CURRENTLY WDFW FEDERAL AGENTS SHOOTING 15 bulls in Skagit River Unit!!!!

[Bob33]

I respectfully disagree bob. I will take experience and intimate local knowledge over master hunters. I would still require all hunters to be briefed on the given situation.  I have witnessed many of the failures in the mh program in this very area. Yes their mh privileges were revoked and several, yes several citations issued. I know it's a mix but I have seen more that  "can't " so to speak than those that are driven. The most driven hunters I know are not necessarily the"master" hunter mold (but I would consider them master hunters).

thats why my plan had locals/family that the farmer/landowners approved to hunt on thier land, and no one else!

That sounds good in theory but I don't think it would work very well. You would have hunters knocking on landowner doors asking for permission, causing irritation and complaints. You would have posts on here going multiple pages and letters written to representatives about how certain hunters are getting special privileges when "I should have the same rights at anyone else", etc.

It's complicated, and any plan that includes citizen hunters will by definition exclude certain citizen hunters.

Tbar - I respect your opinion. Thank you.

[Boss .300 winmag]

I respectfully disagree bob. I will take experience and intimate local knowledge over master hunters. I would still require all hunters to be briefed on the given situation.  I have witnessed many of the failures in the mh program in this very area. Yes their mh privileges were revoked and several, yes several citations issued. I know it's a mix but I have seen more that  "can't " so to speak than those that are driven. The most driven hunters I know are not necessarily the"master" hunter mold (but I would consider them master hunters).

thats why my plan had locals/family that the farmer/landowners approved to hunt on thier land, and no one else!

That sounds good in theory but I don't think it would work very well. You would have hunters knocking on landowner doors asking for permission, causing irritation and complaints. You would have posts on here going multiple pages and letters written to representatives about how certain hunters are getting special privileges when "I should have the same rights at anyone else", etc.

It's complicated, and any plan that includes citizen hunters will by definition exclude certain citizen hunters.

Tbar - I respect your opinion. Thank you.

well thats what we have now with master hunters! some people dont have the time to dedicate to such a program, but have the knowledge and common sence to be able to hunt in close quaters with people, and livestock.

[pianoman9701]

My difficulty is the current MH is no longer accepting new blood.  I don't like special privilege for anyone.  The wildlife belong to all of us.

How long have you been a hunter in WA? Was last year your first year here? Because, it's the first year I can remember when the MH program was at capacity and didn't except new applicants. This is not a special privilege. It's an earned certification and anyone who was a hunter before last year had the opportunity to enroll and fulfill the requirements to get the certification. It's not an easy process and many who apply don't complete the requirements.

I don't want to get into a peeing match over special privileges v. earned rewards, but I will say that the reason  these opportunities are given to MHs is that the DFW has done everything they can by use of the MH course to limit the exposure to bad press for hunting in cases of high public profile hunts/culls. The most important aspects that I see are background checks to make sure someone hasn't committed crimes or offenses which would indicate a lack of care for nature, wildlife, and ethics, and the firearm or archery proficiency requirements which verify at least a minimum level of proficiency. What all of us hunters need even less than special privileges for some is some idiot in one of these culls who can't shoot or who doesn't care about how hunting is viewed by the general public, that same public who can make decisions about our hunting privileges in the ballot box.

[ghosthunter]

I was at the meeting, I was invited for Hunter Ed, so I did not comment on the elk.
But Dave Ware had in his power point that they had the USDA come in and kill elk.
I think he said three had been killed.

The property owner where the elk were killed was there and thanked the Department for doing it. But still wanted payment for damage. One damage claim is said to be $25k.
Not one person raised a brow about the USDA issue.

Dave Ware got called on the boards about his under estimate of elk / car incidents. The audience groaned when he said 40. A uniformed State Trooper said it was closer to 60 reported and based on dead animals more than that.

The tribes were there at least three. One chairman got cut off before he could say much because they only had a 2 minute comment time per person.
Another talked about their need for elk meat and that the elk were native.

A third said nothing could be decided here because they were a nation and the government should be talking to them privately . He also blamed his diabetics on the lack of eating his Traditional elk meat.

