The ecology of fear: Elk responses to wolves in Yellowstone are not what we thou

[bearpaw]

Idaho offers some of the best elk hunting in the country and Bearpaw Outfitters have several excellent elk hunting options in Southeast Idaho - BEARPAW OUTFITTERS

THIS IS A DIRECT QUOTE FROM YOUR WEBPAGE     

Sounds like you would actually agree with my assessment??

Just keep on telling everyone that wolves have little impact. 

Just keep telling everyone there are only a few elk left in Idaho  It will leave more for me.

We all know there are units in Idaho that wolves have not yet impacted heavily. However, 1/3 of the state has been impacted extensively and wolves are moving into new areas. No other single factor has impacted elk and moose herds to the magnitude as wolves. This has taken away from countless local families, outfitters, and hunters from around the country.

Feel free to try and say wolves have little impact, the documented proof speaks for itself.

You need to re-read my post.  I clearly state there are areas that are impacted by wolves, usually in combination with other factors.  I specifically mention the lolo zone.  However, there are large areas of Idaho where elk hunting is still good...as described on your outfitter website. 

The wolf lover groups always try to hide the real localized impacts of wolves by saying overall state harvest has not been impacted and blaming habitat. You sound almost exactly like you are one of "them". 

[AspenBud]

http://www.ktvq.com/news/gardiner-elk-hunt-falls-victim-to-wolves/

Gardiner elk hunt falls victim to wolves

GARDINER - One of the consequences of "Living with Wolves" is the elimination of a special late season elk hunt near Gardiner that has been part of the Montana hunting scene for the past 35 years. The January hunt was firstconducted in 1976, to help manage elk migrating out of Yellowstone National Park. At that time, the park's northern herd had reached as many as 12-thousand animals.

But once wolves were reintroduced to the park, the northern herd's numbers started declining. In 2005, game managers counted 9,545 elk. Three years later that figure had dropped to 3,912 animals, and by 2009 the herd's population was down to 3,511 elk. This year, FWP's aerial surveys of the northern herd outside the park's boundaries counted only 2,236 animals.

Last week, Montana's Fish and Game Commission voted to end the late season hunt citing elk numbers that had fallen below target levels due to predation mainly from wolves, but also from grizzly bears. The Montana Elk Plan established in 2004 called for a population of between 3-thousand to 5-thousand elk in the portion of the Northern elk herd that winters in Montana.

For whatever it's worth, the populations do seem to rise and fall together...

"Overall, Yellowstone’s wolf population has declined by roughly 50 percent since 2007, when 171 wolves roamed the park.

The wolves in Yellowstone’s northern range suffered the largest losses in 2012. This decline coincided with a drop in elk numbers in the same area. Wolves primarily prey on elk, and researchers calculated elk comprised 62 percent of all 2012 Yellowstone wolf kills."

http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/newshound/2014/01/report-yellowstone-wolf-populations-declines-predators-target-bison

[bearpaw]

For whatever it's worth, the populations do seem to rise and fall together...

"Overall, Yellowstone’s wolf population has declined by roughly 50 percent since 2007, when 171 wolves roamed the park.

The wolves in Yellowstone’s northern range suffered the largest losses in 2012. This decline coincided with a drop in elk numbers in the same area. Wolves primarily prey on elk, and researchers calculated elk comprised 62 percent of all 2012 Yellowstone wolf kills."

http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/newshound/2014/01/report-yellowstone-wolf-populations-declines-predators-target-bison

Completely agree, from the beginning I have said if wolf groups would support wolf management it would result in stable herds and more wolves in the end, if herds drop they can't support as many wolves, but most wolf lovers can't think that well, and the rest are using wolves to curtail hunting. 

[bearpaw]

You need to re-read my post.  I clearly state there are areas that are impacted by wolves, usually in combination with other factors.  I specifically mention the lolo zone.  However, there are large areas of Idaho where elk hunting is still good...as described on your outfitter website. 

In your statements you use the zones that still have elk to try and say that hunting is still just as good in Idaho when we can all read about the significant localized impacts. 

