2 year old Brittany not holding point

[johng]

Hi,

So I have two year old Brittany who comes from a good line of hunting dogs but I am having some issues with him ranging too far out of shooting range and busting birds on me.  I love the little guy, and he has gotten me birds, but would really appreciate you more experienced gun dog owner's advice on how to train him better.

To completely set the table- I hunted him as a pup his first year and this is our second year hunting together.  This is my fourth season hunting.

What I have been doing mostly this season is using an e-collar on him and zapping him at a moderate level when he ranges too far.  I know this is probably not the best way of going about things because I worry that I could be buzzing him when he is on a bird's trail but it is pretty darn frustrating when I see a rooster pop up 100 yards (or more as the case has been) away from me.   

So you probably have all heard of the book "Gun Dog"..... I have the book and also the video that was made later after the author Wolters passing.  Opie, my Britt, knows "Whoa" but when we are in the field he doesn't really listen to "Whoa".  If we are training at a park or in my backyard with a dead pheasant, quail or whatever he will "Whoa" and not go any nearer the bird.  But again, in the field Whoa is not on his radar... I think he just gets overcome with the hunt and the chase.

What would you all suggest?  How can I get him to lock up on a point and wait for me to get there?  Sometimes he will head into a creek bottom / cattails after a pheasant and I lose track of where he is so saying "Whoa" isn't always an option when I can't see him.  I have been running him with a bell lately which helps in some respects but the real thing I am missing is getting him to point and hold point until Dad gets there.

Here are a couple shots of me and him this season.

Thanks for any help you all can provide!!!!!

- John

p.s. The one pic with the three hen pheasants was Western WA and I was hunting with my buddy that day (he got one and I got two).

[NW-GSP]

Have you been shoting bird that your dog had not pointed or has busted?. By doing that you can turn a pointer into a flusher.

[AspenBud]

Will the dog point a bird in a controlled situation without you saying "whoa?"

[jetjockey]

Put the e-collar away and burn Wolters books.  Then do yourself a favor and order the "Perfect Start/Perfect Finish" video series.

When you zap your dog because he ranges too far, does he know he's ranging too far?  Have you taught him how to handle and to go with you?  My guess is probably not, so he has no idea why your zapping him.  Get back to the basics and yard work, then put your dog on birds in a controlled situation.

[WRL]

I think you need to get with a pointer trainer.

You are going to have to undo somethings. Sooner than later.

WRL

[Birddogman]

Take the run out of him later if you have too.  Sounds like you need some yard work and controlled set ups.  If he points in the yard with a dead bird, the "gig" is up!  Sounds like a couple problems have occurred here.  I see the pics with birds, so i can assume he did bump them? If he bumped and u fired and killed the quail, that is Not good!  you taught him no matter what, he still gets the reward.  When my dogs are young i don't shoot the bumped birds, i want them to associate me as part of the team to get the bird (but the dog has to have manners).  Its never too late to teach a dog to point and hold for the flush and kill.

My 2 cents are this- 

Use live birds and de-evolve his habit of bumping.  Obviously he knows how to scent birds, so hide a pigeon (twist its wings) and hide it.  Bring you dog in down wind, when u see him scenting it, look to see him point (if he does, great.  If not, pull gently back on the check cord till he stops).  At that point you can use whoa (but I just gently lift the tail, gently push toward the game to see if he wants to hold), hold it for a few then pick up the pup and put him up.  Next day, try again (different local on bird so he doesn't figure out what the hell you are doing).  This time the goal is that he locks up on the scent without encouragement.  Then you whoa (if needed or use a hand signal), hopefully he is tuned up and holding point.  Wait a few and pick him up. 

Of course there are many ways to get him to point and many styles, but this has worked for me so I am telling you what I have done.

Next time go out with a gun and another person on that gun.  Use a check cord.  Lead the dog up like you have and wait for him to stick the bird.  Once he has stuck the bird,  flush it, let it fly on (at this point you can kill it and let it fall (all the while holding to go slightly before letting go for retrieve.  < a lot of hunters do this>!  I don't cuz I don't want my dog to go on the flush, I wan to tell him to go.  So I normally let it fly on for a couple sessions, then blank the bird (the gunner does that), lead the dog off.  Two or three time later (dependent of foundation on dog), you are ready for the kill.

Take him out in the backyard and set up a bird, have him stick it, your gunner flushes, and your dog should respect the flush, at this point make the kill (your dog may break on the fall, most likely).  < Some hunters does this>!

If you want a finish dog, it is just more of these drills, and holding the dog through the fall and then releasing for the retrieve.  Repetition and control, then change of venue.  < A lot of hunters and Field trialers do this>!

Old timers did this yard work tons of ways from "spot" pointing, to bench work, whoa training with ropes and intense training.  Often a lot of trainers do this yard work without exercising the dog and over feeding to make the dog more lethargic!? 

Most important is you know your dog, we are just guessing how to work with him.  If the problem is too big for your skills then consult a trainer or a book, otherwise try some of the tips I provided. 

Good luck!

Ps. i didn't spell check this...sorry!

