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Author Topic: Is the Meat Safe? - An Open Letter to WDFW Assistant Director Nate Pamplin  (Read 6586 times)

Offline jongosch

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This was sent last Thursday, July 10th.  So far I have received no reply whatsoever.


Nate,

I recently acquired a letter you sent to the Board of Clark County Commissioners, dated April 16, 2013.  In this letter you wrote the following:

"To address concerns regarding the safety of meat from elk with hoof disease, as with all wild animals, WDFW cannot guarantee the safety of game meat.  A general guideline is if the animal appeared and behaved normally before it was killed; the meat appears and smells normal; good hygiene and common sense practices are used during butchering, storage, and preparation; and the meat is thoroughly cooked before consuming it; then most likely the meat is safe to eat.  WDFW advises against harvesting or consuming the meat of an animal that appears sick."

Fast forward to June 25, 2014 when the following passages appeared in a Columbian article written by Allen Thomas:

“At this point, we don’t know whether we can contain this disease,’’ said Nate Pamplin, wildlife program director for the agency in Olympia. “But we do know that assessing its impacts and putting severely crippled animals out of their misery is the right thing to do.’’

"Department-qualified employees such as biologists and wildlife enforcement officers will do the shooting and the carcasses will be given to food banks"

Additionally, as of this date, July 9th, 2014, WDFW's Elk Hoof Disease web page states that, "If the meat looks and smells normal, and if common sense and good hygiene are practiced during the harvesting, processing and cooking, the meat is most likely safe to eat."

I'm sure I'm not the only one who is interested to know how your assessment has evolved on this issue from advising "against harvesting or consuming the meat of an animal that appears sick" to a plan to donate the carcasses of "severely crippled animals" to food banks.  What new information have you gleaned from this case in the past 16 months that leads you to believe this meat is any safer than it was in April of 2013?   

It seems very clear to many people following along that your department does not yet understand the root cause of this disease.  Just yesterday in fact, at a special Forest Practices Board meeting, WDFW veterinarian and epidemiologist Kristin Mansfield revealed that, “There probably needs to be another species of bacteria that comes in before the treponemes that allows them entry into the cells.”  So is this other species of bacteria safe for human consumption?  Which bacteria is that exactly?  And does that mean your department is finally aligning with the many members of your own Technical Advisory Group who believe these bacteria are secondary or even tertiary to larger environmental factors including our forest practices?

Here are a few of their comments:

“[Treponemes] are possibly playing a role, but they’re not the entirety,” said Jennifer Wilson, a research microbiologist with the USDA.

“I buy the fact that it’s acting like a novel introduced disease.  I’m just saying this treponema data does not support that,” said Tom Besser, a specialist in Veterinary Microbiology and Pathology at WSU.

“I also have a little bit of a concern because the treponema hypothesis still requires an initiating event… Until you figure out what that triggering event was you’re not going to be able to really understand the disease,” said Dr. Anne Fairbrother, an Ecotoxicologist with Exponent Engineering and Scientific Consulting.

“You’re mentioning lots of different bacteria.  That’s one piece of the puzzle… but there are other things that seem to be missing in the puzzle.  Big pieces.  The big pieces are the environmental factors and why this particular region and not other regions,” said Dale Moore, an expert in preventive veterinary medicine at WSU.

And don't forget this one:

Dr. Paul Kohrs, Acting State Veterinarian with the Department of Agriculture, stated that “something must be done different down here with forest practices” and added that “it needs to be explored.”

I know that you were not able to attend that meeting in Vancouver and I am happy to share the full recording if it helps inform your understanding of what your Technical Advisory Group said on June 3rd.

Also, have you or any of your colleagues had a chance to review the following study which was published in December 2011 by the National Center for Biotechnology Information?  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3481744/  Here is the conclusion of this study, and remember that atrazine is one of the most commonly sprayed chemicals in our forests and a well-known immunotoxin:

"It seems that the present study is the first one which reports atrazine residues in biological samples of cattle.  The statistically significant difference between atrazine concentration in the serum and urine samples of the study and control groups indicated that atrazine in the feed ingredients ingested by cattle could be transferred in to the biological samples and could be a potential hazard for human health."

