Of Roosevelt Elk, Bacteria, Hooves and Herbicides

[idahohuntr]

Our request to WDFW that they require that non-lethal measures (i.e, human presence, removal of bone piles, fladry, etc.) be tried before employing lethal measures on a state-listed endangered species is getting the agency to adhere to the intent of the law.   These positions are all driven by biological/ecological rationale or legal reasons.  I am sure that many of you have caught inklings of these sorts of arguments from certain agency or university biologists who then politely listen to you telling them they are wrong--the only difference here is that I am not a public servant and therefore not required to nod my head when I hear some that does not agree with experience or the literature. 

No, Mr. Ferris, with all due respect your group is saying all non-lethal measures must be EXHAUSTED before lethal options are even considered.  This in effect will eliminate the states ability to lethally remove wolves.  Again, I bring this up to sportsmen on this forum and this thread because I think it is worth noting that your group has a very different agenda than most sportsman groups and you folks should not be viewed as the arbiters of truth whether it is on wolves or hoof rot.  You are working against elk hunters on wolf management in Washington, and the herbicide issue furthers another cause of yours, but will it actually help elk in SW WA? I don't think so, WDFW doesn't think so, but Cascadia Wildlands thinks so, so hunters should work shoulder to shoulder with you guys???  I'm not buying it.

Also, as a professional wildlife biologist I hope you can keep your laughter to a minimum when you describe gray wolves as "endangered".  I don't care if they are on any state or federal list, anybody with any reasonable sense of population viability, the migratory nature of wolves, and their ability to reproduce should know that gray wolves are not "endangered" in the Northern Rocky Mountains...including where they are found in Washington State.  

[bobferris]

Tbar.  Wolves are "coursing" predators that chase animals back and forth until a weakness exhibits itself.  They are different from sit and wait or pounce predators in this regard.  Elk can run at 45 mph and wolves top out at about 37 mph or so.  Therefore, adult elk under normal conditions can outrun wolves--unless there is deep snow, the elk are sick, old or young.  Certainly, elk with hoof rot cannot reach full speed and would be vulnerable.  Experience and also theory (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21269999) indicate that wolves might cleanse elk or deer populations of some diseases by killing elk that might not even be exhibiting outward or visible symptom. Wolves also likely have a similar cleansing effect on deleterious alleles (i.e., maladaptive gene forms) and improve the overall fitness of a population.  Would I prescribe wolves for this situation? My most honest answer is: I don't know.  My hesitancy stems from the absence of knowing what we are dealing with and the absence of an identified root cause.  I don't think this particular situation ends with removing the infected elk.  The wolves would be absolutely effective at removing the diseased elk and could be effective in those actions at removing the frequency of the infection.  But that may not solve the issue, it may just only make some feel better because we do not see suffering, limping individuals and it may not serve the long term interests of elk or wolves.  My sense is--in spite of some of the mistrust and acrimony--that we all want to get to the bottom of this and find a solid solution.  That is why I am here.

[kentrek]

Wolves would starve in sw Washington

Unfortunately, you're way off. We have the biggest elk herd in the state to feed them and plenty of pets. They've been heard in the Mt. St. Helens Momument and I saw one in the Winston unit three years ago this fall at about 20 yards.

I was joking to an extent but I can assure you that there are no resident wolves up at the mtn....trust me

[bobferris]

Idahohuntr,  You have mischaracterized our petition and request.  We talk about appropriate measures and documentation.  Not all non-lethal approaches are available or appropriate nor do all approaches work in all instances.  We know this and stipulate to it, but believe that prudent defensive measures need to be taken and they need to be documented--particularly by public land users. 

[Tbar]

With all due respect Mr Ferris, I (speaking only for myself) do feel you do sincerely care. However I fee like you, along with others are using this issue to promote a larger agenda.

[pianoman9701]

Wolves would starve in sw Washington

Unfortunately, you're way off. We have the biggest elk herd in the state to feed them and plenty of pets. They've been heard in the Mt. St. Helens Momument and I saw one in the Winston unit three years ago this fall at about 20 yards.