Please keep in mind as you are typing away trying to convince us that wolves are nothing to worry about, the governor of Idaho has a hired trapper removing wolves from the Idaho wilderness to try and save the elk herds. 

[KFhunter]

They're still breeding Aspen, they're just driving off the sub adults and they disperse into area's with more game.

It's what they do, breed and disperse.  Pretty soon they'll have dispersed everywhere and established packs anywhere there is enough game and habitat...but they'll continure to breed anyways and we'll be inundated with sub adults constantly in populated areas with domestic livestock, pets and kids catching the school bus - Sub adults that are half starved and going for anything it can get into it's mouth.

That's the future and I see it clearly.

[bearpaw]

   x2

[idahohuntr]

In your statements you use the zones that still have elk to try and say that hunting is still just as good in Idaho when we can all read about the significant localized impacts. 

Please keep in mind as you are typing away trying to convince us that wolves are nothing to worry about, the governor of Idaho has a hired trapper removing wolves from the Idaho wilderness to try and save the elk herds. 

You continue to distort what I say...I really don't see where we disagree much about the status of elk hunting in Idaho.  You said about 1/3 of Idaho has had extensive impact from wolves...which means about 2/3 of the state is doing alright...this is largely what I believe when I described 3 "types" of areas in Idaho.   

[AspenBud]

They're still breeding Aspen, they're just driving off the sub adults and they disperse into area's with more game.

It's what they do, breed and disperse.  Pretty soon they'll have dispersed everywhere and established packs anywhere there is enough game and habitat...but they'll continure to breed anyways and we'll be inundated with sub adults constantly in populated areas with domestic livestock, pets and kids catching the school bus - Sub adults that are half starved and going for anything it can get into it's mouth.

That's the future and I see it clearly.

I see it a little differently. I think you're right, but I suspect the influx of sub adults will ebb and flow with the prey populations. You'll have some years that are more dangerous to be out there than others. A wolf population coming off a boom and heading into decline will make for more dangerous individuals such as the sub adults you're talking about. A population in decline however will be producing fewer pups that even make it to that stage. When the prey numbers go back up, the wolves eat better and the cycle restarts until the next decline.

Completely agree, from the beginning I have said if wolf groups would support wolf management it would result in stable herds and more wolves in the end, if herds drop they can't support as many wolves, but most wolf lovers can't think that well, and the rest are using wolves to curtail hunting. 

Along the lines of my response to KFHunter's comment above, this method, what you're proposing here Bearpaw, would likely also produce more predictable and fewer dangerous individuals. I agree.

I would rather see a managed population of wolves that can find all the food they need than a group that is so desperate for food that they'll do just about anything. It's the desperate times for wolves that lead to bad press, that and the impact on livestock owners.

[KFhunter]

YNP has been doing this for 20 years,  has there been any instance of the Elk population increasing?

If you look at the graph jon.brown509 tossed up the answer is no.  If it were stock market graph it'd be a bear market for sure.

If YNP is the test pond of what we'll be seeing then I see no indication of the possibility of Elk populations increasing with the introduction of wolves.  As yourself have stated the wolves have leveled out in YNP - yet the Elk continue to decline.


I've used your evidence against you.

[KFhunter]

They're still breeding Aspen, they're just driving off the sub adults and they disperse into area's with more game.

It's what they do, breed and disperse.  Pretty soon they'll have dispersed everywhere and established packs anywhere there is enough game and habitat...but they'll continure to breed anyways and we'll be inundated with sub adults constantly in populated areas with domestic livestock, pets and kids catching the school bus - Sub adults that are half starved and going for anything it can get into it's mouth.

That's the future and I see it clearly.

I see it a little differently. I think you're right, but I suspect the influx of sub adults will ebb and flow with the prey populations. You'll have some years that are more dangerous to be out there than others. A wolf population coming off a boom and heading into decline will make for more dangerous individuals such as the sub adults you're talking about. A population in decline however will be producing fewer pups that even make it to that stage. When the prey numbers go back up, the wolves eat better and the cycle restarts until the next decline.

Completely agree, from the beginning I have said if wolf groups would support wolf management it would result in stable herds and more wolves in the end, if herds drop they can't support as many wolves, but most wolf lovers can't think that well, and the rest are using wolves to curtail hunting. 

