it then gives them no grey area in which to operate. I'm guessing they need to be able to give a wink and a nod, yet at the same time tell the anti's that its left vauge so that they can enforce the law without loop holes.

This may not be the case but its may devils advocate position.

[Shasta Pond]

Special T,
I see what you mean. I could even send some work in and  have it copper plated to "appear" as a Victor factory, so as in an advent happening on my watch , that a Wildlife management officer would want to check my boxes, heck i could even paint my wooden saddles to look just like a Victor however what they have on their side of the log roll is officer discretion guarded by authority. Even though i was technically doing 5 over the speed limit the issuing officer has the discretion to write a traffic ticket or not , based on.......?

Rat traps are a great trap design.
In my private opinion they are half body grip and half guillotine in design, and because of that, they are technically not either or the other of two individual designs. And given that they are considered a common household trap, it is not what one would actually use in a wilderness setting or usage, therefore not technically listed as a wild game trapping device..

Rat Traps, live cages and a pistol....it`s architecture sounds like primitive forced labor which means this approved measure must be amended through clarification, any consideration was not given a chance at all.
There needs to be regulated and tagged body grip legislation with specific(s) outlines, especially concerning areas of dense domestic animal population and for the rest, wild animal trapping is exactly as it has been for the past centuries, regardless of those few who believe it is archaic.
So is rocking chair knitting and crocheting, we have high speed machinery for that but grandmother and expectant mothers still enjoy doing it, as archaic in todays standards it looks. Most people today don`t even know where their own food source comes from nor do they care, it`s always easier for a man to judge and complain  when his belly is full of yogurt and gravy.
Thin stringy wintered animals are easy to catch, they are starving and non-judgmental when they know there is nourishment, to those i leave a half sandwich and my lemon sandwich cookies behind for a better day next year, who knows? They may breed just one more time and keep the field full.
There is a lesson in gleaning, it creates many problems.

Moving to a double size design rat trap , though i cannot state for certain would cause much damage to say; muskrat & mink fur.
Anything larger would have to be traditional body grip or live box.

I see your point Special T, however the state is levying a burden upon me which should not be, luring me to get into a self-will permission with them to "treat me how ever they feel in the moment"
That is not authority nor is it power, it is abuse; whether "I get to live another Day or forfeit everything thing that is mine , including my hard and sought after license and good name" just because i built a stronger, better facsimile Rat trap that they can`t quite understand.
I choose not to live in a world of deception in order to have a little peace..
I don`t fly under anyone else's radar, brother i just go straight through it !
What did that crazy Doc Holliday say to the McLowery`s..."BLAZE AWAY!!"

[Humptulips]

WSTA decided to drop the idea of defining what a rat trap was. The danger is WDFW could and would likely be very restrictive in their defintion. That is what we took from our meetings with them. We took a KORO trap which is sold in Europe as a rat trap to them and a #0 which was sold as a rat trap. The KORO works much like a victor rat trap but stronger. We got the thumbs down on them.
As it stands field agents have no guidance from Olympia on this. It is likely that they will give you some leeway and a talk with one might give you something you could work with in a local area.
Pozanghria basically told us if we pushed it he would define a rat trap as a trap set for a rat. Any trap, no matter what kind set for anything else would have been illegal. It would have lost us weasel traps.

As far as a sportsmens union, good idea but someone beat you to it. Now all you have to do is get everyone to pitch in.
United States Sportsmens Alliance
http://www.ussafoundation.org/

[Special T]

From what i've read it seems like a worthy organsiation, but does it create an umbrella to bring all hunting groups together in an affiliation?  For example  Most archery clubs in this state belong to the Washington State Archery Association (WSAA). The WSAA belongs to the National Feild Archery Association (NFAA) along with lots of other state and regional associations.  We get benifits of organization, cheep liability insurance, some guidelines to go by so that we don't have to reinvent the wheel.

I know that there is a Fishing group Coastal.....Fishing Association that has brought together all fishing groups national and regional to have some real impact on fishing issues. They seem to be making changes even in this state...