If an elk were ingesting significant quantities of atrazine, which is likely for an animal residing on industrial timber lands, do you think it could also be a "potential hazard for human health?"  And considering the fact that many toxins are not only odorless but also tasteless, wouldn't advocating for a smell test of the meat be essentially worthless?  Do you believe it could be viewed by some as a reckless advisory?

In my opinion it seems wiser in the long run from a liability (not to mention a moral) standpoint to send a clear message to the public that since you do not know what is causing this disease, and since you have not done the tests to rule out contamination from toxic chemicals, this meat be deemed unfit for human consumption.  It certainly doesn't seem responsible to donate meat from severely crippled animals to food banks.  Nate, knowing what you know, would you honestly feed the meat from an infected elk to your own family?  Would you do it twice a week for a year?

There is also the issue of leptospira bacteria which have been detected in the kidneys of at least 4 of the recently sampled elk and which were shown by WDFW's own Dr. Louis Bender to be "widespread in the herd" of SW Washington.  I hope you are aware that leptospirosis is contagious to humans and contracted by as little as touching the skin or hide of an infected animal.  If left undiagnosed and untreated, which it often is, leptospirosis and its complications often prove fatal to humans.  At this moment there is not a single mention of the risk of harvesting an elk infected with leptospira bacteria in your game pamphlet despite the fact that Dr. Boone Mora, a Parasitology expert and former County Health Director, has brought it to your attention on multiple occasions over the past year and half.

Considering all of these factors, your advisory from April 16, 2013 strikes me as more appropriate:

WDFW advises against harvesting or consuming the meat of an animal that appears sick.  Will you commit to making that WDFW's official stance, as well as making the appropriate changes to your website, game pamphlet and future public statements on the issue?

Awaiting your reply,

Jon Gosch

Offline HntnFsh

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Very interesting. Anxious to see his reply!

Offline ICEMAN

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IMHO you should ask him a question more easily answered. Do you really expect a response?
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IMHO  :chuckle:  :chuckle:

Good on ya for not letting this issue die as they would simply let our elk herds die if we don't fight to get answers then come up with a solution!

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Mr. Gosch:

I’m writing in response to your July 9, 2014 email where you shared your concerns about the safety of consuming meat from elk afflicted with treponeme-associated bacterial hoof disease.

The concerns and questions you have raised with the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) fall into the four categories below, which I will respond to in the following order:

1.    Questions about our diagnosis of treponeme-associated bacterial hoof disease.

2.    Safety of consuming meat from “sick” vs. “severely crippled” elk.

3.    Concern that elk meat may be contaminated by the herbicide atrazine, thus posing a risk to humans who consume the meat.

4.    Concern that elk may be infected with Leptospira sp. bacteria, thus posing a risk to humans who handle elk or their carcasses.

Diagnosis of treponeme-associated bacterial hoof disease of elk

Biologists and veterinarians are professionally obligated to adhere to a scientifically acceptable process in the design of their research question(s) or diagnostic investigation, and in interpreting the results. This process includes a review of the existing scientific literature; development of the research question(s) or list of differential diagnoses; selection and use of appropriate methods and tests; sound interpretation of results; and submission of findings to the scientific community for peer review.

Peer review is a critical component of the scientific process, involving presentations at professional association conferences, publication in scientific journals, and dissemination of new information to colleagues and eventually to the public. WDFW’s veterinary staff will be presenting the findings of our elk hoof disease investigations at three upcoming animal disease conferences. Manuscripts describing elk hoof disease in SW Washington and evidence for treponemes being causal are currently in preparation by several of our collaborators. These will go through the peer review process and will be published in reputable scientific journals. Finally, information on treponeme-associated bacterial hoof disease in elk is being disseminated through appropriate channels, such as the July 3 edition of the Washington State Veterinary Medical Association online newsletter:  http://wsvma.org/2014/07/03/severe-treponeme-associated-bacterial-hoof-disease-in-southwest-washington-elk/

As you know, WDFW has relied on the expertise of our 16-member technical advisory group (TAG) to help guide our diagnostic investigation and to assess the results of that effort. Our TAG includes researchers and veterinarians with expertise in clinical veterinary medicine, epidemiology, pathology, microbiology, toxicology, public health, food animal production, and wildlife health.  A list of TAG members can be found here: http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/advisory/ehdtag/EHDTAG_MemberRoster.pdf.

