Yellowstone is Dead

[jon.brown509]

  Alight as a very avid hunter and wildlife technician/ future wildlife biologist people what did you think was going to happen to  the eco system when you introduce a apex predator back into the system? Elk in YNP hadn't seen elk for almost 80 years they didn't know how to react so when you have a dumb pray and smart hunter whats going to happen? Think about it than with the wolf population was down they started having multiple feamles in a pack breeding "very rare" The drop from 18,000 elk to ruffly 4,000 is scary but understand the elk numbers are starting to grow again 'thank god" but with all the winter ground north of YNP turning into ranch land the elk aren't leaving there summer grounds in the North part of the park,This has lead to a higher WINTER kill than WOLF kill .I spent 2 months last year building winter grounds to help get the 2 herds in YNP Winter kill numbers down . Elk herds are starting to avoid wolves much better as well  There are several  program in place to help bring elk numbers up and get the wolf population down.Also tell me how tall is the fence at  Yellow Stone ?  lol Think the Elk are just going to stay in the park and get hunted ? lol

[netcoyote]

Here's an example of what the other side is hearing. Somebody is lying.
http://www.npr.org/2014/01/10/261120968/when-big-carnivores-go-down-even-vegetarians-take-the-hit?utm_content=socialflow&utm_campaign=nprfacebook&utm_source=npr&utm_medium=facebook

[jon.brown509]

Well not gonna lie outta how much we understand nature we only know about 3-4% of everything its a large field that's growing everyday as we do new study i'm looking to major in predator study's to see how they effect habit and how using quality predators can help out dramatically
but the packs in YNP mainly the druid pack for example is the largest pack on the park but if they let that pack keep growing without any interference the pack well soon out grow its habitat  and area as well as food source were not going on a genocide but the plan looking to lower the population down to help maintain a steady growing pace for the park maybe the plans have changed since this summer but as far as I know according to Doug smith
here is  a old article which explains a lil of what we did
http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/special-reports/article_c909dd82-3a20-11df-8998-001cc4c002e0.html

[netcoyote]

"...we only know about 3-4% of everything..."

I think you'd get agreement on this forum that that might be the right number for the WDFW.

Just sayin'

[jon.brown509]

 Don't get me wrong guys every instructor I've had and biologist that has come in to do a lil talking to us has said its all about your integrity when it comes to this game the state biologist for our state have lost that "we have recently gone to Montana to have some answers " to double check some data because the data that the wdfw had for this one study "black-tails west-side of state"was corrupted by a biologist the wdfw is trying to get better have faith guys there's a lot of young hunters and outdoors man like myself have had enough of this BS and were going to change it

[Axle]

Alight as a very avid hunter and wildlife technician/ future wildlife biologist people what did you think was going to happen to  the eco system when you introduce a apex predator back into the system?

Keep in mind - this predator was not native. The Canadian wolf is not native to the lower 48 (as wolf advocates would have you think). The wolf advocates are anti hunters at best. They are part of agenda 21 in full swing. If you don't know this, you need to do some reading and studying on this subject. Eradicating this food source (our ungulate herds) is only one piece of the vanishing pie. Most hunters are sitting in their chairs with pot bellies and beer in hand while watching brain-deadening television while this goes on right under their noses and their blind eyes.

[jon.brown509]

  Your right its not native because 385,00 were killed between 1870-1877 In 7 years we pushed them out of the eastern US tell in 1884   when there were over 5450 hides in one year sent out of Montana  Just Montana !"about how many are left in the us today" in 1930's gone no den's  in the Us. almost extinct so you say wolves  never migrated from Canada to upper Montana "to long a trip" lol  in fact there were scat and tracks found from 1930 tell the 70's never a dog though until in  83 we found a pack up in Glacier
but for in Yellow stone i don't think they would have migrated that far down but Also remember Elk only had coyotes to worry about so when they saw wolves they didn't care
your seeing that result. your comment "All Wolf advocates are anti hunters" bugs me ,are you sure you should be breathing air lol jk ? There needs to be a conservation  program in place All biologist are advocates so in your comment every one of us that are in wildlife biology to be advocates to the public , WDFW and forest service  are anti hunter ? does that make any since? I agree most hunters are ignoring whats happening,I'm not a wolf lover but there presence is needed Doug smith a huge Advocate for wolves has killed more wolves than any man since wolfers,Along with Ed Bangs and Joe Fontain mthere needs to programs in place to keep the balance Or else the parvo sickness from upper Canada well start spreading as well.
 Hate to  say this but I've done a lot of reading and been to a lot of public meetings on wolves I've heard both sides argue and i know where they came from and how to handle them "I got to present to a group in the Spokane valley to help people understand whats happening"
as well as I'm part of project coming up in February that well involve a pack removal  and reduction of a area to help some of the smaller packs grow lol