Along the lines of my response to KFHunter's comment above, this method, what you're proposing here Bearpaw, would likely also produce more predictable and fewer dangerous individuals. I agree.

I would rather see a managed population of wolves that can find all the food they need than a group that is so desperate for food that they'll do just about anything. It's the desperate times for wolves that lead to bad press, that and the impact on livestock owners.

Then what management tool do you suggest I use?  I'd be more than happy to do my part in managing the wolves in a legal way.
I've asked this question many times and no one has answered it.

What can we do as sportsmen to help manage wolves in WA? 


WDFW isn't confirming packs, we're already well beyond the required packs established in the "wolf plan".  WDFW isn't going to gun them from helicopters ever again.  Traps are illegal, poison illegal everywhere.   

The management tools are NOT in place - thus we will see sub adults and rogue packs and continued decline of Elk.

[Humptulips]

They're still breeding Aspen, they're just driving off the sub adults and they disperse into area's with more game.

It's what they do, breed and disperse.  Pretty soon they'll have dispersed everywhere and established packs anywhere there is enough game and habitat...but they'll continure to breed anyways and we'll be inundated with sub adults constantly in populated areas with domestic livestock, pets and kids catching the school bus - Sub adults that are half starved and going for anything it can get into it's mouth.

That's the future and I see it clearly.

I see it a little differently. I think you're right, but I suspect the influx of sub adults will ebb and flow with the prey populations. You'll have some years that are more dangerous to be out there than others. A wolf population coming off a boom and heading into decline will make for more dangerous individuals such as the sub adults you're talking about. A population in decline however will be producing fewer pups that even make it to that stage. When the prey numbers go back up, the wolves eat better and the cycle restarts until the next decline.

Completely agree, from the beginning I have said if wolf groups would support wolf management it would result in stable herds and more wolves in the end, if herds drop they can't support as many wolves, but most wolf lovers can't think that well, and the rest are using wolves to curtail hunting. 

Along the lines of my response to KFHunter's comment above, this method, what you're proposing here Bearpaw, would likely also produce more predictable and fewer dangerous individuals. I agree.

I would rather see a managed population of wolves that can find all the food they need than a group that is so desperate for food that they'll do just about anything. It's the desperate times for wolves that lead to bad press, that and the impact on livestock owners.

I think you make a mistake when you assume that prey numbers will cycle up when wolf numbers are forced down by lack of prey.
As long as there are wolves out there prey populations will stay down. Ever heard the term predator pit. I think that is what you will have without intervention by man.

[AspenBud]

YNP has been doing this for 20 years,  has there been any instance of the Elk population increasing?

If you look at the graph jon.brown509 tossed up the answer is no.  If it were stock market graph it'd be a bear market for sure.

If YNP is the test pond of what we'll be seeing then I see no indication of the possibility of Elk populations increasing with the introduction of wolves.  As yourself have stated the wolves have leveled out in YNP - yet the Elk continue to decline.


I've used your evidence against you.

Hm, and up until 2007 the wolves in the park kept gaining in number and since then their numbers have decreased. Or rather, their numbers have fallen off a cliff.

If I had a crystal ball I would tell you when equilibrium is reached, but I don't and I can't. That's the big problem along with many other things in this, it's all one big experiment.

So no, you haven't used anything against me.

[AspenBud]

They're still breeding Aspen, they're just driving off the sub adults and they disperse into area's with more game.

It's what they do, breed and disperse.  Pretty soon they'll have dispersed everywhere and established packs anywhere there is enough game and habitat...but they'll continure to breed anyways and we'll be inundated with sub adults constantly in populated areas with domestic livestock, pets and kids catching the school bus - Sub adults that are half starved and going for anything it can get into it's mouth.

That's the future and I see it clearly.

I see it a little differently. I think you're right, but I suspect the influx of sub adults will ebb and flow with the prey populations. You'll have some years that are more dangerous to be out there than others. A wolf population coming off a boom and heading into decline will make for more dangerous individuals such as the sub adults you're talking about. A population in decline however will be producing fewer pups that even make it to that stage. When the prey numbers go back up, the wolves eat better and the cycle restarts until the next decline.