I was joking to an extent but I can assure you that there are no resident wolves up at the mtn....trust me

So, at 20 yards I saw a coyote or a dog? The guys I spoke with who heard them howling were mistaken? These are seasoned hunters who know the woods and have been around wolves in AK.

[bobferris]

TBar, Suspicion is a healthy instinct.  Hunters and field biologist both test new hunters and new biologists that come onto the scene.  They want to know whether or not the new guy or gal will show up on time, pull their weight and not make the hunting or field experience less than pleasurable.  We all do this and have had it done to us.  I would hope that at the same time that you are vetting me that you also vet those trying to discredit who I am or what I do.  I suspect that you will find that I am what I am.  And I have been too long in the public eye in too many venues to be anything else here is my background if you have any questions (http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobferris/). 

[idahohuntr]

Idahohuntr,  You have mischaracterized our petition and request.  We talk about appropriate measures and documentation.  Not all non-lethal approaches are available or appropriate nor do all approaches work in all instances.  We know this and stipulate to it, but believe that prudent defensive measures need to be taken and they need to be documented--particularly by public land users.

Perhaps since I have mischaracterized your petition you could describe all of the situations in which your organization would support lethal wolf removal?  IF we see declines in big game herds due to wolves (as determined by scientific reserarch) would you guys support lethal actions?

Please understand that I am not some radical who thinks that if 1 cow grazing on public land runs off because a wolf was nearby that we should go in and eliminate an entire pack.

[Tbar]

Mr Ferris I appreciate and respect the honest response.  I also respect your resume and credentials.  That said I think it's safe to say we lie at different ends of the spectrum on many issues.  I will continue to do what I can to help find a cause/cure for this ailment.  I will also focus my energies on those that I believe give the elk the best chance for resolution. 

[kentrek]

Wolves would starve in sw Washington

Unfortunately, you're way off. We have the biggest elk herd in the state to feed them and plenty of pets. They've been heard in the Mt. SDeet. Helens Momument and I saw one in the Winston unit three years ago this fall at about 20 yards.

I was joking to an extent but I can assure you that there are no resident wolves up at the mtn....trust me

So, at 20 yards I saw a coyote or a dog? The guys I spoke with who heard them howling were mistaken? These are seasoned hunters who know the woods and have been around wolves in AK.

I can also go on bfro's website an see the 1200 Bigfoot sightings up at the mtn too 

In all reality you dont know me nor do I know you so it wouldnt make much difference if I told ya I spent 60+ days up there in the last year an havent even cut a track...it doesnt add up...now it wouldnt surprise me a bit if there was wolves moving in but I sure cant find em...an ive been looking....alot lol I can go on for days but thats for another thread or a pm...

Hope im not coming off as rude, just respectfully disagree

[pianoman9701]

Nope, not rude. I just know what I saw. It was close.

[kentrek]

Nope, not rude. I just know what I saw. It was close.

Well maybe it was...but I know theres not a resident pulation up there...there might be the once in a blue moon stray that wonders down from mt rainier....but wolves howl...and they leave tracks..and they kill stuff...go to any area where there are wolves an youl find evidence but you wont find much up at the mtn

 

[bobferris]

Wolves are often seen in the field repeatedly prior to verification.  They are great wanderers and we are still speculating on where OR-7's mate came from.  While it is unlikely that she came down from Washington it is also unlikely that wolves would enter Kentucky or Missouri.  I learned long ago to be careful about dismissing the unlikely.

[pianoman9701]

Tbar.  Wolves are "coursing" predators that chase animals back and forth until a weakness exhibits itself.  They are different from sit and wait or pounce predators in this regard.  Elk can run at 45 mph and wolves top out at about 37 mph or so.  Therefore, adult elk under normal conditions can outrun wolves--unless there is deep snow, the elk are sick, old or young.  Certainly, elk with hoof rot cannot reach full speed and would be vulnerable.  Experience and also theory (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21269999) indicate that wolves might cleanse elk or deer populations of some diseases by killing elk that might not even be exhibiting outward or visible symptom. Wolves also likely have a similar cleansing effect on deleterious alleles (i.e., maladaptive gene forms) and improve the overall fitness of a population.  Would I prescribe wolves for this situation? My most honest answer is: I don't know.  My hesitancy stems from the absence of knowing what we are dealing with and the absence of an identified root cause.  I don't think this particular situation ends with removing the infected elk.  The wolves would be absolutely effective at removing the diseased elk and could be effective in those actions at removing the frequency of the infection.  But that may not solve the issue, it may just only make some feel better because we do not see suffering, limping individuals and it may not serve the long term interests of elk or wolves.  My sense is--in spite of some of the mistrust and acrimony--that we all want to get to the bottom of this and find a solid solution.  That is why I am here.