[Axle]

you say wolves  never migrated from Canada to upper Montana "to long a trip" lol  in fact there were scat and tracks found from 1930 tell the 70's never a dog though until in  83 we found a pack up in Glacier

I never said they didn't migrate. The 'native' wolf in our great Northwest states were the timer wolf which is a smaller wolf. I'm no wolf expert but the folks who are have told us that the few remaining timber wolves have been eradicated by the much larger Canadian Grey. 

your comment "All Wolf advocates are anti hunters" bugs me

Well, I didn't word it like that. Look at the groups pushing for the Canadian Gray wolf and then tell me what their agenda is.....
Once the ungulates are gone, they might say "what do you need your guns for? There isn't anything left to hunt?" 
Then again - I'm just thinking out loud. 

[Wacenturion]

As I have said many times in the past, modern wildlife management is responsible for numerous success stories, with many species nationwide.  Wolf reintroduction is one we did not need....period.

Just remember, hunting is a wildlife management tool to harvest the excess and ensure populations do not eat themselves out of house and home.  When severe winters hit the losses are minimized because of this.  Without an excess, there will be greatly limited or no hunting in areas severely impacted by wolves.

If I were an ardent anti hunter, I would embrace wolf introduction.  It's the gift that keeps on giving.     

[jon.brown509]

As I have said many times in the past, modern wildlife management is resonsible for numerous success stories, with many species nationwide.  Wolf reintroduction is one we did not need....period.

Just remember, hunting is a wildlife management tool to harvest the excess and ensure populations do not eat themselves out of house and home.  When severe winters hit the losses are minimized because of this.  Without an excess, there will be greatly limited or no hunting in areas severely impacted by wolves.

If I were an ardent anti hunter, I would embrace wolf introduction.  It's the gift that keeps on giving.     

How was it not successful? Hunting is used in the absence of predator well guess what predators are back.More biologist have killed wolves than hunters and poachers combined !!! understand your hunting is a chance to go hunt enjoy it don't be greedy and why would you embrace wolf introduction if you were a anti hunter? A wolf has to hit carrying capacity and than must have a season to take it out and reduce there impacts you well never be out of hunting.if all of the elk in northeastern Oregon can start from 7 to where they are now 60 years from than i know you'll always have a chance to hunt

[Wacenturion]

As I have said many times in the past, modern wildlife management is resonsible for numerous success stories, with many species nationwide.  Wolf reintroduction is one we did not need....period.

Just remember, hunting is a wildlife management tool to harvest the excess and ensure populations do not eat themselves out of house and home.  When severe winters hit the losses are minimized because of this.  Without an excess, there will be greatly limited or no hunting in areas severely impacted by wolves.

If I were an ardent anti hunter, I would embrace wolf introduction.  It's the gift that keeps on giving.     

How was it not successful? Hunting is used in the absence of predator well guess what predators are back.More biologist have killed wolves than hunters and poachers combined !!! understand your hunting is a chance to go hunt enjoy it don't be greedy and why would you embrace wolf introduction if you were a anti hunter? A wolf has to hit carrying capacity and than must have a season to take it out and reduce there impacts you well never be out of hunting.if all of the elk in northeastern Oregon can start from 7 to where they are now 60 years from than i know you'll always have a chance to hunt

I did not say it was not successful.  Wolf introduction was successful, therein lies the problem.  So in saying that biologists have killed more wolfs than hunters and poachers combined, obviously you're not taking into account any time period prior to the early to mid 1900's.  I rather doubt there were a lot of biologists out there in the 1800's, let alone out there killing wolves.  However there was an abundance of folks killing wolves and every other predator for that matter during the 19th century.