[wildweeds]

You always hunt him with a flusher in tandem?The lab in the picture throws up an immediate red flag  as to part of the problem for me.Concur with Jets reccomendation on burning wolters books,wolters was a writer not a dog trainer,he wrote books on training a dog.Theres a big difference between a writer who writes about training and a trainer who writes about training .Wing and shot is a book you should read,and read it twice,Robert Wehle was a breeder/trainer of pointers who wrote a book,Type his name in your browser and your screen will light up with multiple pages of massive hits,Elhew.

[johng]

Good morning,

Thank you all *very much* for the insightful replies!  This site truly is a blessing for someone who is learning such as myself.

So to answer some questions that were posed by the group:

#1) Yes, I have been shooting birds he flushes and doesn't point.  It does make sense to me now that isn't a good idea and I can see how I have a Brittany at the moment who is more a flusher than a pointer. 

#2) And yes, I have hunted him alongside my buddy's Lab.  Also, 20-20 hindsight I can see this being a problem...  I do have a followup question on this though.  Do guys ever run a well trained pointer and a well trained flusher together or is that just not done?   

#3) I do need to go back to basics upon further reflection.... he isn't pointing in the backyard so why should I expect him to do it in the field?  I can have him on the check cord, have a dead pheasant back there and have him "Whoa" before he gets to the bird and he will honor that but he won't lock up on point without the check cord and me saying "Whoa".... 

Finally, I think I will contact the breeder who is a super cool guy and very knowledgeable and we will hopefully work on this come spring/summer.  It's a drive up to Whatcom County for a training session but I think it will have to be done.

Again, really appreciate your guys' help.  There are some nice looking dogs in your profile pics!!! 

Hope everyone has a good rest of the season.

- John (and Opie)

[jetjockey]

I don't even run my brit with an unbroke pointing dog, let alone a flushing dog. 

[Blackjaw]

In general the best way to ruin a pointer is to let it hunt with a flushing dog. If I go to the field with a guy that has a pointer I will hunt my dogs in cockers different part of the field, or keep them at heel and release them for a retrieve if needed.

You can also alternate dogs from field to field to keep them semi-fresh (alternate keeping one in the truck). I do this with my own dogs because I am not good enough to keep one at heel while the other hunts and switch them out like some people can do.

[Skyvalhunter]

NIce looking dog I will take him off your hands.

[jackson7]

Don't get too worried. All are fixable.
personally I would get out with a trainer and observe. Another cheaper option is to go to some field trials and chat with some very knowledgeable people who might be willing to help.
All dogs will bust birds based on scenting conditions and wind. As far as him getting out, that is a pointing dogs job. Once she holds point you will be glad she is out there. Good luck.

[bracer40]

If you've been following along on other threads about training pointing dog breeds, I'll repeat the words of other, more experienced members. Get him on live birds. Pigeons are cheap. If you can get ahold of, or know somebody who has them and is willing to share, a launcher can provide all sorts of scenarios that will aid in training your dog to "not bust birds" and to hold his point until released. Of course launchers would be used together with  check cords/training collars and eventually the e-collar (a training device, not for punishment.........well, except for trash breaking, but that's another topic altogether).
Great advice to get out to some field trials to meet others who have more experience in training dogs. Hunt tests are another good venue.
Your training time and resources might best be served by finding a pro who would be willing to work with you to "train the trainer."

Good luck!

[JLS]

Sounds to me like you are now on the right track.   Based on what you're telling us, you can command your dog to point and hold, but he won't do it on his own.  It's his job to do it on his own as there is no feasible way you can always have an eye on him.  My pup is pointing and holding, and we haven't even started on the whoa command.

[Shannon]

Get a loft of homing pigeons going. Its going to take a lot of birds flushed out of a launcher to correct your problems. I recommend the Perfect start and Perfect Finish videos also. I like the book "Training with Mo" also. Good luck.

[AspenBud]

#3) I do need to go back to basics upon further reflection.... he isn't pointing in the backyard so why should I expect him to do it in the field?  I can have him on the check cord, have a dead pheasant back there and have him "Whoa" before he gets to the bird and he will honor that but he won't lock up on point without the check cord and me saying "Whoa".... 

A dead bird isn't the greatest way to work on steadying a dog. But if the dog has never pointed a live bird without you saying "whoa" you may have other problems on your hands (the instinct may just not be there, it happens).

Whatever the case I would put away the shotgun and get the dog on birds, lots and lots of birds, and see if he can learn from his mistakes and start pointing. Stop saying "whoa," it's a worthless command when the dog is any distance away, and let the dog learn.

Regarding hacking with the e-collar. If you're having to use it a lot the dog isn't ready to be hunted. It's acceptable to teach the dog how to handle that way but you want to make sure the dog has it down before hunting with him. You also want to be careful not to kill its drive. This is best done in areas relatively free of birds. It is possible that you've exacerbated other problems and turned the dog into a blinker.

I would recommend finding a good trainer to help you out.

[wildweeds]

Hardest thing for the first timer that is new to hunting as well is to watch the quarry fly off because of an action of the dog.I can say that i screwed up my first pointer. not in the pointing department but in other ways.He was a runoff because of e collar hacking.He found it more enjoyable to runoff and self hunt.