Chpt. #4 Sabotless Failure

[Sabotloader]

I really do really hate posting failures but since I started this I guess I need to...

Monday, I knurled up another set of Lehigh .500x350 grain bullets.  I had decided I wanted to shoot them from my Knight Mountaineer with a Western Kit installed.  I use #11 Mag or RWS 1075+ caps a NECG adjustable peep mounted on a Warne scope block.



One of the questions asked was if I would get the same velocity shooting the same powder load I was shooting the last time, but instead of igniting it with a 209 primer - using a percussion cap.

That was the only really successful part of the shooting trip.  The velocities were greater than the 209 ignited powder loads but that small difference can be attributed to the longer barrel on the Mountaineer (3" longer).  The load was 120 grains of T7-2f.  I will suggest to you that 120 grains of powder with a 350 grain bullet is more than I would normally use with cap ignition.  During the shoot I also made a mental note - not one of the #11 caps survived enough to offer me anything to tip out of the breech area.  When I opened the bolt to get the cap out is was gone or I might find a very small piece on occasion.

Shot  (120 gr. T7-2f)
#1  1885 fps
#2  1876 fps
#3  1848 fps
#4  1870 fps

Shot (110 gr. of T7-2f)
#5  1765 fps
#6  1785 fps
#7  1748 fps

With the Ultra Lite I was averaging 1800 fps with a 120 grains of T7-2f. So really cap versus primer - same 0 same 0 with a know good powder.

Now the failure... and I believe I know the reason. This particular rifle shoots Bull Shop lead conicals very accurately.  I sighted it in using a Bull Shop .503x400 gr. LGP last fall and it proved to be a great round for the rifle.

Monday, I did notice that when I loaded the knurled Lehigh, they loaded very well through the crown and down the first third of the barrel, then after that the weight of the Range Rod would slide the bullet and sub base down to the powder.  I really did not think much about it at the time.

I loaded and shot the first four shots through the chrono.  I did notice that the bullet were hitting the top of the target even though I was aiming at the center.  I was OK with that as the rifle was sight in with 100 grains of T7 and lead conical.

After shooting the first four, I was really OK with the velocities, but when I walked out to the target the disappoint level went very high.  At 50 yards the four shot group was approximately 3-4" - terrible but what was even worse was that fact that 3 of the 4 shots tumbled through the target.  Really made a mess of the plywood backer board - but it was painfully obvious that the bullets tumbled.

I took 3 more shots with a reduced powder load and suffered the same results.  One of the 3 final shots was so tight getting through the crown - I did have to use a short starter to get it in, yet after the first third of the barrel it went down with a two finger push.  This could be the one bullet that did not tumble in the group.

In my mind at that time -  I was really disappointed with the outing and more importantly the barrel.  I even hesitated writing this post...  I will also say when I got home and cleaned the bore I really tried to feel the difference in the bore size. Yet with a patch and cleaning jag going down the bore I really could not feel any difference.  It truly felt the same size all the way down.  At that point I decided to push a .458 sabot and projectile through and out the breech.  I pushed 3 different bullets and sabots through and once again could not feel a thing, not felt difference at all.  Next I got a box of Bull Shops and pushed three of those full bore lead conicals through.  The loaded snugly in the crown, no short starter needed, and pushed through what I would call normally.  It did get some what easier the last 2/3rds of the barrel but certainly enough to hold the bullet on the powder.

So my conclusion... I believe when I was shooting the knurled .500x350's the bullet slid several inches up the barrel on ignition - never starting to rotate.  Some rotation occurred in the last 1/3rd of the barrel but certainly not enough to stabilize the bullet.  Also since this is a solid brass bullet the ignition could not cause the bullet to obturate to the bore - so it was slip city.

With the Bull Shops, all of this is a moot point since the ignition does cause the bullet to obturate and fill the bore - hence they stabilize just fine.

Now I really wish the bore on my Mountaineer was SAAMI deminsions - but then again it is not a centerfire it is a ML and when shooting ML bullets -non of this matters - it shoots lights out...

 

[kerrdog]

I get sideways bullets through the target all the time.  It's usually after about 5 or 6 shots and the barrel is warm. And I noticed the exact same thing where it's harder to load at the muzzle and get's easier as I go. 