Why would I embrace wolf introduction if I were an anti hunter.  Really...you don't see the connection.  Try this...wolf introductions and pack growth and expansion severely reduce elk numbers, or for that matter, reduce any big game species, like has happened in Yellowstone.  Eventually numbers do not justify hunting season length, number of permits, whatever.  Now hunters are competing with not only tribal allocations, but those of the wolf and other predators.  Bottom line...no excess....not justification for hunting seasons as we know them, now or in the recent past.  A chance to hunt as you say...perhaps.  Hunting opportunities that we enjoy today...not.  If you can't beat the hunter in court, let the wolf be a part of your solution to meet an end result.

If you think that is not a real possibility 10-30 from now in areas of expanding wolf populations, then you need to rethink your methodology.  Its already occuring.

Who's greedy?       

[jon.brown509]

As I have said many times in the past, modern wildlife management is resonsible for numerous success stories, with many species nationwide.  Wolf reintroduction is one we did not need....period.

Just remember, hunting is a wildlife management tool to harvest the excess and ensure populations do not eat themselves out of house and home.  When severe winters hit the losses are minimized because of this.  Without an excess, there will be greatly limited or no hunting in areas severely impacted by wolves.

If I were an ardent anti hunter, I would embrace wolf introduction.  It's the gift that keeps on giving.     

How was it not successful? Hunting is used in the absence of predator well guess what predators are back.More biologist have killed wolves than hunters and poachers combined !!! understand your hunting is a chance to go hunt enjoy it don't be greedy and why would you embrace wolf introduction if you were a anti hunter? A wolf has to hit carrying capacity and than must have a season to take it out and reduce there impacts you well never be out of hunting.if all of the elk in northeastern Oregon can start from 7 to where they are now 60 years from than i know you'll always have a chance to hunt

I did not say it was not successful.  Wolf introduction was successful, therein lies the problem.  So in saying that biologists have killed more wolfs than hunters and poachers combined, obviously you're not taking into account any time period prior to the early to mid 1900's.  I rather doubt there were a lot of biologists out there in the 1800's, let alone out there killing wolves.  However there was an abundance of folks killing wolves and every other predator for that matter during the 19th century.

Why would I embrace wolf introduction if I were an anti hunter.  Really...you don't see the connection.  Try this...wolf introductions and pack growth and expansion severely reduce elk numbers, or for that matter, reduce any big game species, like has happened in Yellowstone.  Eventually numbers do not justify hunting season length, number of permits, whatever.  Now hunters are competing with not only tribal allocations, but those of the wolf and other predators.  Bottom line...no excess....not justification for hunting seasons as we know them, now or in the recent past.  A chance to hunt as you say...perhaps.  Hunting opportunities that we enjoy today...not.  If you can't beat the hunter in court, let the wolf be a part of your solution to meet an end result.

If you think that is not a real possibility 10-30 from now in areas of expanding wolf populations, then you need to rethink your methodology.  Its already occuring.

Who's greedy?     

 I'm not counting wolfers bud modern day hunters who are there to dent wolf populations and don't do dick in my opinion.I like your thought you bring up a good point here's a pic to explain whats happening  with wolfs in the eco system

[jon.brown509]

it's not methodology it's wildlife biology.I'm going for preadation as my headliner in wildlife i can tell you that you won't run out of elk.Ever you well always have a chance to hunt may not be the drive your truck out of town 10 mins to the border of Yellowstone like we used to do in Bozeman area.But there well be good quality hunts for a long long long time be better if seattle would just control there own dam side of the state though .The lil graph well explain what wolves well do  but as wolves expand there well be game management and prederation well be reduced.

[Dhoey07]

Here's an example of what the other side is hearing. Somebody is lying.
http://www.npr.org/2014/01/10/261120968/when-big-carnivores-go-down-even-vegetarians-take-the-hit?utm_content=socialflow&utm_campaign=nprfacebook&utm_source=npr&utm_medium=facebook

With New Zealand having no predators, it must be a barren wasteland with no vegetation, no birds, trampled muddy streams and armies of ungulates waiting to munch on the first dandelion that pops up in the spring!

[KFhunter]

man that is a pretty fur, I'd love to have it draped over my couch