Yellowstone is Dead

[jon.brown509]

Here's an example of what the other side is hearing. Somebody is lying.
http://www.npr.org/2014/01/10/261120968/when-big-carnivores-go-down-even-vegetarians-take-the-hit?utm_content=socialflow&utm_campaign=nprfacebook&utm_source=npr&utm_medium=facebook

With New Zealand having no predators, it must be a barren wasteland with no vegetation, no birds, trampled muddy streams and armies of ungulates waiting to munch on the first dandelion that pops up in the spring!

Crazy how different the  Eco systems are for new zealand and NW America lol ignorance is bliss

[KFhunter]

Are Red deer so much different from Elk?

They're like 1st cousins.  They are so closely related it was only 2004 before Elk went from Cervis elaphus to Cervis Canadensis.

[JLS]

Are Red deer so much different from Elk?

They're like 1st cousins.  They are so closely related it was only 2004 before Elk went from Cervis elaphus to Cervis Canadensis.

They are bigger, faster, roam in much bigger herds, and are much more efficient grazers.  The grass here wouldn't stand a chance 

That wolf would make a gorgeous rug.

[KFhunter]

Elk are bigger, are you being facetious?

[JLS]

Elk are bigger, are you being facetious?

Not me

[KFhunter]

You're alright in my book 


I know you all think I'm a wolf wacko but I think I'm more realist.  I worry about the N/E WA Elk herds and cattle grazing mostly. 

We can't trap them in WA, and we can't hunt them as well as one could in the lower half of ID and MT/WY due to the thick brush here (not that they're doing so well in open country either).   

I just don't know how we're going to control them.  I'd like to see the Elk herds grow in NE/WA and I don't think the wolves are helping them. 

For grazing, the cattle are coming off summer graze underweight and loosing calves. The range riders cost a lot of $ and additional movement of cattle costs a lot as well.   It's not so simple as a wolf killing a cow here and there, there are multiple compounded effects.

[idahohuntr]

I know you all think I'm a wolf wacko but I think I'm more realist.  I worry about the N/E WA Elk herds and cattle grazing mostly.   

Even if I disagree with you (strongly sometimes ), I think your passion is in the right place...you care about hunting. 

[bearpaw]

As I have said many times in the past, modern wildlife management is resonsible for numerous success stories, with many species nationwide.  Wolf reintroduction is one we did not need....period.

Just remember, hunting is a wildlife management tool to harvest the excess and ensure populations do not eat themselves out of house and home.  When severe winters hit the losses are minimized because of this.  Without an excess, there will be greatly limited or no hunting in areas severely impacted by wolves.

If I were an ardent anti hunter, I would embrace wolf introduction.  It's the gift that keeps on giving.     

How was it not successful? Hunting is used in the absence of predator well guess what predators are back.More biologist have killed wolves than hunters and poachers combined !!! understand your hunting is a chance to go hunt enjoy it don't be greedy and why would you embrace wolf introduction if you were a anti hunter? A wolf has to hit carrying capacity and than must have a season to take it out and reduce there impacts you well never be out of hunting.if all of the elk in northeastern Oregon can start from 7 to where they are now 60 years from than i know you'll always have a chance to hunt

Elk prospered in Oregon because predators were kept in check for many years, that holds true in most states regarding all our big game herds. Anti-hunters are embracing and promoting all these predators as they know if reduces hunting opportunity, it's not too hard to understand.

Are you are saying that as a biologist you will get to hunt a lot of predators and that all the ranching losses and reduction in hunting opportunities for hunters is just collateral damage? What's important is that you will get to hunt predators as a biologist?

[LDennis24]

 Mr. Brown you cannot seriously think that biologist's have killed more wolves than hunter's ever have. Where are you going to school at? You say that hunting has replaced wolf predation over the year's and agree that reintroduction will put the herd population back in check so where will the excess ungulates be that hunter's will be able to pursue? How will this not hurt hunting opportunities in the future? Also I would love to see photo's of area's that have been decimated by over grazing from ungulates besides cattle. Working in a chemical and pesticide company I see firsthand what happen's when rangeland is left ungrazed and weeds aren't kept in check by grazing whether it be cattle or deer and elk. Who's going to pay for weed control if things grow as tall and pretty as your picture suggests they will? Someone should redraw that pic with alot of knapweed, thistle's, russian thistle, skeleton weed, koschia and pigweed and all the other weed's kept in check by ungulates that eat them. Chemical's are not the answer either. What is prederation? Or preadation for that matter? Ignorance is bliss!

[RadSav]

I'm not counting wolfers bud modern day hunters who are there to dent wolf populations and don't do dick in my opinion.I like your thought you bring up a good point here's a pic to explain whats happening  with wolfs in the eco system

Wholly cow!  You must be a youngster.  Must never have been to a Yellowstone without wolves.  Even with an uncontrolled elk and buffalo population the eco system there was thriving.  Most of us over the age of 15 have been there before the wolf introduction.  It was one of the most beautiful places on earth.  It supported a huge population of animals and could have easily supported more.  That picture is priceless as a representation of an artists vision of what was and is without having to have actual proof based in reality.  Picked from the reality of ones imagination.

In drought years the issue was not a lack of summer feed or eco system.  It was the wintering range of the elk.  Most of which falls outside the boarders of the park.  There the wintering feed had to compete with an uncontrolled bison herd, domestic cattle range, the fragile elk and deer herds and human encroachment.  The elk and deer had about as much impact on that eco system as humans have in global warming.  It's a crock of crap those of us old enough to have seen it with our own eyes can attest.  I hope you are not paying too much for that education your getting because it's looking like your being robbed of your parents savings.