Completely agree, from the beginning I have said if wolf groups would support wolf management it would result in stable herds and more wolves in the end, if herds drop they can't support as many wolves, but most wolf lovers can't think that well, and the rest are using wolves to curtail hunting. 

Along the lines of my response to KFHunter's comment above, this method, what you're proposing here Bearpaw, would likely also produce more predictable and fewer dangerous individuals. I agree.

I would rather see a managed population of wolves that can find all the food they need than a group that is so desperate for food that they'll do just about anything. It's the desperate times for wolves that lead to bad press, that and the impact on livestock owners.

Then what management tool do you suggest I use?  I'd be more than happy to do my part in managing the wolves in a legal way.
I've asked this question many times and no one has answered it.

What can we do as sportsmen to help manage wolves in WA? 


WDFW isn't confirming packs, we're already well beyond the required packs established in the "wolf plan".  WDFW isn't going to gun them from helicopters ever again.  Traps are illegal, poison illegal everywhere.   

The management tools are NOT in place - thus we will see sub adults and rogue packs and continued decline of Elk.

You're picking a fight where there is no fight to pick. You shoot them.

You might be sore because I utterly disagree with you on habitat but we share some common agreements on the wolf issue. Get over it.

[AspenBud]

They're still breeding Aspen, they're just driving off the sub adults and they disperse into area's with more game.

It's what they do, breed and disperse.  Pretty soon they'll have dispersed everywhere and established packs anywhere there is enough game and habitat...but they'll continure to breed anyways and we'll be inundated with sub adults constantly in populated areas with domestic livestock, pets and kids catching the school bus - Sub adults that are half starved and going for anything it can get into it's mouth.

That's the future and I see it clearly.

I see it a little differently. I think you're right, but I suspect the influx of sub adults will ebb and flow with the prey populations. You'll have some years that are more dangerous to be out there than others. A wolf population coming off a boom and heading into decline will make for more dangerous individuals such as the sub adults you're talking about. A population in decline however will be producing fewer pups that even make it to that stage. When the prey numbers go back up, the wolves eat better and the cycle restarts until the next decline.

Completely agree, from the beginning I have said if wolf groups would support wolf management it would result in stable herds and more wolves in the end, if herds drop they can't support as many wolves, but most wolf lovers can't think that well, and the rest are using wolves to curtail hunting. 

Along the lines of my response to KFHunter's comment above, this method, what you're proposing here Bearpaw, would likely also produce more predictable and fewer dangerous individuals. I agree.

I would rather see a managed population of wolves that can find all the food they need than a group that is so desperate for food that they'll do just about anything. It's the desperate times for wolves that lead to bad press, that and the impact on livestock owners.

I think you make a mistake when you assume that prey numbers will cycle up when wolf numbers are forced down by lack of prey.
As long as there are wolves out there prey populations will stay down. Ever heard the term predator pit. I think that is what you will have without intervention by man.

You can hug that concept close if you want, I don't have an answer for you. Again, the problem is it's all one big experiment. No one knows what ungulate populations will be thrown into a "predator pit" and which will not. They threw wolves into out of balance ecosystems and no one knows what the outcome will be. Abundant food can make a predator population grow wildly big wildly fast. What happens when you turn loose wolves on prey that haven't seen predation in years in areas where they either historically never existed or in numbers far above what they were pre-wolf extirpation is anyone's guess. It's literally a big gamble. You don't know, I don't know, and the the anti wolf hunting public does not know.

Bearpaw makes a very good point. Why not have the wolves, manage them, and keep everyone happy rather than letting the experiment run it's cycle win lose or draw? More bad blood will be created if the ungulates are hunted out, more bad blood will be created if half starved wolves go looking for food in places they shouldn't and become more unpredictable. That is a VERY reasonable argument in favor of managing them with lethal force.

[Humptulips]

One thing for sure this wolf reintroduction has been a huge boon to someone coming out of college with a PHD in Wildlife Biology or ecology or a related field. Graduate, get a fat government grant and you're set.
I think that is why so many of them are so infatuated with wolves. It's their bread and butter.