[Shasta Pond]

Good Morning Humptulips, Special T,
I was able to check both of these suggestions out over coffee this morning.
That Koro trap is one stout lifelong trap, more along the lines of intended thought. Definitely nothing flimsy about it.
As Humptulips suggested, that Field agents have no guidance from Olympia on this. These people follow orders for their paycheck just like anyone else, i`ve had my run in(s) with them up on the river before on a few different occasions fly fishing....Their just doing their paid job...God Bless them...and are not going to jeopardize their establishment or living by second guessing their boss in the grey areas of silent uncertainty. .....then there is the youth power thing.
Uncertainty does leave a need dangling, leading to a conundrum of weariness and exasperation

To me an approval stamp was set on it, Live traps and Rat traps and the law makers had or have no understanding in definitions nor care to after the fact.
What was paramount, being the dramatically well publicized "ghastly", and to rid the entire state of them completely regardless of the ripples it sent out, but then who actually cares about ripples in a small pond?

I have no doubt in my mind that the agenda of the day was / is "eminent domain" or dominium eminens (Latin for supreme lordship), and i do not believe that to be in the least , exaggerative.
It is the paramount goal for many things to happen in this new decade and at astonishing rates concerning wilderness usage in all forms. Its only been 12 yrs for Washington and here we are once again, the darkness is soon to attempt a further worse on the state of Oregon by ending fur trapping completely.
It is like passing drug laws, all it takes is one foot in the door and leverage has been obtained to come in and take over. The same is also true for each person who turns their back to it, it allows it to continue and fester itself until it becomes a crippling systematic paradigm.

A personal note to myself: I have no question that in my thoughts great or small concerning these current aspects of time, that Satan himself is attempting to establish a form of lordship over all the earth through these co-dependent dark hearted passion groups which God has and had in the beginning of all things , given man complete and unbridled dominion over.
It is entirely up to man to exercise the self will that God established into him if he indeed desires to retain that dominion or to forbear and live controlled in servitude destitution and unrelenting sorrow .

United States Sportsmens Alliance
I cannot understand why the heat is not being publicly put on irresponsible animal owners that allow their beloved pets to roam free during trapping season, especially in counties where there are leash laws.That is like an arrogant driver saying even though the law exists, on Saturday and Sunday mornings when i run my dogs i don`t need to yield to you the right of way.
Do they also allow their toddlers to roam out in the streets?
The co-dependent dark hearted passion groups get hold of this stuff, turn it inside out and with deliberate forethought calling white , black , screaming  justice for animals and that laws need to be passed to regulate.

I have never heard of the USSA in the news before, though the acronym seemed a bit familiar.
In similarity, this alliance is somewhat analogous to what i was pondering about.
The difference between an umbrella alliance and a solidarity union would be the unknown , un-identified millions of individuals making up a brotherhood of solidarity ie...people hate unions because of their strength and potential and if one examines the word potential, it`s value or amplitude is limitless...ie..NRA or Teamsters though the NRA is not a union , and the strength and force to be reckoned with, the clout that is wielded by them.
I`m not stating that a union or unions are the answer to any resolve , however history has shown the intended protection that they do provide, in this particular circumstance it would be utilized in a somewhat different manner., mostly being anonymous and discreet, nothing tying anything or anyone together in specifics except for a single brotherhood of solidarity across the nation paying for expert representation and protection through petitions and votes on the battlefield to protect our rights and interests as wilderness sportsmen.....to untwist what has been twisted by the co-dependent dark hearted passion groups ...by authoritative union representatives.

I say this with utmost respect, but the rest of the world when they see an alliance made up of numerous individualistic and well advertised special sporting groups, they see the everyday in your face freedom flying bumper / back window sticker that they see on the way into work each and every morning and their thoughts become associated with that and basically scoff at it all with great disrespect.....there is no doubt or question that no matter what side that you are on, that getting legislation passed is no small thing , but speaking solely as a retired body & fender man, a paint job is only as good as the prep work, everything in life is in the preparatory stages of the building block system  no matter what you are doing and the co-dependent dark hearted passion groups are perfectionists about it before they go into battle , people on the payroll devising all their unbridled legal slanders and twists . According to Sierra wilderness etiquette i`m supposed to pack out my own poop.... in an EPA approved bag.................for pity sakes.
If some one ever mentioned something like that while out in the field.......that`s how co-dependent worse it is going to get on all of us.

[Shasta Pond]

I saw that these Magnum tube traps were interesting devices from England

http://www.magnumtrap.com/

[Humptulips]

The tube traps are nothing new, Not legal.

[whitey]

If it grips the body it can not be used.  Except for a common rat trap may be used with little or no modifications.

I agree 100% a body gripping trap is a body gripping trap. No they are not legal for use on any fur bering animal.
I also agree they arent big enough for a quick kill, Better off making cubby sets with small cage traps.