There was a lot of comment about DNR closing roads without public process.

In the end my thought is that nothing will ever come of the USDA issue. No one was bothered about it at all. The land owners welcomed it.

I thinks it is now a dead issue.

[ghosthunter]

The whole meeting is or will be available on line for viewing .

[Houndhunter]

I was at the meeting, I was invited for Hunter Ed, so I did not comment on the elk.
But Dave Ware had in his power point that they had the USDA come in and kill elk.
I think he said three had been killed.

The property owner where the elk were killed was there and thanked the Department for doing it. But still wanted payment for damage. One damage claim is said to be $25k.
Not one person raised a brow about the USDA issue.

Dave Ware got called on the boards about his under estimate of elk / car incidents. The audience groaned when he said 40. A uniformed State Trooper said it was closer to 60 reported and based on dead animals more than that.

The tribes were there at least three. One chairman got cut off before he could say much because they only had a 2 minute comment time per person.
Another talked about their need for elk meat and that the elk were native.

A third said nothing could be decided here because they were a nation and the government should be talking to them privately . He also blamed his diabetics on the lack of eating his Traditional elk meat.

There was a lot of comment about DNR closing roads without public process.

In the end my thought is that nothing will ever come of the USDA issue. No one was bothered about it at all. The land owners welcomed it.

I thinks it is now a dead issue.

Thats sad, diabetic from lack of elk meat...... Wow

[Boss .300 winmag]

The property owner where the elk were killed was there and thanked the Department for doing it. But still wanted payment for damage. One damage claim is said to be $25k.


Dave Ware got called on the boards about his under estimate of elk / car incidents. The audience groaned when he said 40. A uniformed State Trooper said it was closer to 60 reported and based on dead animals more than that


the above is the biggest issues that most people in the valley have.  we shouldn't have to dodge elk everyday on our commutes so the tribes have elk to eat, and land owners shoudn't have to pay to feed the elk, and have thier property damaged because of elk.

[pianoman9701]

Well Boss, if you're really lucky, the elk that were transported will be shown to have also transported the hoof rot and you can benefit from that, too. Moving animals is rarely a good idea in many, many ways.

[Whitpirate]

My difficulty is the current MH is no longer accepting new blood.  I don't like special privilege for anyone.  The wildlife belong to all of us.

How long have you been a hunter in WA? Was last year your first year here? Because, it's the first year I can remember when the MH program was at capacity and didn't except new applicants. This is not a special privilege. It's an earned certification and anyone who was a hunter before last year had the opportunity to enroll and fulfill the requirements to get the certification. It's not an easy process and many who apply don't complete the requirements.

I don't want to get into a peeing match over special privileges v. earned rewards, but I will say that the reason  these opportunities are given to MHs is that the DFW has done everything they can by use of the MH course to limit the exposure to bad press for hunting in cases of high public profile hunts/culls. The most important aspects that I see are background checks to make sure someone hasn't committed crimes or offenses which would indicate a lack of care for nature, wildlife, and ethics, and the firearm or archery proficiency requirements which verify at least a minimum level of proficiency. What all of us hunters need even less than special privileges for some is some idiot in one of these culls who can't shoot or who doesn't care about how hunting is viewed by the general public, that same public who can make decisions about our hunting privileges in the ballot box.

I've been hunting in Washington for 25 years.  I explored the MH program a few years ago and didn't like what I heard when talking to a number of hunters.  It is a certification to be sure  yet even with the hours of blood, sweat and tears you throw into the system the DFW doesn't utilize you in this case....maddening.   I just don't like closed rolls for any "earned" rights and especially if it takes time for folks to complete.

[Bob33]

"I just don't like closed rolls for any "earned" rights and especially if it takes time for folks to complete."

Like Hunter Education?

[pianoman9701]

My difficulty is the current MH is no longer accepting new blood.  I don't like special privilege for anyone.  The wildlife belong to all of us.

