Keyhole Crazy! 25 yards

[kerrdog]

Got some good shots with the scope at 100 yards.
Feeling satisfied that the rifle and load were good, I removed the scope to try the NECG peep site at the 25 yard mark for the first time! I also gave the bore a good swabbing (just patches and windex, no brush).  My first shot was encouraging, considering I've never used this site.  But since it's Sabotloader's site, I figured it would be pretty close. Second shot made two holes. One was the sabot I guess.   I didn't swab between any of the shots.  First and last shot are through the same hole.

Ever see so many keyholes? It was a hot day and what was weird was that the hotter the barrel got, the harder it was to start the bullet, but the easier it went down after starting.  I don't get it; what could cause this?

My 100 yard target is below.





120 grains 777
Barnes Spitfire TMZ 290s

[Sabotloader]

Think I have some answers for you - just got to get time to write it up...  I hate working!

[Sabotloader]

OK thinking out loud and good just for that thought....

Got some good shots with the scope at 100 yards.
Feeling satisfied that the rifle and load were good, I removed the scope to try the NECG peep site at the 25 yard mark for the first time! I also gave the bore a good swabbing (just patches and windex, no brush).

I am glad you got some good shots in with the scope on... but now I am wondering why you might have run a windex patch if you had not been running them and was having success... and just so you know I run a patch after every shot just to be sure that the bore is in the same condition from shot to shot.  Actually at the range I use the same patch over and over until it dries out.

  My first shot was encouraging, considering I've never used this site.  But since it's Sabotloader's site, I figured it would be pretty close. Second shot made two holes. One was the sabot I guess.   I didn't swab between any of the shots.  First and last shot are through the same hole.

It certainly is possible that the sabot may have traveled 25 yards, but if it did I would suspect a much larger hole through a paper target.  My sabots are normally off and on the ground by 15 yards or there about.

Ever see so many keyholes? It was a hot day and what was weird was that the hotter the barrel got, the harder it was to start the bullet, but the easier it went down after starting.  I don't get it; what could cause this?

My 100 yard target is below.

120 grains 777
Barnes Spitfire TMZ 290s

I hate key-holes.  Key-holes normally occur because the bullet never reach stabilization.  The powder load certainly should produce the velocity you would need to spin the bullet to stabilization... IF the bullet did not slip it's way up the bore or the sabot and bullet road up the bore correctly.

I am curious which color sabot you may have been using?

Barnes sabot are made by MMP, they use the 3 basic models of MMP - the HPH-3p-EZ load, the HPH-24, and the HPH-12, with the 12 being the thickest - BUT they have a contract with MMP to build then sabots molded for a 'Boat Tail' bullets + plus they contract for flat based sabots also.

Now, explaining MMP polymer formulation... I am a firm believer in MMP sabots and use them all the time... BUT they are not good sabots for warm barrels or warm temperatures - MMP sabots are a more pliable sabot and are meant to form to the bore even in the coldest weather... In hot weather they just get to soft... For warm barrels and warm temps the Harvester sabots have a better formulation of polymer and will hold up to the heat better. but, it is my feeling their down side is in cold weather - they become very hard.

I would bet... you were shooting in +75* temps and the barrel was a bit warm...  The tightness at the crown of the barrel was probably a bit of a build up of fouling, especially if you were not patching.  The crown of the barrel cools quicker than any place else along the bore and traps the fouling easier.

Did you notice... while you were pushing the sabot in, I would bet that the petals were stretching and even distorting as they went through the crown.  Combine that with the heat of the barrel it is highly likely that the sabot could not grab the lands of the bore - so rotation speed required for stabilization did not occur before the bullet was lunched out of the bore.

I personally do not have the patience to wait for the bore to cool - so I avoid shooting in warm weather or when I do I get what I get...

Another thought I would pass to you... if you used an nominal amount od BB in the bore you may have to strip clean the bore the old fashioned way.... I am on the wrong computer right now to find some information... Let me switch and see if I can find a write up I did ages ago....

mike

Switched computers - still did not find the info I was looking for...

[kerrdog]

Hey Sabotloader,

Thanks again for taking time to help me out.  Without you I may have pulled out my 30-06 and swore off muzzleloaders as a bad idea.

I am glad you got some good shots in with the scope on... but now I am wondering why you might have run a windex patch if you had not been running them and was having success... and just so you know I run a patch after every shot just to be sure that the bore is in the same condition from shot to shot.  Actually at the range I use the same patch over and over until it dries out.

I'd decided to run the patch to keep the bore clean, as the last time I was at the range my accuracy went downhill as I kept shooting. Plus that's what I thought you did.  I'd decided that keeping the bore clean....but not too clean was the answer.

It certainly is possible that the sabot may have traveled 25 yards, but if it did I would suspect a much larger hole through a paper target.  My sabots are normally off and on the ground by 15 yards or there about.