Next time your school wants to have a guest speaker spew wolf based fact maybe you should request a counter point from actual elk and deer biologists.  The US Geological Survey is loaded with good ones.  I might suggest one that is familiar with Washington and Idaho's elk herds that is old enough to have been actively involved from pre-wolf introduction and post introduction.  Someone like Glen Sargeant.  Not only is he a great biologist with history in Washington state, but he actually knows how to write and speak in proper English too.  Oh, and by the way...his father (also a biologist) is one of the leading authorities on predators of North America!  You would probably know of him if you were getting a real open minded education. 

But I am assuming your getting your facts from professors there in Pullman.  The place where the WDFW gets their information on cougar behavior.  You know, like killing cougars actually increases the cougar population so reducing cougar harvests is the in the best interest in controlling the population.   If you are serious about this predator biologist thing you might want to look into transferring to Oregon State or the University of Wisconsin for a year or two.  It would allow you a chance to see a view from more than one side of the fence.

I think you have the desire to learn the real facts.  And I think you are headed to a field of study that should be rewarding and lead to a satisfying career.  I wish the very best to you in reaching your goals and becoming a factor in the study and field.  I'd hate to see such passion and dedication ruined by an education so limited in view and dictated by a handful of closed minded narcissists.

Sargeant Sr. no longer does speaking engagements.  But, I know for fact that the USGS does send Sargeant Jr. to Washington regularly for educational purposes.  Even if the university will not have him come speak I'm sure he would be more than happy to answer questions if you and other students would like to reach out.  He has a strong connection with Washington having spent time with Battell  in Hanford studies and the Yakima's with their elk studies. (BTW - neither of which would use a WSU biologist for the studies Sargeant ran)  He is a unique opportunity as one of the few with his foundation in predation and his chosen field in elk studies.  I think you would get a lot of useful information that could be life altering in your continued education.  Good luck!

[Dhoey07]

With New Zealand having no predators, it must be a barren wasteland with no vegetation, no birds, trampled muddy streams and armies of ungulates waiting to munch on the first dandelion that pops up in the spring!
[/quote]

Crazy how different the  Eco systems are for new zealand and NW America lol ignorance is bliss
[/quote]

Just so we are on the same page, you are saying that either 1. New Zealand ungulate populations would be better off with predators or 2. There are Eco systems where predators (other than humans) are not needed and ungulats flourish.  Or is my ignorance shining through again?

[Wacenturion]

Where did you come up with that tree hugging redention of compared ecosystems with and without wolves?  You're telling me the photo on the left is realistic...no beaver, no fish, no bird life?  So add wolves and magically we add beavers, fish and small birds.  Wow, I'm glad we can all relax now.  What a bunch of baloney.

What school are you attending?  May I suggest you consider either changing professors or school.

Of course with all the environmentalist types joining the ranks of biologists in state and federal agencies these days, you thought process may fit right in.

Don't mean to be negative, but you're looking through the wrong set of glasses.

[jon.brown509]

Where did you come up with that tree hugging redention of compared ecosystems with and without wolves?  You're telling me the photo on the left is realistic...no beaver, no fish, no bird life?  So add wolves and magically we add beavers, fish and small birds.  Wow, I'm glad we can all relax now.  What a bunch of baloney.

What school are you attending?  May I suggest you consider either changing professors or school.

Of course with all the environmentalist types joining the ranks of biologists in state and federal agencies these days, you thought process may fit right in.

Don't mean to be negative, but you're looking through the wrong set of glasses.

 It's not my view that's wrong.Wolves are a problem if there not managed correctly.I would rather have hunters educated and engaging in these jobs and decisions to beat these liberal SOB in Seattle that think they know whats best  for us. I guess that poster that the Natural resources put out to explain why wolves are needed is literally how the landscape has changed.If you think there's no place for wolves than your part of the biggest problem hunters face.That shows  you don't know how to balance human wants over Nature needs.Which one do you think is more important?
I'm going to the best wildlife program around University of Idaho 'sorry if I sounded like pullman didn't mean to come off that way"
My instructor was the Main Elk biologist for Idaho for 8 years bud.I'll trust his view's and knowledge over ignorance
And here's a graph of wildlife populations in YNP.
  :twocents:How's that Baloney ? I am a hunter I Think theres nothing more awesome than a giant bull Elk my personal favorite .One of the reasons I went and helped restored winter grounds around YNP for elk .What the hell have you done to help with the problem? I may be real green but at least I'm trying to make a difference and solve the situation to help stabilize predators through out the north west.Figure its better me than some wolf loving tree licking dirt humping psycho from California

[jon.brown509]

With New Zealand having no predators, it must be a barren wasteland with no vegetation, no birds, trampled muddy streams and armies of ungulates waiting to munch on the first dandelion that pops up in the spring!

Crazy how different the  Eco systems are for new zealand and NW America lol ignorance is bliss
[/quote]

 It is in your case do some research into New Zealand and see what kind mess there in. There losing vegetation like crazy and have a major red deer over population problem 5 birds have been added to the ESA list from there do to habitat loss and the tar that's spreading from over crazing is insane.There's no bag limit on red deer btw 
It's shinny er than benders bright metal A$$ lol

[Dhoey07]

After studying your graph, it looks like since 1995 we traded 15,000 elk for 40 wolves, 1200 bison and 10 beavers