How long have you been a hunter in WA? Was last year your first year here? Because, it's the first year I can remember when the MH program was at capacity and didn't except new applicants. This is not a special privilege. It's an earned certification and anyone who was a hunter before last year had the opportunity to enroll and fulfill the requirements to get the certification. It's not an easy process and many who apply don't complete the requirements.

I don't want to get into a peeing match over special privileges v. earned rewards, but I will say that the reason  these opportunities are given to MHs is that the DFW has done everything they can by use of the MH course to limit the exposure to bad press for hunting in cases of high public profile hunts/culls. The most important aspects that I see are background checks to make sure someone hasn't committed crimes or offenses which would indicate a lack of care for nature, wildlife, and ethics, and the firearm or archery proficiency requirements which verify at least a minimum level of proficiency. What all of us hunters need even less than special privileges for some is some idiot in one of these culls who can't shoot or who doesn't care about how hunting is viewed by the general public, that same public who can make decisions about our hunting privileges in the ballot box.

I've been hunting in Washington for 25 years.  I explored the MH program a few years ago and didn't like what I heard when talking to a number of hunters.  It is a certification to be sure  yet even with the hours of blood, sweat and tears you throw into the system the DFW doesn't utilize you in this case....maddening.   I just don't like closed rolls for any "earned" rights and especially if it takes time for folks to complete.

So, all due respects Whit, you'd like the extra opportunity but you're not willing to do the work to get it. Sorry bud, but that disqualifies you from lots of stuff throughout life. Not pursuing the certification because of poor tag opportunities is also not the spirit intended for those who participate in the program. The rewards of tags are icing on the cake of satisfaction for work well done for wildlife and conservation. Someone who joins the program only for the tag rewards will end up disappointed and most likely be a disappointment as a MH representative. I personally don't care about getting a tag and enjoy doing the required conservation.

My disagreement here with the DFW is not about the fact that they could've used MHs to perform this task, although they should have. My disagreement is that they used hired guns instead of ANY WA hunters. My problem with the DFW stems from the fact that the wildlife decisions they make are often proof of how little importance they place on our wildlife (as opposed to fish & shellfish), and the fact that they aren't constantly asking themselves "how can we make this a win-win for our state and for the hunters who pay our bills?". Someone in that administration should've been pounding his or her fist on the table demanding that this problem be solved with hunters as a tool. Unfortunately, that will never happen with this administration.

[jdw12885]

I was at the meeting, I was invited for Hunter Ed, so I did not comment on the elk.
But Dave Ware had in his power point that they had the USDA come in and kill elk.
I think he said three had been killed.

The property owner where the elk were killed was there and thanked the Department for doing it. But still wanted payment for damage. One damage claim is said to be $25k.
Not one person raised a brow about the USDA issue.

Dave Ware got called on the boards about his under estimate of elk / car incidents. The audience groaned when he said 40. A uniformed State Trooper said it was closer to 60 reported and based on dead animals more than that.

The tribes were there at least three. One chairman got cut off before he could say much because they only had a 2 minute comment time per person.
Another talked about their need for elk meat and that the elk were native.

A third said nothing could be decided here because they were a nation and the government should be talking to them privately . He also blamed his diabetics on the lack of eating his Traditional elk meat.

There was a lot of comment about DNR closing roads without public process.

In the end my thought is that nothing will ever come of the USDA issue. No one was bothered about it at all. The land owners welcomed it.

I thinks it is now a dead issue.

Thats sad, diabetic from lack of elk meat...... Wow

More like diabetic from lack of exercise due to driving around in there trucks looking for elk to kill, and Laziness.....
These tribes haven't done anything to improve our elk and deer heard or our salmon runs for that matter. All they do is take, take, take! If they really gave a rats ass maybe they would start giving!! My dad once asked a wildlife biologist what are you guys going to when there is one elk left or one deer left. He replied what do you mean? He said, would the Indians get to kill those too? He said yes, they would be entitled to them.....

[jdw12885]

 

My difficulty is the current MH is no longer accepting new blood.  I don't like special privilege for anyone.  The wildlife belong to all of us.

