Of Roosevelt Elk, Bacteria, Hooves and Herbicides

[bobferris]

Idahohuntr: I think that your medical analogy is a good one, but needs to be carried out farther.  Good doctors during their diagnostic processes work hard to affirmatively rule out possibilities through direct testing.  They are also are unlikely to include tobacco companies and  asbestos manufacturers directly in their diagnostic process.   The WDFW has skipped steps in the former and relied too heavily on vested parties in the latter. 

[Basket Rack]

 Have you compared the game populations in forests that are left unmanaged (many usfs examples) to game populations on big companies tree farms?

 

[bobferris]

In general, studies indicate that biodiversity drops in managed forests versus natural ones.  This reinforces original suppositions by Aldo Leopold when he visited the highly managed forests of Europe and compared them to their wild counterparts in North America early in the last century (see http://www.montana.edu/hansen/documents/downloadables/hansenetal1991.pdf)

“Even in the absence of forage, deer and elk frequently utilize commercial tree plantations and browse planted seedlings and saplings. Intense and prolonged browsing by deer and elk may impact economic viability of commercial tree plantations by suppressing growth and reducing wood quality.”

In terms of game populations--specifically deer and elk--in managed forests versus natural, there is not a whole lot of information.  Some of that is due to restricted access and some to funding.  Our friends at NCASI and University of Alberta have conducted limited research in this arena, but I am dubious (see pages 9-10 in http://oregonforests.org/sites/default/files/publications/pdf/OFRI%20managed%20forests%20elk%20deer_for_web.pdf).  Their very conditioned “apples and oranges” analysis is hard to understand and seems to contradict their photo caption on page 9 (see above quote) which basically says that deer and elk frequent clearcuts even though there is not much for them to eat other than their herbicide seedlings which at least one study has shown may not be as palatable  to blacktails (see bottom of page 30 http://www.ncasi.org/Downloads/Download.ashx?id=4184. 

It is hard to imagine a scenario, however, where managed forests—which are managed to reduce vegetative competition and tree damage due to herbivory (see http://www.aphis.usda.gov/wildlife_damage/nwrc/publications/13pubs/taylor131.pdf—provide higher value than forests left to their own devices and where elk and deer have co-evolved to the natural disturbances and plant succession regimes of those forests.

[bbarnes]

Keep it coming Bob this is great information maybe you could be on the TAG and hoof rot committees.I find it hard to argue with FACTS of the matter and thanks for POSTING UP FACTS.

[Tbar]

Bob Ferris would you like to see Wolf reintroduction into Western Washington?  A simple yes/no answer will suffice.

[snowpack]

I think the reference to unmanaged forests was more about previously managed/now abandoned forests.  USFS used to be managed for timber and although it used monoculture in many of the regen stands of timber making it less biodiverse in the tree plots, it was still a bit more age diverse in even if fragmented.  The animals were able to move through stands of timber ranging from 0 yrs to 50 yrs managed (or more) in addition to adjacent old growth.  Now, with less (or no) management on USFS lands, the earliest stands in appreciable size one can hope to find are 20 years old.  So the timber plots of 0 yrs (cut), 1 yr (replant), 2 yr,......first thinning....etc aren't happening and are even less beneficial to the animals.

[bbarnes]

Keep it coming Bob this is great information maybe you could be on the TAG and hoof rot committees.I find it hard to argue with FACTS of the matter and thanks for POSTING UP FACTS.

[idahohuntr]

Bob Ferris would you like to see Wolf reintroduction into Western Washington?  A simple yes/no answer will suffice.

Perhaps folks should go over to the wolf thread and read BoB Ferris (Executive Director of Cascadia Wildlands) news release from Cascadia Wildlands where they are petitioning to basically eliminate lethal removal of wolves in Washington State even for livestock depredation...and then maybe those hunters should ask themselves if Mr. Ferris is really interested in protecting elk or whether he is more interested in advancing an environmental agenda that includes limiting various land management activities like logging, herbicide use, and also ask if his vision of wolf advocacy fits with what hunters think is best for managing hoof rot.

I bring this up because while I believe there is merit in reducing herbicide use in general, I think hunters are being played as pawns in a larger chess game by environmental groups with far more radical agendas.  Perhaps I am wrong though, but I am more interested to hear Mr. Ferris' take on limiting WDFW's ability to use lethal removal for wolves.  Mr. Ferris, if we see reductions in elk and deer populations in SW Washington or other areas of washington would you support lethal removal of wolves?

[snowpack]

Is it the same Bob Ferris that is trying to shut down gold prospecting in Washington?

[Tbar]

Is it the same Bob Ferris that is trying to shut down gold prospecting in Washington?

Yes

[Bob33]

Bob Ferris would you like to see Wolf reintroduction into Western Washington?  A simple yes/no answer will suffice.

Perhaps folks should go over to the wolf thread and read BoB Ferris (Executive Director of Cascadia Wildlands) news release from Cascadia Wildlands where they are petitioning to basically eliminate lethal removal of wolves in Washington State even for livestock depredation...and then maybe those hunters should ask themselves if Mr. Ferris is really interested in protecting elk or whether he is more interested in advancing an environmental agenda that includes limiting various land management activities like logging, herbicide use, and also ask if his vision of wolf advocacy fits with what hunters think is best for managing hoof rot.

I bring this up because while I believe there is merit in reducing herbicide use in general, I think hunters are being played as pawns in a larger chess game by environmental groups with far more radical agendas.  Perhaps I am wrong though, but I am more interested to hear Mr. Ferris' take on limiting WDFW's ability to use lethal removal for wolves.  Mr. Ferris, if we see reductions in elk and deer populations in SW Washington or other areas of washington would you support lethal removal of wolves?

http://www.cascwild.org/press-release-petition-filed-to-require-nonlethal-steps-to-control-washington-wolves/

“The groups also argue that rules are needed to ensure adherence to Washington’s wolf plan, which was crafted with input from a 17-member stakeholder group, more than 65,000 written comments from the public, and a peer review by 43 scientists and wolf managers. Despite the plan’s formal adoption by the Fish and Wildlife Commission in 2011 as official state policy, Department officials and the Commission have publicly stated they view the plan as merely advisory and key provisions of the plan were ignored when the Wedge Pack was killed. The Commission also adopted a rule last summer that allows wolves to be killed under circumstances the wolf plan does not permit, and the Department has proposed additional changes and definitions of terms to allow even more wolf killing.

The return of wolves is a boon for Washington,” said Mike Petersen, executive director for The Lands Council. “Not only is it good for the forest and mountains of Washington that need the balance provided by top predators, but a fledgling tourist industry is developing around the viewing of this majestic creature.”

[jbeaumont21]

tag

[Tbar]

This thread is a sad example of how people pushing an agenda can divide sportsman that truly care about the resource.

[bobferris]

T-Bar. I started my academic and professional career as a deer biologist and have the hoof prints from diving into Clover traps to prove it .  Following my undergraduate and graduate pursuits, I have further developed my experience and knowledge of predator-prey relationships including those between wolves and elk.  My professional opinion is that ecosystems are healthiest when they are able to support all ecological functions including a full spectrum of predation and less healthy when they do not.  Wolves and elk are both species that need wild places that are relatively free of people and roads.  Wolf recovery is happening in Washington and the wolves are finding area where they fit and places where they do not.  My professional opinion is that we should let them move forward with recolonization.   I can provide mountains of research that supports my stance but that is for another forum or thread as this one is about herbicides and elk.

[Tbar]

A yes/no answer will suffice.