The end of Wild Turkeys in Washington

[PA BEN]

How many turkeys is enough? I see more turkeys than grouse and the bag limits are a lot bigger on grouse. I see more moose than deer and elk in some areas where there should be more deer and elk. We have a good hunt able population of turkeys now, just because we don't see the 100's in one group doesn't mean we don't have a good hunt able population right now. Back in the day when there weren't so many hens the toms were a lot ez'er to call in. I think most hunters think that because they aren't calling in or hearing as many gobbles as they use too is because they are not there, I do know for a fact as one of the first turkey hunters in the Chewelah area, I saw first hand that as the numbers went up the hunting got harder. We went from not seeing turkeys at all to seeing 100's in a matter of 5 years. I don't know how they got here, but the population grew so fast with out any hunters hunting them. The guy who started me turkey hunting down on lake Roosevelt wouldn't hunt w/me around here for turkeys. Until I took him out on a scouting trip before season started and showed him first hand what we had right in our back yard. The number of turkey hunters has gone nuts and the toms are very henned up now.

[turkeydancer]

When I first started turkey hunting, I would see at least 300 birds/day and have seen a flock of approx 600 and a flock of approx 300 birds on two separate farms (now I see under 50 per day and the two farms hold under 100 and under 50.   Now some of that can be attributed to a few bad winters, but I feel the liberal seasons are also causing this effect. Having worked on the NWTF State Board of Directors with Tom Tamer, I have seen first hand that Mick Cope does not want to deal with landowner complaints at all.  He would present his proposals to the BOD about liberal seasons, but would not listen to our comments and suggestions .... he simply would ignore them and do whatever he intended to do in the first place (it was a waste of our time as well as his). I enjoyed the volunteers and friends I made while on the BOD and as a local chapter president, but not the absurd politics of the organization (one ridiculous example of that was when you would raise then of thousands of dollars for them, but had trouble convincing them you needed $1000 to do a youth event that would touch 1000 to 1500 kids).  I became thouroughly convinced that the WDFW and the Not Worth The Frustration (NWTF) organization were only concerned about money and not so much about the resource.   While I am still very sucessful in the spring, I am wondering how long that will be the case as I see the turkey numbers decreasing the way it has ... and even though your particular area is not currently being effected at present, as the resource dwindles and the number of turkey hunters continues to increase it won't be long before they move to your areas in search of the resource.
 
While I don't advocate elimination of the fall seasons, I do advocate the targeting of the specific problem areas versus the current "shotgun" approach the WDFW has taken.  I still hunt public lands (although I have several private farms I can and do hunt) ... this year there was very little sign in areas I have harvested several birds.  This obviously does not help the farmers that do have a problem with "excess" birds.  WDFW needs to target those areas of concern and not the entire populations everywhere.

[Tom Tamer]

Dale has it right, offer permits to the problem area, manage them just like deer or elk, if they have an issue they up the permits, a decline they pull them back. I drew the Teanaway fall tag a few years back, only reason was my daughter put in for it so I figured I would to hunt with her. well I drew but she didn't. I got a call from Rich Mann at the WDFW Enforcement, knew a guy that had problems and I set up a hunt. His neighbor was feeding the birds and they ate on one place and pooped on the next. I took out a hen. But I did not want to hunt the public areas if I can help it. Again we need to permit just problem areas and not so much the general tag.

[turkeydancer]

    Bingo ... we have a winner !!! 

 But wait a minute ... that would mean Mick and WDFW would have to really manage the resource ... 

[Dave Workman]

]
Awesome man, it was meant to be insulting. I am a man of facts. I like to hear why or see proof. Hopefully you didn't take that as an insult, I am married to a biologist so I am on your side . My biggest concern these days is when hunting an animal that isn't a native species becomes more important than one that is. It doesn't matter if the animal is big or little, they all deserve a fair shake when it comes to their native habitat. I am by no means a hippy, and you can ask quite a few members who know me, but I do believe in conservation.

I believe you.  And Wacenturion's response left me in stitches.  (And how the hell else was he supposed to take it?)

Fact is, you can't hunt squirrels here. And trotting them out as a reason to talk curtailment of the turkey hunting opportunity is typical of the Washington Department of NO Fish and WATCHABLE Wildlife and the goobers who get all antsy in their spandex when hunting season rolls around.

Wacenturion is the guy who made the turkey hunting program here. He's the real deal.

"Conservation" is a term now too-often used by preservationists who want to limit opportunities, and would rather fly a desk and write studies than get out there and make sure we have 10,000 more elk, 50,000 more deer and maybe tens of thousands more turkeys, grouse, chukar, huns, pheasants, mountain goats, sheep and other huntable game species.

Not to mention a million steelhead and salmon and ten times ten times ten as many trout in the lakes and streams.

People who want to preserve something should buy an art museum.   

[Tom Tamer]

]
Awesome man, it was meant to be insulting. I am a man of facts. I like to hear why or see proof. Hopefully you didn't take that as an insult, I am married to a biologist so I am on your side . My biggest concern these days is when hunting an animal that isn't a native species becomes more important than one that is. It doesn't matter if the animal is big or little, they all deserve a fair shake when it comes to their native habitat. I am by no means a hippy, and you can ask quite a few members who know me, but I do believe in conservation.

