Of Roosevelt Elk, Bacteria, Hooves and Herbicides

[Tbar]

Ever been to Tillamook?

Yes I have, mix of dairy farms and industrial timberlands..... 

[t6]

..... and sick elk.  ODFW calls it Bacterial Hoof Deformities. 

[luvtohnt]

Can someone point me to some current work, preferably published, that makes the connection to herbicide? Also does anyone know what herbicide the timber companies use?

Thanks

[t6]

Bruce Barnes and Jon Gosch would be the ones to ask. 

[bobferris]

This has been an interesting thread to observe, but here are some thoughts.  First, I think that we can stipulate that elk are healthier when their habitat is in optimal shape.   Given habitat in managed forests—i.e., subjected to herbicide use, dense replanting and rotations under 200 years—are sub-optimal, we have an elk population that is challenged from the get go in part because of herbicide use. 

So the question should not be whether or not herbicides impact elk, because they do and the timber industry acknowledges that, it is a question of what additional herbicidal impacts exist.  I will say from the beginning that statements by Drs. Fairbrother, Tatum and Cook are problematic because they state affirmatively and unconditionally a position that they should acknowledge ignores considerable controversy and also the great unknown associated with the long term implications of the use of these complex chemicals.  Any statement that does not start out with or emphasize that there is controversy and gaps in knowledge should be seriously questioned. 

I think it is also instructive here to point out that there is a lot of confusion on this thread in terms of mechanisms and terms.  I think some think that we are talking about simple poisoning where elk eat foliage laced with herbicide and are sickened directly as a result and therefore necropsies or blood samples would reveal traces of the chemical.  It is really doubtful that the mechanism is that simple and straight-forward.  In other words, we are not looking for a smoking gun but rather a warm barrel. 

In terms of candidate mechanisms for what is driving some of the already stressed elk over the edge so they are exhibiting this range of symptoms, there are many.  Any search of Google Scholar using the terms herbicides, mammals and impacts will yield dozens of peer-reviewed papers that establish or speculate on potential pathways.   One likely pathway that fits the fact pattern is a compromised or partially compromised immune system.  And a potential “warm barrel” in this arena involves atrazine and the so-called NK or natural killer cells of the mammalian immune system (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_killer_cell ). 

There has been some research on the herbicide atrazine’s impact on the functional capacity of NK cells(http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0009279703000279, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17475299 and http://gradworks.umi.com/32/98/3298566.html). Now granted the role of NK cells in the defense against bacteria is just being established (http://iai.asm.org/content/81/2/460.full) but if subsequent research reinforces this role, then this is a scenario very much worth examining. 

The NK and atrazine research also indicates that there is a broad variation in terms of the impact of dosages and timing of exposure which are all consistent with infections in some but not all animals in the herd.  Moreover, this pathway is also consistent with multiple types of infections because we would be dealing with the animals’ vulnerability to any infection rather than the prevalence or virulence of any given pathogen.

I am an ecologist rather than a toxicologist or immuno-toxicologist, but it strikes me that while there is not enough evidence here to point to this as “the cause” this creates a sufficient crack in the wall of the “herbicides are not a problem” wall to dictate more open mindedness on  the part of WDFW.

[t6]

       Very well said.

[pianoman9701]

  Well put.

[Curly]

 

Glad you joined the forum, Bob and great post

[idahohuntr]

I am an ecologist rather than a toxicologist or immuno-toxicologist, but it strikes me that while there is not enough evidence here to point to this as “the cause” this creates a sufficient crack in the wall of the “herbicides are not a problem” wall to dictate more open mindedness on  the part of WDFW.

I don't believe WDFW has said "herbicides are not a problem" for wildlife...but rather they do not believe herbicide toxicity is the cause of hoof rot.  I believe WDFW is focused (correctly so) on the immediate/direct cause of hoof rot...i.e., what bacteria specifically is the cause and how does it infect?  Once they answer that, I think the questions regarding root causes can be more thoroughly evaluated.  And we may well be asking questions about all kinds of land management practices, including herbicide use, livestock practices, climate change effects, etc. etc.  And then some years down the road some of the same members preaching wdfw is incompetent about hoof rot will be on here griping about some new EPA/Dept. of Ecology/WDFW rule that restricts their land use/livestock production/hetbicide application etc. etc. that was enacted to reduce hoof rot disease   

[BrushChimp]

http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/facilities/safety/?Page=8469

Does this guy know anything? Maybe??

[Curly]

http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/facilities/safety/?Page=8469

Does this guy know anything? Maybe??

Well, you know a lot of guys will jump all over who funded the study:

Funders:

Am. Forest Resource Council, National Council of Air and Stream Improvement,
National Science and Engineering Council of Canada, OR Forest Industries Council,
University of Alberta,
WA Forest Protection Association,
WA State Pesticide Commission,
Weyerhaeuser Company ,
Wilbur-Ellis & Dow Chemical.

I don't have a problem with them funding the study.  They should be funding the study.  Hopefully the study has been peer reviewed and is determined to be thorough and well done.  I wonder what it says?

[BrushChimp]

Funding can mean anything, i.e. using Weyco's property and those chemical companies' chemicals.

[bobferris]

Idaho Hunter: Since there is great confusion over what bacterial agent is actually presenting itself here, my sense is that the more important question is why this many elk are susceptible to any infection.  In other words, I believe that it is more important and prudent to find and treat the root cause than search for a quick fix to a symptom that alludes and confuses you.  Why would you have a problem with that approach?

[idahohuntr]

Idaho Hunter: Since there is great confusion over what bacterial agent is actually presenting itself here, my sense is that the more important question is why this many elk are susceptible to any infection.  In other words, I believe that it is more important and prudent to find and treat the root cause than search for a quick fix to a symptom that alludes and confuses you.  Why would you have a problem with that approach?

Because in order to treat the root cause(s) you must know what is the proximate cause of hoof disease.  If I go to my doctor because I have a cough, I want him to identify the proximate cause (is it irritation of the lungs/throat, a bacterial infection, the flu etc.) with that identified it becomes much, much easier to correct the root cause...stop smoking, stop breathing asbestos, get a flut shot etc.  If I tell him I have a cough and he says take cough medicine and get a flu shot next year that will not solve the problem because I did not tell him I work in an Asbestos plant and smoke 3 packs of marlboros a day.  Some of you are prescribing the medicine, but we don't have the proximate factors identified completely. 

So I completely agree that the more important task is to ultimately address the root causes, but we will be unsuccessful in that approach if we do not understand and identify the proximate cause first.

[Tbar]

Another thing I would like to state (as a dissenter). I do not agree with all the herbicide application by big timber companies (would prefer prescribed burns but very unlikely). I see several calling for mortoriums on herbicides in the name of increasing carrying capacity. Have you compared the game populations in forests that are left unmanaged (many usfs examples) to game populations on big companies tree farms?