How long have you been a hunter in WA? Was last year your first year here? Because, it's the first year I can remember when the MH program was at capacity and didn't except new applicants. This is not a special privilege. It's an earned certification and anyone who was a hunter before last year had the opportunity to enroll and fulfill the requirements to get the certification. It's not an easy process and many who apply don't complete the requirements.

I don't want to get into a peeing match over special privileges v. earned rewards, but I will say that the reason  these opportunities are given to MHs is that the DFW has done everything they can by use of the MH course to limit the exposure to bad press for hunting in cases of high public profile hunts/culls. The most important aspects that I see are background checks to make sure someone hasn't committed crimes or offenses which would indicate a lack of care for nature, wildlife, and ethics, and the firearm or archery proficiency requirements which verify at least a minimum level of proficiency. What all of us hunters need even less than special privileges for some is some idiot in one of these culls who can't shoot or who doesn't care about how hunting is viewed by the general public, that same public who can make decisions about our hunting privileges in the ballot box.

I've been hunting in Washington for 25 years.  I explored the MH program a few years ago and didn't like what I heard when talking to a number of hunters.  It is a certification to be sure  yet even with the hours of blood, sweat and tears you throw into the system the DFW doesn't utilize you in this case....maddening.   I just don't like closed rolls for any "earned" rights and especially if it takes time for folks to complete.

So, all due respects Whit, you'd like the extra opportunity but you're not willing to do the work to get it. Sorry bud, but that disqualifies you from lots of stuff throughout life. Not pursuing the certification because of poor tag opportunities is also not the spirit intended for those who participate in the program. The rewards of tags are icing on the cake of satisfaction for work well done for wildlife and conservation. Someone who joins the program only for the tag rewards will end up disappointed and most likely be a disappointment as a MH representative. I personally don't care about getting a tag and enjoy doing the required conservation.

My disagreement here with the DFW is not about the fact that they could've used MHs to perform this task, although they should have. My disagreement is that they used hired guns instead of ANY WA hunters. My problem with the DFW stems from the fact that the wildlife decisions they make are often proof of how little importance they place on our wildlife (as opposed to fish & shellfish), and the fact that they aren't constantly asking themselves "how can we make this a win-win for our state and for the hunters who pay our bills?". Someone in that administration should've been pounding his or her fist on the table demanding that this problem be solved with hunters as a tool. Unfortunately, that will never happen with this administration.

[Boss .300 winmag]

Well Boss, if you're really lucky, the elk that were transported will be shown to have also transported the hoof rot and you can benefit from that, too. Moving animals is rarely a good idea in many, many ways.

They don't seem to have the hoof rot like the Saint Helens herd, this herd (field elk) is healhty as a horse with basically no preditors except the ocassional hunter/tribe member, when they stray from the protection of private property.

[Whitpirate]

My difficulty is the current MH is no longer accepting new blood.  I don't like special privilege for anyone.  The wildlife belong to all of us.

How long have you been a hunter in WA? Was last year your first year here? Because, it's the first year I can remember when the MH program was at capacity and didn't except new applicants. This is not a special privilege. It's an earned certification and anyone who was a hunter before last year had the opportunity to enroll and fulfill the requirements to get the certification. It's not an easy process and many who apply don't complete the requirements.

I don't want to get into a peeing match over special privileges v. earned rewards, but I will say that the reason  these opportunities are given to MHs is that the DFW has done everything they can by use of the MH course to limit the exposure to bad press for hunting in cases of high public profile hunts/culls. The most important aspects that I see are background checks to make sure someone hasn't committed crimes or offenses which would indicate a lack of care for nature, wildlife, and ethics, and the firearm or archery proficiency requirements which verify at least a minimum level of proficiency. What all of us hunters need even less than special privileges for some is some idiot in one of these culls who can't shoot or who doesn't care about how hunting is viewed by the general public, that same public who can make decisions about our hunting privileges in the ballot box.

I've been hunting in Washington for 25 years.  I explored the MH program a few years ago and didn't like what I heard when talking to a number of hunters.  It is a certification to be sure  yet even with the hours of blood, sweat and tears you throw into the system the DFW doesn't utilize you in this case....maddening.   I just don't like closed rolls for any "earned" rights and especially if it takes time for folks to complete.