I believe you.  And Wacenturion's response left me in stitches.  (And how the hell else was he supposed to take it?)

Fact is, you can't hunt squirrels here. And trotting them out as a reason to talk curtailment of the turkey hunting opportunity is typical of the Washington Department of NO Fish and WATCHABLE Wildlife and the goobers who get all antsy in their spandex when hunting season rolls around.

Wacenturion is the guy who made the turkey hunting program here. He's the real deal.

"Conservation" is a term now too-often used by preservationists who want to limit opportunities, and would rather fly a desk and write studies than get out there and make sure we have 10,000 more elk, 50,000 more deer and maybe tens of thousands more turkeys, grouse, chukar, huns, pheasants, mountain goats, sheep and other huntable game species.

Not to mention a million steelhead and salmon and ten times ten times ten as many trout in the lakes and streams.

People who want to preserve something should buy an art museum.   

AMEN Brother!

[AspenBud]

Turkeys do not compete with squirrels period.  WDFW turkey haters just keep throwing that out there like spaghetti to see if it sticks to the wall and make it seem to the uniformed as though something terrible is happening.  That question has been answered many times years ago. 

Let's see now....if I recall squirrels live in trees.  What is a turkey getting food wise that a squirrel is not?  Good grief.

Oh really? Are you a biologist? State your facts, sources ?

I usually prefer to enjoy this forum just as a member, but since you have called me out so to speak, as a matter of fact, I am.  As a sidenote to that, I also managed the Washington Wild Turkey Program for 20 years from 1987 till 2002, when I retired.  That unfounded assertion and other equally stupid ones came up every time we wanted to expand opportunity statewide for turkeys during those years.  No scientific data whatsoever to back it up, but hey, lets throw it out there and assume someone will believe it.

I'll leave it at that............

 

What about native grouse?  Do turkeys compete with them?

That's one of those discussions that won't go away. However the Ruffed Grouse Society doesn't feel they have that much of an impact as their habitats don't really overlap. The problem is the RGS deals with Ruffed Grouse and not really any of the other grouse out there. They also aren't very active, compared to other parts of the country, in the Northwest so what may apply in say, Michigan, may not apply here. I don't know....   

[Tom Tamer]

Around here they do overlap and like I previously stated, I hear more grouse during turkey season than I do Turkeys sometimes.

[BOWHUNTER45]

I am sitting laughing to myself right now ...Like I said ..it is all about the landowners ..Most of the farmers and even  landowners other than the farmers hate them ...we all love them because we witness things they do not ...they hate them because they sheet in their yards or tear up hay bails .. I can not count how many farmers have let us hunt and tell us to kill them all ...even hens  Of course I would never do that but that's what they want ..Even if everyone decided not to participate in the fall hunt they would just come in and kill them themselves ...that's the problem ... I was just talking with a buddy tonight about the good old days ...well it makes me sick thinking about what is to come for our children when we are gone ..it is really getting to be a joke ...

[KFhunter]

I had a really small little struggling flock of turkeys on my place I been trying to get going - now they're all gone.


They didn't even come in this winter and take the seeds off the trees they used to hit every winter,  not sure what happened to them.   None of my neighbors would kill them that I know of.



I planted oats this spring and when I make hay of it I'll leave the corners and some strips for wildlife and of course the fence lines.  I would like a decent flock of turkeys...the dog keeps them out of the yard and off the deck,  not too hard to abate turkey problems lol - just get a bird dog 

I also would like to get some pheasant on the property.

[returnofsid]

I don't know if Turkeys compete with Grouse or not.  However, the last few weekends, in the NE corner, I've heard MANY grouse drumming, attempting to woo the opposite sex.  All the while, in the same areas, I've seen and heard dozens upon dozens of turkeys. 

[Wacenturion]

I don't know if Turkeys compete with Grouse or not.  However, the last few weekends, in the NE corner, I've heard MANY grouse drumming, attempting to woo the opposite sex.  All the while, in the same areas, I've seen and heard dozens upon dozens of turkeys.

To answer the question you have to frame it a certain way............

Have turkeys and grouse co-existed together historically in areas where they are native.....yes.

Any evidense of negative impacts by either species on the other.......probably not.

With all the wildlife reseach that has been done over the past 70 years, where is the evidence of negative competition with grouse or any other wildlife species for that matter?  Does anyone really believe with all the turkey introductions into non-native states over the past 30 years or so that that question as well as others wasn't addressed? Common sense would then tell you that there must not have been any credibility to that question or others related to turkey competition with native species.

The only reason the question even comes up is because it is thrown out there by those who don't want turkeys for one reason or the other.  Those folks will be asking the same questions over and over for years to come, as they don't like the answer.

[buckfvr]

I am sitting laughing to myself right now ...Like I said ..it is all about the landowners ..Most of the farmers and even  landowners other than the farmers hate them ... ..Even if everyone decided not to participate in the fall hunt they would just come in and kill them themselves ...that's the problem  ...

That much I know for sure...................and waste them.