Based on all evidence available to date, the TAG developed the following three consensus statements at its June 3, 2014 meeting:

·         Available evidence is most consistent with an infectious bacterial hoof disease.
·         The disease shares many features and most resembles treponeme-associated contagious ovine digital dermatitis (CODD).
·         Environmental factors, including wet conditions, are likely important in disease initiation and propagation

In your letter, you list several statements attributed to members of the TAG at this meeting. You indicate that these statements may refute the above consensus statements, or the diagnosis of treponeme-associated bacterial hoof disease. Without the context in which these statements were made, it is difficult to discern their meaning or significance. However, I am aware of the tendency of scientists – when in the same room together and probing the extent of current understanding of a particular issue – to do a lot of brainstorming, looking at a problem from a variety of angles, and thinking out loud. This casual process and mild debate can be viewed as an informal version of peer review, and also an important initial step in defining additional research questions and developing testable hypotheses.

When the statements you provided were shared with the TAG, one member said this:   “Scientists tend to try on and discard ideas, often out loud, which can get very confusing to the public.” Another said: “Unfortunately, given the public nature of the discussions, I don't know how you can avoid laypeople from over-interpreting one small portion of the discussion (or several small portions for that matter) and not even understanding other portions of the discussion.”   

In any case, the TAG reached consensus that the preponderance of evidence points to treponeme-associated bacterial hoof disease. That conclusion is consistent with field and laboratory evidence in affected elk, as well as what is reported in the scientific and veterinary literature.

You correctly note that this is a complex disease, probably involving species of bacteria in addition to treponemes – as is known to be the case with similar diseases in livestock:  bovine digital dermatitis (BDD) of cattle and CODD of sheep.  I encourage you to contact our agency veterinarian, Dr. Kristin Mansfield, who can provide you with more information on treponeme-associated bacterial hoof diseases, or direct you to the existing large body of scientific literature on this subject.

Safety of consuming meat from “sick” vs. “severely crippled” elk

In your letter, you suggest that WDFW is giving conflicting advice with respect to the safety of meat from “sick” animals vs. “severely crippled” animals. It is true that the definition of “sick” can be arbitrary and subjective, and may mean different things to different people. Still, we believe that most people – particularly hunters – are capable of recognizing an obviously sick animal. Obvious signs of “sickness” include animals exhibiting extreme lethargy and/or depression; extreme emaciation; lack of awareness or fear of humans or predators; disinterest in their surroundings; unwillingness or inability to stand; labored breathing or coughing; discharge from the eyes, nose, or mouth; or evidence of diarrhea. We would recommend against eating the meat of an animal exhibiting these clinical signs, regardless of the condition of its hooves.

Conversely, if a disease or other abnormality is localized to the hoof, there is no reason to believe that the meat of that animal is unsafe for human consumption as long as the animal appears otherwise healthy. Domestic cattle and sheep with similar treponeme-associated bacterial hoof diseases are routinely sent to slaughter for human consumption. In southwest Washington, several thousand elk – including those with treponeme-associated bacterial hoof disease – are harvested, and their meat consumed, every year. Yet, neither WDFW nor the Washington State Department of Health has received reports of any human disease associated with consumption of elk with treponeme-associated bacterial hoof disease. 

Herbicides

The diagnosis of treponeme-associated bacterial hoof disease is congruent with the existing body of scientific and veterinary knowledge, examination and laboratory testing of affected elk in SW Washington, and current expert opinion. In contrast, there is no scientific evidence to suggest that treponeme-associated bacterial hoof disease is caused by herbicides.

Additionally, you raised concerns that hunters are eating elk meat contaminated by herbicides, and you cited an Iranian journal article where the authors detected atrazine in the blood and urine of cattle that were fed corn-based silage. We know that atrazine is one of the most commonly used herbicides for growing corn, including in the United States, and that most livestock feed in this country is corn-based. Yet eating the meat and drinking the milk from domestic livestock is not believed to represent a threat to the health of Americans who consume these animal products. The mere fact that a substance can be detected in an animal’s system does not mean that it is having an effect on its health, or those that consume the animal.   