So, all due respects Whit, you'd like the extra opportunity but you're not willing to do the work to get it. Sorry bud, but that disqualifies you from lots of stuff throughout life. Not pursuing the certification because of poor tag opportunities is also not the spirit intended for those who participate in the program. The rewards of tags are icing on the cake of satisfaction for work well done for wildlife and conservation. Someone who joins the program only for the tag rewards will end up disappointed and most likely be a disappointment as a MH representative. I personally don't care about getting a tag and enjoy doing the required conservation.

My disagreement here with the DFW is not about the fact that they could've used MHs to perform this task, although they should have. My disagreement is that they used hired guns instead of ANY WA hunters. My problem with the DFW stems from the fact that the wildlife decisions they make are often proof of how little importance they place on our wildlife (as opposed to fish & shellfish), and the fact that they aren't constantly asking themselves "how can we make this a win-win for our state and for the hunters who pay our bills?". Someone in that administration should've been pounding his or her fist on the table demanding that this problem be solved with hunters as a tool. Unfortunately, that will never happen with this administration.

Piano I've often enjoyed your posts and feel that if we met in person we'd get along well.... but I guess I've hit some sort of "piss on him" mode with you.

#1 I didn't pursue the MH program for tags but for all the talk of improved conservation etc.... it was not present where I was living in the NE corner of Washington.  The 3 individuals that I spoke with detailed that not once had their projects or coordinator involved them in something that they didn't spoonfeed already on private land.  As private landowners and friends of many folks with lots of ground I didn't see any impact on the public grounds in my neck of the woods.  I will concede that now that I live over on the coast and I do see more opportunities for folks to work with conservation.

#2  I currently help maintain over 2400 acres of ground bordering one of the largest tracts of public hunting land north of Spokane and spend a number of days planting crops that are solely for wildlife and to bring increased opportunity to both my family and other hunters on the 11000 acres of state ground that borders us so I'm willing to do work without reflection or reward outside my own ground and purchased state tag.

#3 I know all about investment in work will lead to opportunity I hold 3 college degrees, 9 industry certifications and taught at the university level for over 15 years so if you tag me as "he wants a cheap tag and doesn't know how to work"; you've picked the wrong guy.

#4 I've farmed for at least 20 years of my adult life (with a job in town) and know the struggles of farmers etc.... but I also see when you close rolls and make something seemingly unattainable it becomes easier for folks to judge it unfavorably or hold a grudge (see commercial fishing books in SE Alaska, flower books for Pike's Place Market) etc.... being one of the lucky ones to get in while the getting is good is great but what about the folks on down the line.  Diminished opportunity for all classes of hunters is a steamrolling trend in this state and I agree we cannot fight among ourselves to take away any potential opportunities to licensed, ethical hunters.  I wrote two letters to my local reps detailing my frustration with the DFW administration's decision in this particular case to utilize USDA shooters and the loss of opportunity to hunters such as the MH program, youth, disabled etc....

#5 I understand that the closure of the MH applicant process was recent but in light of decisions by this administration at DFW and the general lack of opportunity how do you envision this program becoming less exclusive?  I see the hunting opportunities of my boys growing up (8 and 3) diminishing over time.  I sincerely regret sometimes waiting for as long as I did to have children as they could have had better opportunities 10-15 years ago.  While I don't believe this is your attitude I've met a few "I'm a MH and I'm better than you" individuals (see above on one of the 3 that I met exploring the program) that put me off and tempered my desire to join the ranks.

Either way I despise the lack of opportunity for legal Washington hunters in this case, the destruction of private and public property and the secrecy behind the decision-makers at DFW.  I won't speak on the tribe comments at the meeting as it will not be productive but let's just say I question the science of individual comments, the agendas behind them and more closed roll opportunities *wink*

Either way I'd be happy to buy you a beverage if you are in the Seattle area sometime or over in Spokane while I'm chasing whitetail.

I'm sitting in the Clockum now waiting on some movement below me to fill my cow tag so I appreciate the blood pressure increase you gave me for a few minutes (it was cold this morning).