Most Versatile Hunting Dog

[RC3]

Either AKC or not, those trials in my opinion they are useless for evaluating a pointing dog's hunting abilities especially a V-dog.

[AspenBud]

Either AKC or not, those trials in my opinion they are useless for evaluating a pointing dog's hunting abilities especially a V-dog.

Which trials? You just took a very broad brush there and lumped together many venues that are judged completely differently and apparently passed over trials that are run on wild birds.

For versatile breeds I agree however. But that's why you have groups like NAVHDA, the VHDF, and the other groups more closely focused on the German testing system(s). But they have their flaws as well.

[Happy Gilmore]

Yet you write the check to the AKC?  Happy, your missing the point.  You said the AKC is a breed registry, and that's it.  It's obvious based on these posts, that the AKC is much more than a breed registry.  While they don't directly run trials, indirectly they do.  So you have the ABC, or NGSPA (or whatever the AKC version is) run in trials, it's still the AKC.  They just pick which club is going to run the trial for them.  At the end of the day though, it really doesn't matter.  In the pointing dog world the AKC is considered a second rate citizen to the American Field.  That's what you can't seem to comprehend.  You've never Jenn able to comprehend that.  Heck, I can research the post where you didn't even know what AF was if you'd like.  Your a Retiever guy, who knows nothing about pointing dogs. You can argue simantics all your like, but at the end of the day, the AKC GD Nationals is put on by the AKC.  I don't care who they pick to run the trial, it's an AKC trial at the end of the day.  The same AKC who supposedly is only a breed registration.  The same AKC you write a check to for your entry fee, and the same AKC who registers the wins. 

Tell me, here's the placements for a trial.  Who deserves the credit for putting the trial on?  What did the ribbons say? 

http://www.remekvizslas.net/showTrialResults.php4?id=60181

You don't write your check to the AKC and the AKC is not putting on the trial. The trial is a "sanctioned" AKC event. Basically, it's like saying the National Football League puts on every Seahawks game. They don't. The Hawks pay a licensing fee to be a team, they must be approved by the NFL to be a team. However, the team must get it's stadium, workers, coaches etc. They have to pay for all of this because the NFL doesn't pay for stadiums to hold events, they will help a little by advertising a schedule on their website for member teams like the AKC. They have operational rules like the AKC and they have representatives which make sure teams are following the rules much like the AKC.

I'm not standing up for the AKC and I agree that AF has been around longer and certainly has all of the best dogs. What I am doing is pointing out that you don't know what you are talking about regarding how AKC events are ran and who runs them. Sorry to hurt your feelings. When you've run a few events like I have, when you've been the chairperson a few times, when you've been asked to hold, put on and judge national events you might understand this and then give me a call. At that time you can again remind me that AKC is crappy and AF is awesome or whatever else you'd like to throw in there that has nothing to do with what you don't get.

[Happy Gilmore]

Either AKC or not, those trials in my opinion they are useless for evaluating a pointing dog's hunting abilities especially a V-dog.

I've never done a V dog trial however, I've trained with a guy a few times who's made it to some invitational level test. I trained with him to see what the tests are about going through his routine.

One was a "Dead" hunt. A duck is put into an area of heavy cover and is supposed to hunt that area for a prolonged period of time without coming out. To me, this was no different than retriever trial blind. The dog is sent back and is not to stop until told otherwise.

Another was handling. I found the interpretation of handling very different from what I'm used to with retrievers. The handling required was very minimal. The dog wouldn't pass a seasoned HRC test.

The trailing is a good skill which I think should be used on more levels. I believe the HRC upland test has a trailing series but, not in the regular tests or AKC tests is the dog ever put into a trailing game scenario.

The water tests aren't much. I think they must get all four feet off the ground. I cannot recall if he said a retrieve to hand was required but, he was working on it. Most of the dogs in the pointing world are not force fetched.FF. It's probably best to say that there are very few pointing trainers who know that FF has little to do with picking up or holding a bird. That is fine because that is the only task most pointers will ever need beyond their natural abilities.

The "theory" behind the tests is all good and like every other scenario, they're trying to paint a picture of what makes the handler feel best for their dog. No matter type of testing you do, it all comes down to the fact that the dogs all know the difference  between hunting and testing.