I blinked a couple times when that happened.   The hole next to the "x" hole seemed to small to be the bullet! And how could a sabot fly that far and still have the energy to penetrate like that?  I theorize that it was stuck to the bullet as the whole package tumbled end over and separated right about 20 yards.   I noticed once that a chunk of sabot went flying off to the left at a very sharp angle from me and the bullet keyholed.

I hate key-holes.  Key-holes normally occur because the bullet never reach stabilization.  The powder load certainly should produce the velocity you would need to spin the bullet to stabilization... IF the bullet did not slip it's way up the bore or the sabot and bullet road up the bore correctly.

  One of my motivations for buying the Disk Extreme was that my 1/48 T/C NW Explorer tended to keyhole also, and I blamed the twist rate.  There's obviously more to sabot stabilization than twist rate.

I am curious which color sabot you may have been using?.

I was using the yellow sabot that came with the Barnes Spitfire TMZ.  The first round is really tough to load on a clean bore.  The second is much easier, etc.......  They are designed for the boat-tail bullets, as the side cuts do not extend all the way to the bottom of the bullet.  But there is still space around the bottom of the bullet in the sabot.  On the flat base bullets, I've noticed that the base of the bullet at the bottom edge is snug to the sabot, creating a sort of 'fat spot.' I wonder if that fat spot aids in stabilization?

Barnes sabot are made by MMP, they use the 3 basic models of MMP - the HPH-3p-EZ load, the HPH-24, and the HPH-12, with the 12 being the thickest - BUT they have a contract with MMP to build then sabots molded for a 'Boat Tail' bullets + plus they contract for flat based sabots also.

Ive also got some of the blue EZ load sabots that I bought from Knight, and they are also designed for the boat-tail bullet.  But they load too dang easy, especially when the barrel is warm.  That barrel really seems to expand with heat.  When we were hunting late season last year in the snow, it took everything I had to get a bloodline down the barrel for the first and second shot. On the second bullet, I was full of adrenaline from shooting my cow, and completely unconcerned with pain to my hand, and could not get that sucker down.  When it's warm at the range, they go down a little too easy.

I would bet... you were shooting in +75* temps and the barrel was a bit warm...  The tightness at the crown of the barrel was probably a bit of a build up of fouling, especially if you were not patching.  The crown of the barrel cools quicker than any place else along the bore and traps the fouling easier.

Did you notice... while you were pushing the sabot in, I would bet that the petals were stretching and even distorting as they went through the crown.  Combine that with the heat of the barrel it is highly likely that the sabot could not grab the lands of the bore - so rotation speed required for stabilization did not occur before the bullet was lunched out of the bore.

Yes, and I also noticed that the bullets were not aligning well, even with the Barnes aligner tool.  And I think you're right on with the temperature thing. The crown was actually a different bore size because of heat. And I didn't have a bullet starter and was using the range rod....way up in the air. I'm gonna get a bullet starter.

I personally do not have the patience to wait for the bore to cool - so I avoid shooting in warm weather or when I do I get what I get...

Me either.  And it was hot weather.  High 80s.

Another factor I thought of later.  I removed the breech plug twice at the range.  Once because I forgot powder  and once because when I was running a patch, it got stuck trying to pull it out, and the jag actually broke off in the barrel.  I greased the plug both times, and I'm sure that some of that grease made it into the bore.  I was probably distributed nicely after one shot, making my problems even worse. 

I would never have figured that Muzzleloaders were this challenging, with this many variables.  It's seems that I'm finding every mistake that there is. I'm good at finding mistakes.

[Sabotloader]

Hey Sabotloader,

Thanks again for taking time to help me out.  Without you I may have pulled out my 30-06 and swore off muzzleloaders as a bad idea.

I am glad you got some good shots in with the scope on... but now I am wondering why you might have run a windex patch if you had not been running them and was having success... and just so you know I run a patch after every shot just to be sure that the bore is in the same condition from shot to shot.  Actually at the range I use the same patch over and over until it dries out.

I'd decided to run the patch to keep the bore clean, as the last time I was at the range my accuracy went downhill as I kept shooting. Plus that's what I thought you did.  I'd decided that keeping the bore clean....but not too clean was the answer.

At the range.. I run a patch each shot to keep the bore in what I call a 'semi fouled' condition which is also the way that I hunt.  Hunting I would probably not take the time to run a patch to load successive shots.

It certainly is possible that the sabot may have traveled 25 yards, but if it did I would suspect a much larger hole through a paper target.  My sabots are normally off and on the ground by 15 yards or there about.