[salmon]

Hello, Don't know if you will remember me but a couple of years ago we talked and I ended up buying a Knight Disc Extreme 50 cal. I also used the Speer Deep Curl 300 gr on a elk, worked good. Anyway I have trouble getting #11 caps on it. I know you made/modified a cap loader that you said worked good. Would like to try it. E-mail me at tcromie@gmail.com if you would. Thanks in advance...Tom

[Sabotloader]

Hello, Don't know if you will remember me but a couple of years ago we talked and I ended up buying a Knight Disc Extreme 50 cal. I also used the Speer Deep Curl 300 gr on a elk, worked good. Anyway I have trouble getting #11 caps on it. I know you made/modified a cap loader that you said worked good. Would like to try it. E-mail me at tcromie@gmail.com if you would. Thanks in advance...Tom

My first question to you would be. Which bolt is in the rifle?  Is it a Western Edition Bolt?

If it looks like the one on the bottom that is a Western



If it is like this one - that is the regular bolt.  Both bolts will work with #11 caps



The modification that I made was to a Musket Cap capper.  It needs to be rounded off on the nose to fit in the breech area more easily.





If you are using a #11 capper I would suggest to the Traditions #11 capper.



http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/212097/traditions-straight-line-capper-holds-15-11-percussion-caps-brass

My next question are you getting the cap on the nipple post but it falls off?

[salmon]

Hello, Thanks for the info, My Knight Disc Extreme is legal for Washington State and I can use either the #11 or musket cap. So I am assuming I have the Western Edition. Tried musket caps by hand and no way to even get close to capping them. Went to #11 and have a plastic capper that is so so and an old metal capper that seems to drop   the cap sometimes while trying to get on the nipple.  Do you prefer #11 or musket or will either work? More flame etc or not?

[Sabotloader]

Hello, Thanks for the info, My Knight Disc Extreme is legal for Washington State and I can use either the #11 or musket cap. So I am assuming I have the Western Edition. Tried musket caps by hand and no way to even get close to capping them. Went to #11 and have a plastic capper that is so so and an old metal capper that seems to drop   the cap sometimes while trying to get on the nipple.

For myself I have found the plastic are to bulky so I stay with the brass cappers.  The old metal capper that you have probably just needs the retaining spring tightened so the it pushes the cap tighter again the back wall of the capper.  Over time the spring always stretches and gets loose.  I just use a pair of needle nose pliers to bend the spring tighter.

  Do you prefer #11 or musket or will either work? More flame etc or not?

I certainly prefer the #11 MAG cap to a Musket cap. It can be installed tighter and made almost water proof if it fits the nipple correctly.  A regular #11 cap is not as hot as a Musket cap, but the Mag caps are and the RWS Dynamit Nobel 105+ caps are even a bit hotter than the American Mag caps.

This thread much give you some additional information.. not really the one I was looking for but it should work

 http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,120040.msg1615172.html#msg1615172

[salmon]

Thank you again for your info, very good. Just how do you tighten the spring for my metal capper? Also which metal capper do you use for #11? Thanks again...Tom

[Heredoggydoggy]

I get sideways bullets through the target all the time.  It's usually after about 5 or 6 shots and the barrel is warm. And I noticed the exact same thing where it's harder to load at the muzzle and get's easier as I go.

Sometimes the twist rate of the barrel will cause bullets to hit sideways.  A fast twist is better for stabilizing heavy bullets, but will not stabilize a light bullet.  Try other bullets until you find one your gun likes.  After the barrel warms up, you might have to change the powder charge, too.

[Sabotloader]

Thank you again for your info, very good. Just how do you tighten the spring for my metal capper? Also which metal capper do you use for #11? Thanks again...Tom

This is the #11 capper I use...

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/212097/traditions-straight-line-capper-holds-15-11-percussion-caps-brass

Sportsman Warehouse usually carries them also..



Look at the top of this capper on the left side.  See the two small screws holding the spring steel part in place.  Remove the two screws and bent the left tip of the spring down towards the bottom rail of the capper.  Replace the spring steel and try a cap to see if it holds it snuggly against the bottom rail of the capper.