[jetjockey]

You don't write your check to the AKC

YES YOU DO!  I've written the check!  I even posted the 2013 Premium which stated directly on it that you make the check out to the AKC!  You obviously want to ignore that because it flys I the face of your reasoning!   But here you go again, I case you couldn't read it the first time!!  The AKC GD Championship is an AKC event! 

Who does it say you write the check to?  I asked the question once before, but you refused to answer it.  It says, AKC Gun Dog Championship!  That's who you write the check too!  I think it's pretty funny you think you know any I have and haven't done in the line of helping out and putting on trials.  You don't have any idea what I have or haven't done! 

[Happy Gilmore]

Who cashes the check? It is NOT the AKC. It's the host club dillrod.

[canyonduck]

Talk about getting all wound up and moving off topic.

Here’s the scoop. According to me and to me only.  Every breed regardless if it is a true pointer (English), retriever (Chessy, Lab, etc), Flusher (spaniels), Versatile (Munsterlanders, Shorthairs, Griffons, Vizala, etc.) have a place in a hunter’s home.  If it happens to be your home, then you will doubtless believe you have the greatest breed available.

A Versatile dog is already defined in the hunting and breeding world.  It’s a pointer that retrieves from both land and water as well as has the proven capability to track.  So while Webster’s defines “versatile” in a manner that would include every dog that we may be partial to because it fits the way we like to hunt, it isn’t a Versatile Hunting breed unless it meets the definition above.

[jetjockey]

You don't get it do you?  At first you said you dont write the check to the AKC.  Now that I've proven you wrong, you say the AKC doesn't cash the check.  Well your wrong there as well. You write the check to the AKC, and the AKC takes the proceeds from the checks, not the host clubs.  The host clubs only get a portion of the proceeds for hosting the trial.

"The 20th running of the AKC Pointing Breed Gun Dog Championship will be held at the Branched Oak Field Trial Grounds near Lincoln, Nebraska. The multi-day event, beginning Saturday, March 16, 2013, will consist of two Championship stakes (retrieving and non-retrieving), plus, for the first time, a supporting Open Derby Stake. A portion of the event’s proceeds will benefit the Nebraska Field Trial Association with its ongoing maintenance and improvements to the Branched Oaks grounds."

[AspenBud]

Another was handling. I found the interpretation of handling very different from what I'm used to with retrievers. The handling required was very minimal. The dog wouldn't pass a seasoned HRC test.

Believe it or not I've seen a number of guys complain that the handling required at versatile hunting dog hunt tests is too much. If a dog stretches the range out and hits objectives rather than wasting time closer in on areas less likely to have birds, they are often called "self hunters." That's my understanding at least.

That said, if you're into the versatile game you are in it for more discipline and handling since the dogs may be expected to sit in a blind and retrieve a duck as well as dig up upland birds. A true upland pointing dog won't have that expectation and can be allowed to hunt more freely. The only thing it needs to do is be highly athletic, handle, hold a point, and possibly retrieve. I'm glossing over STWS etc but that's the crux of it.

At the end of it there is no right or wrong. Outside of tests and trials it's hunters' preferences.

[jetjockey]

BTW Happy.  In 2012, there was no host club for the AKC GD Nationals.  It was entirely put on by the AKC and volunteers at the Ames Plantation. 

[Happy Gilmore]

BTW Happy.  In 2012, there was no host club for the AKC GD Nationals.  It was entirely put on by the AKC and volunteers at the Ames Plantation.

You were the treasurer?

[Curly]

Talk about getting all wound up and moving off topic.

Here’s the scoop. According to me and to me only.  Every breed regardless if it is a true pointer (English), retriever (Chessy, Lab, etc), Flusher (spaniels), Versatile (Munsterlanders, Shorthairs, Griffons, Vizala, etc.) have a place in a hunter’s home.  If it happens to be your home, then you will doubtless believe you have the greatest breed available.

A Versatile dog is already defined in the hunting and breeding world.  It’s a pointer that retrieves from both land and water as well as has the proven capability to track.  So while Webster’s defines “versatile” in a manner that would include every dog that we may be partial to because it fits the way we like to hunt, it isn’t a Versatile Hunting breed unless it meets the definition above.