I blinked a couple times when that happened.   The hole next to the "x" hole seemed to small to be the bullet! And how could a sabot fly that far and still have the energy to penetrate like that?  I theorize that it was stuck to the bullet as the whole package tumbled end over and separated right about 20 yards. I noticed once that a chunk of sabot went flying off to the left at a very sharp angle from me and the bullet keyholed. [/quote]

I certainly could buy into the thought of stuck/caught on the bullet so it traveled with and farther than it should...  This is a big clue that there may have been a sabot problem.  Did by any chance you pick up a spent sabot down range and look at it?

These are some spent sabots that I picked up... Some of them look really bad but none failed or caused the bullet to fly off target.

I hate key-holes.  Key-holes normally occur because the bullet never reach stabilization.  The powder load certainly should produce the velocity you would need to spin the bullet to stabilization... IF the bullet did not slip it's way up the bore or the sabot and bullet road up the bore correctly.

  One of my motivations for buying the Disk Extreme was that my 1/48 T/C NW Explorer tended to keyhole also, and I blamed the twist rate.  There's obviously more to sabot stabilization than twist rate.

I am curious which color sabot you may have been using?.

I was using the yellow sabot that came with the Barnes Spitfire TMZ.  The first round is really tough to load on a clean bore.  The second is much easier, etc.......  They are designed for the boat-tail bullets, as the side cuts do not extend all the way to the bottom of the bullet.  But there is still space around the bottom of the bullet in the sabot.  On the flat base bullets, I've noticed that the base of the bullet at the bottom edge is snug to the sabot, creating a sort of 'fat spot.' I wonder if that fat spot aids in stabilization?

Look at the inside of the sabot at the bottom where the base of the bullet sits.  Compare a sabot for a flat base bullet to that of a boat tail bullet.  For a boat tail there should be a shoulder all the way around the inside bottom to support the boat tail... Just a sec - I have some need to go look.  You are correct in you description, except the yellow Barnes sabots I have actually appear to be Harvester 'crush ribs' they have the vertical lines on the outside of the petals.

Barnes sabot are made by MMP, they use the 3 basic models of MMP - the HPH-3p-EZ load, the HPH-24, and the HPH-12, with the 12 being the thickest - BUT they have a contract with MMP to build then sabots molded for a 'Boat Tail' bullets + plus they contract for flat based sabots also.

Ive also got some of the blue EZ load sabots that I bought from Knight, and they are also designed for the boat-tail bullet.  But they load too dang easy, especially when the barrel is warm.  That barrel really seems to expand with heat.  When we were hunting late season last year in the snow, it took everything I had to get a bloodline down the barrel for the first and second shot. On the second bullet, I was full of adrenaline from shooting my cow, and completely unconcerned with pain to my hand, and could not get that sucker down.  When it's warm at the range, they go down a little too easy.

I would bet... you were shooting in +75* temps and the barrel was a bit warm...  The tightness at the crown of the barrel was probably a bit of a build up of fouling, especially if you were not patching.  The crown of the barrel cools quicker than any place else along the bore and traps the fouling easier.

Did you notice... while you were pushing the sabot in, I would bet that the petals were stretching and even distorting as they went through the crown.  Combine that with the heat of the barrel it is highly likely that the sabot could not grab the lands of the bore - so rotation speed required for stabilization did not occur before the bullet was lunched out of the bore.

Yes, and I also noticed that the bullets were not aligning well, even with the Barnes aligner tool.  And I think you're right on with the temperature thing. The crown was actually a different bore size because of heat. And I didn't have a bullet starter and was using the range rod....way up in the air. I'm gonna get a bullet starter.[/quote]

Look at getting an "original Spin Jag" I use these on all of my range rods...

http://www.spinjag.com/spinjag_original.php

I personally do not have the patience to wait for the bore to cool - so I avoid shooting in warm weather or when I do I get what I get...

Me either.  And it was hot weather.  High 80s.

Another factor I thought of later.  I removed the breech plug twice at the range.  Once because I forgot powder  and once because when I was running a patch, it got stuck trying to pull it out, and the jag actually broke off in the barrel.  I greased the plug both times, and I'm sure that some of that grease made it into the bore.  I was probably distributed nicely after one shot, making my problems even worse. 

I would never have figured that Muzzleloaders were this challenging, with this many variables.  It's seems that I'm finding every mistake that there is. I'm good at finding mistakes.
[/quote]

But once you have them figured out - it becomes really easy and fun...

This post is going to be a bit difficult to read but, I tried to put all the new stuff in blue

I did give you a call on the land line but missed ya.. I got a couple of questions for you + some other thoughts

later mike

[kerrdog]

Hey Sabotloader,

I tried to give you a call yesterday.  Anyway, I just ordered some Harvester .451 crush rib sabots for boat tail bullets.  I really want to figure this rifle out before hunting season. 

[carpsniperg2]

WOW THAT IS NUTS. I have seen key holes from bullets not stabilizing but never at 25 yards that is crazy