Often I do not even remove the spring just take a pair of needle nose pliers and grab the end of the spring where the cap rests and twist the spring downward.

Hope this makes sense.

mike

[salmon]

Thank you Mike!!

[Sabotloader]

Thank you Mike!!

Ubetcha - hope it helps

[ML_Hunter]

Sabotloader,

I was thinking of purchasing the Knight Ultra-Lite with western kit. I was wondering if you would recommend this rifle? I typically shoot the Barns TMZ with about 120 grs of T7. Of course I would have to find what shoots best out of a new rifle. Any feed back you have on the Knight Ultra Lite would be helpful.

Thanks!

[oneshot12]

ML hunter
 i would say have a long chat with sabot loader  he has a lot of info on the knights and can give some good advice on load for the gun as well   hes been helping me with getting better with the Remington  inline i been shooting .      really  great guy so Pick his brain 

[Sabotloader]

Sabotloader,

I was thinking of purchasing the Knight Ultra-Lite with western kit. I was wondering if you would recommend this rifle? I typically shoot the Barns TMZ with about 120 grs of T7. Of course I would have to find what shoots best out of a new rifle. Any feed back you have on the Knight Ultra Lite would be helpful.

Thanks!

This is just my personal opinion... I have a Ulite and it is the best rifle I own for the type of hunting I do in Idaho.  Know going that it is a light rifle with a shorter barrel (24").

My typical load is 110 grain T7-3f and #11 Mag cap or a RWS Dynamit Noble 1075+ cap.  I prefer to use the 1075 for hunting because it is so expensive. I shoot CCI #11 Mag caps for practice.  For me 120 grains often blows the cap to bits.  Everything shoots fine but you do not find much left of the cap.

Just about any projectile you choose to shoot seems to shoot very well from the ULite.

Might look at this...

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,120357.msg1587606.html#msg1587606

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,121220.msg1599212.html#msg1599212

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,121376.msg1601949.html#msg1601949

Hope some of this helps... mike

[ML_Hunter]

Thanks Sabotloader, Tons of info there. I called Sportsman in Salem OR and they have one of both the green and tan stocked rifles priced at $750. I will have to go in and take a look at them and decide if I indeed want to make the purchase. Its either that, and AR, or a 1911. But the muzzy would make the most since and get the best use out of my dollars.

[kerrdog]

Hmmm……  a people killin weapon that will most likely never get used except for targets (unless you're a cop, mercenary, coyote hunter, etc…..) 

Or the ultimate elk killing muzzleloader that will get you away from the modern rifle crowds and put meat in the freezer?  But you knew that already.

You'll probably spend a lot less on ammo with the muzzleloader.  And they are just plain fun.

[Sabotloader]

Thanks Sabotloader, Tons of info there. I called Sportsman in Salem OR and they have one of both the green and tan stocked rifles priced at $750. I will have to go in and take a look at them and decide if I indeed want to make the purchase. Its either that, and AR, or a 1911. But the muzzy would make the most since and get the best use out of my dollars.

You might also check Bob's Sporting Goods in Longview, WA for price.

[ML_Hunter]

Bob's had it for $700. Saying I live in Salem and don't have to pay sales tax here, its not so much worth the money in gas to drive to longview lol. Now if I had my OR drivers license and could get it without sales tax at bob's, I would be heading that way!

[Sabotloader]

Bob's had it for $700. Saying I live in Salem and don't have to pay sales tax here, its not so much worth the money in gas to drive to longview lol. Now if I had my OR drivers license and could get it without sales tax at bob's, I would be heading that way!

Yup! understand that one! really doesn't matter you are getting a really good rifle for a life time of hunting.

[Damnimissed]

For anyone who doesn't want to drive south to Bob's, Sunbirds in Chehalis also carries them for $699. I got mine form there in December, and they still had one left. Not sure if its still there though.

[Sabotloader]

For anyone who doesn't want to drive south to Bob's, Sunbirds in Chehalis also carries them for $699. I got mine form there in December, and they still had one left. Not sure if its still there though.

That is really good to know!

[oneshot12]

  very nice to know for sure  have to stop in down that way next time