Thanks for trying to get this back on topic.  It is an interesting topic.

Question for you - You say a versatile dog is defined in the hunting and breeding world.  Does the versatile dog have to be a pointer?  Where does that definition you quote come from?
 

[jetjockey]

Nope.  Here's the conclusion of the write up for the 2012 event.  Now go tell everyone how the AKC doesn't put on trials. Maybe reading it in black and white will shut you up.  Now, unless you consider the AVP of AKC performance events not the AKC , then I dont know what to tell you.  The AKC dreamnt up this event, they planned the event, they delegated duties to other AKC people and other volunteers to make sure the event went off without a hitch.  In other words, this as an AK. event ran by the AKC.  Something you said the AKC doesn't do.    Stick with retrievers, becUse you know nothing about pointing dogs and their trials.


Conclusion

As your scribe, I have felt an obligation to report the highlights of each dog. This Championship brought together many of the top dogs from all the major pointing breeds. With the historic Ames Plantation being the setting for showcasing these fine dogs, the obligation was felt even greater. I can tell you that many handlers freely expressed their profound experience of testing their dogs at this challenging location. I have not witnessed this kind of emotional experience, by so many, before. The event was a National Championship in every sense yet I believe it will have an even greater impact over time. For the hundreds that were there and the thousands more that followed it on the internet and through social media, I believe this event has challenged perceptions and provoked new thoughts. I feel sure the event will be discussed and debated at local field trials and summer camps for years to come.

This event had been in the planning stages for over a year. Doug Ljungren, AVP of Performance Events was the first to conceive of the possibility of running at Ames. Doug approached Rick Carlisle, Superintendent of the Plantation with the idea. A key step in getting Rick comfortable with hosting the event was Doug’s request of Ken Blackman to be the Chairman for the trial. Ken is a neighbor in the area and well known by the Plantation. With Ken’s enthusiastic acceptance, the deal was finalized. There is no doubt that this event would not have occurred if it were not for Doug and Ken.

When it became apparent that running at the Ames Plantation was going to become a reality, there was never a question who Doug would ask to be the event secretary. An event of this magnitude needed Trish James on board. Trish had demonstrated her organizational skills, work ethic, and charming personality when this event ran in Danville, VA. Trish was to say the least, instrumental. Her hard work led to a well-organized and smooth running trial.

With the key players in place, planning for the event started to pick up. With Doug and Ken taking the lead, the big decisions were made with the full involvement of the AKC field staff, Trish and Ken Marden, who had been recruited as Treasurer for the event. As the event grew closer, Doug handed the reins to Ken B as the issues became more local in nature. Ken’s enthusiasm and high standard of preparedness resulted in a well-coordinated and enjoyable event. We owe him a great deal of gratitude for his tireless efforts.

In putting together the potential list of judges for this event, the AKC is always on the lookout for the right type of judge to preside over this most important trial. I believe that this year’s panel was one of the best to date. Varying from the usual format of two judges, we added a third member to the panel. The addition was a positive move. David Taylor of Neola IA, Kevin Waide of Parker CO, and Tom Milam of El Mott, TX were very professional in their approach to their assignment. These gentlemen were very observant, positive and fair in their judgment. Theirs was a herculean job and they performed it well. Over and over, contestants commented on the friendly, helpful, and positive manner in which they conducted themselves. I can assure you that I would run a dog under them and expect an honest appraisal. It has been an honor and privilege to ride with these gentlemen.

The wide spread support from the local community was noted and welcomed by all. The Ames staff was there to marshal us around the course, which was much appreciated since even after two weeks I am not sure I could find my way home. Moses from the County Sherriff’s office was there to guard the road crossings even on Saturdays, one of his days off work. The Ladies of Hickory Valley were there every morning to keep the coffee fresh and serve us Big Al’s biscuits. They provided helpful information to the field trialers that needed local services. We received many comments from the local folks regarding the friendliness and good sportsmanship exhibited by the participants.