Look Bob, I'm glad you're in this to find out what's killing and disabling our elk and I mean that respectfully. However, there's a bunch of pro-wolf BS in here that just doesn't cut the mustard. I'm sorry this discussion took this route but if we're to take the WDFW to task for their shortcomings on elk hoof disease, we need to leave the BS on the doorstep.

Wolves don't just go after the old, sick, and weak. That's crap and you know it. We know they take down healthy cows, calves, and mature bulls. The only thing the mature bulls are weak from is mating. And, they may run a few miles slower than the fastest elk but that's a false argument, too because they have many times more stamina and patience. And, they have the ability to coordinate their attack as a group to run elk in circle and ambush them. You know this is true. Are they opportunists and will they kill slower elk or sick elk? Sure they will, but they will take healthy elk all day long and they eat a lot of them. Focusing on figuring out the causes and hopefully, the cure(s) for elk hoof disease is a good thing. Using it as a vehicle to justify more wolves in more places isn't going to fly with me or many others on this forum. Man is the apex predator here. With proper wildlife management, we can keep the elk herds healthy. We don't need wolves in every corner of the state to have healthy elk. If you're peddling that potion, we're not buying.

[grundy53]

Tbar.  Wolves are "coursing" predators that chase animals back and forth until a weakness exhibits itself.  They are different from sit and wait or pounce predators in this regard.  Elk can run at 45 mph and wolves top out at about 37 mph or so.  Therefore, adult elk under normal conditions can outrun wolves--unless there is deep snow, the elk are sick, old or young.  Certainly, elk with hoof rot cannot reach full speed and would be vulnerable.  Experience and also theory (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21269999) indicate that wolves might cleanse elk or deer populations of some diseases by killing elk that might not even be exhibiting outward or visible symptom. Wolves also likely have a similar cleansing effect on deleterious alleles (i.e., maladaptive gene forms) and improve the overall fitness of a population.  Would I prescribe wolves for this situation? My most honest answer is: I don't know.  My hesitancy stems from the absence of knowing what we are dealing with and the absence of an identified root cause.  I don't think this particular situation ends with removing the infected elk.  The wolves would be absolutely effective at removing the diseased elk and could be effective in those actions at removing the frequency of the infection.  But that may not solve the issue, it may just only make some feel better because we do not see suffering, limping individuals and it may not serve the long term interests of elk or wolves.  My sense is--in spite of some of the mistrust and acrimony--that we all want to get to the bottom of this and find a solid solution.  That is why I am here.

Look Bob, I'm glad you're in this to find out what's killing and disabling our elk and I mean that respectfully. However, there's a bunch of pro-wolf BS in here that just doesn't cut the mustard. I'm sorry this discussion took this route but if we're to take the WDFW to task for their shortcomings on elk hoof disease, we need to leave the BS on the doorstep.

Wolves don't just go after the old, sick, and weak. That's crap and you know it. We know they take down healthy cows, calves, and mature bulls. The only thing the mature bulls are weak from is mating. And, they may run a few miles slower than the fastest elk but that's a false argument, too because they have many times more stamina and patience. And, they have the ability to coordinate their attack as a group to run elk in circle and ambush them. You know this is true. Are they opportunists and will they kill slower elk or sick elk? Sure they will, but they will take healthy elk all day long and they eat a lot of them. Focusing on figuring out the causes and hopefully, the cure(s) for elk hoof disease is a good thing. Using it as a vehicle to justify more wolves in more places isn't going to fly with me or many others on this forum. Man is the apex predator here. With proper wildlife management, we can keep the elk herds healthy. We don't need wolves in every corner of the state to have healthy elk. If you're peddling that potion, we're not buying.

    AMEN!