Local dog professional Nick Thompson was available to lend his knowledge of the courses and dog savvy to anyone that requested him to scout. Nick has scouted 4 of the last 6 American Field National Champions run at the plantation. To say he knows his way around the grounds is an understatement. Without the help of Nick many of the dogs would have been lost. Away from the dog game Nick lives his life in the good way. Hard working, Christian, family man, Nick and his wife have provided homes to several children that needed guidance in their life, as foster parents, adopting 2 of these young people. Without Nick and the other local dog people that helped out at this event it surely would not have been the successful trial it was. There is one charming lady that was on hand every day. Vera Courtney, owner of Cedar Oak Photography, was present at every brace taking pictures that captured the action and spirit of the event. Vera has been the field trial photographer at Ames for many years. She knows where to be to get photos that capture dogs and people in a beautiful manner. She has granted permission for me to post many of her photos that have been used online by the AKC to highlight this event. Possessing that wonderful southern charm, she is a delight to work with and we were fortunate to have her on hand. Vera has put together a DVD of her pictures from this event and is selling it at a nominal fee to anyone that would like to see inside this event. She can be contacted at Vera Courtney, PO Box 133, 840 Ames Road, Hickory Valley, TN 38042. Her home number is 731-764-2414 and her cell number is 731-433-9145. She can also be reached by email at veracourney@bellsouth.net. I encourage everyone to obtain one of these DVDs as she has hundreds of photos that I have not been able to post to the web.

Many sponsors added to the enjoyment of this trial. Their donations have run the gambit from monetary donations, product donations, hosting meals, and hosting happy hours. It would be impossible to hold an event of this quality without their generous support. Representatives from our great sponsors were on hand throughout. The Gun Dog Championship Association is pleased to receive the continued support of the organizations that have been with us for years but is also happy to welcome new sponsors to the group. These organizations come to the plate to help us in hosting our dog events and we need to support them with our business. Each sponsor offers products that are top line and are used by the long term participants in our sport. Sponsors for the 2012 AKC Gun Dog Championship, listed alphabetically, were Avery Outdoors, Bank of Fayette County, Christie Enterprises, Dogs Unlimited, Eukanuba, Fayette County Chamber of Commerce, Firefly Farms, Garmin, Gun Dog Supply, Hardeman County Chamber of Commerce, Hobart Ames Foundation, Purina, SportsDOG, and Tritronics. I am sure you recognize many of these sponsors as they represent the leading edge of the field dog industry. We all thank them for their support!

I would be remiss if I did not thank my co-workers and good friends on the AKC Staff. Gary Sadler and Bonnie Hidalgo assisted me each day in compiling the information that went into the daily reports. Mel Stewart and Jim Odle, Beagle field reps assisted in moving horses and people during the first week, while Tom Meyer, Spaniel field rep stepped into this role during the second week. Doug Ljungren was on hand the entire second week and it was good to spend this much time with him. They are all professional in their approach, hardworking, and just good people. I am very fortunate to be associated with these fine individuals.

On to next year! I hope to see you in March at Branched Oak in Nebraska.

[Happy Gilmore]

http://www.navhda.org/breeds.html

As long as your dog breed was not developed in North America you have a ok dog according to NAVHDA.. They say so right on their webpage.

[canyonduck]

Talk about getting all wound up and moving off topic.

Here’s the scoop. According to me and to me only.  Every breed regardless if it is a true pointer (English), retriever (Chessy, Lab, etc), Flusher (spaniels), Versatile (Munsterlanders, Shorthairs, Griffons, Vizala, etc.) have a place in a hunter’s home.  If it happens to be your home, then you will doubtless believe you have the greatest breed available.

A Versatile dog is already defined in the hunting and breeding world.  It’s a pointer that retrieves from both land and water as well as has the proven capability to track.  So while Webster’s defines “versatile” in a manner that would include every dog that we may be partial to because it fits the way we like to hunt, it isn’t a Versatile Hunting breed unless it meets the definition above.

Thanks for trying to get this back on topic.  It is an interesting topic.

Question for you - You say a versatile dog is defined in the hunting and breeding world.  Does the versatile dog have to be a pointer?  Where does that definition you quote come from?
 

While anyone could argue what the definition of is is.  NAVHDA - North America Versatile Hunt Dog Association - does a decent job for Versatile as follows:

"In the field, a versatile dog should exhibit a fine nose, staunch pointing and the desire to search for, track and retrieve game in a cooperative manner. A versatile dog needs to further prove his independence, stamina and quality of nose by transferring his search for, and retrieving of game, to the water."