Leptospirosis

It has been known for several decades that wildlife in Washington and throughout the world can be infected with Leptospira sp. bacteria. During the course of WDFW’s hoof disease investigations, evidence of the presence of Leptospira sp. bacteria was found in individual elk with and without hoof disease, and in areas of the state with and without hoof disease (i.e., low titers indicating animals were not having active disease). These findings were not surprising.  According to Dr. Jennifer Wilson-Welder, research microbiologist and leptospirosis expert at U.S. Department of Agriculture National Animal Disease Center:  “Several strains of leptospirosis are endemic in wild and domestic animals throughout the world, including Washington.  In endemic hosts, such as deer, elk, cattle, rodents, raccoons, and other wildlife, the disease is limited to the kidney, urinary and reproductive tracts. Muscle and joint pain reported by humans and other susceptible animals, such as dogs or horses, with leptospirosis is due to severe systemic sepsis and a generalized fever response. Systemic sepsis is not a feature of the disease in endemic animal hosts, and has not been observed in any Washington elk examined to date. Leptospirosis does not affect the hooves of animals; and lameness has not been reported as a feature of clinical leptospirosis in farmed New Zealand red deer, a species closely related to North American elk. Proper diagnostic tests have been applied to samples collected from elk, and positive results were found in both non-hoof diseased animals/areas as well as the ones with hoof lesions. Lack of similarity of clinical signs and failure to find Leptospira titers isolated to only the hoof-diseased animals indicate to the veterinary and research team that leptospirosis is not a cause of the hoof-disease."

Additional information on wildlife diseases that hunters should be aware of can be found at this link: https://www.avma.org/public/Health/Pages/Disease-Precautions-for-Hunters.aspx ; and information on safe game meat handling and consumption can be found here: http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/meat_safety/

I hope that you find this information useful.

Nate
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Offline Curly

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I think that was a good response by Pamplin.
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I agree with Curly, that was a really solid response, and he took the time to answer each question instead of picking the easiest answered question and leaving the rest hanging.   I also appreciate the format he provided in answering the questions. 

It was also nice to see that he is on board with pretty much the same method I use to determine if meat is acceptable to eat.  It would be cost prohibitive for me to have scientific research done on each piece of wild and or domestic meat do to concerns of bacteria or similar that cannot be seen.  I feel that general overall health can be seen prior to shooting an animal, and the smell test and proper meat handling are important in mitigating the risk of catching something.  While not all people are comfortable doing this, I feel confident in my abilities to do so.  To be noted this is not only for animals with hoof disease, but all wild game animals and domestic animals that I dispatch in order to eat. 


Offline Knocker of rocks

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Why didn't the OP post the reply?  It was written to him.

Offline SnakeEyes

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Sounds like a lot of fluff to me. If you attended the meetings you will know they really do not know squat. They have not put the resources towards this issue necessary to really start coming to any conclusions. We the hunters need to keep pushing our legislators and WDFW to put more resources towards the Hoof Rot issue. It is sad it has taken so long to get to this point.
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Why didn't the OP post the reply?  It was written to him.

Does it matter? He's probably busy. He devotes a ton of time to researching this disease and is almost solely responsible for keeping the WDFW aware that someone's watching and paying attention.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman https://linktr.ee/johnlwallace https://valoaneducator.tv/johnwallace-2014743

Offline Knocker of rocks

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Why didn't the OP post the reply?  It was written to him.

Does it matter? He's probably busy. He devotes a ton of time to researching this disease and is almost solely responsible for keeping the WDFW aware that someone's watching and paying attention.

So he doesn't come off as a muck raker?

Online pianoman9701

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He's put together an incredible body of work researching this, Knocker, as have others like bbarnes and Krystal Davies. If all of us were as concerned about our wildlife as they, this problem would've been addressed a decade ago. I'm sure he'll be back to the thread.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman https://linktr.ee/johnlwallace https://valoaneducator.tv/johnwallace-2014743

Offline jongosch

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Why didn't the OP post the reply?  It was written to him.

Does it matter? He's probably busy. He devotes a ton of time to researching this disease and is almost solely responsible for keeping the WDFW aware that someone's watching and paying attention.

So he doesn't come off as a muck raker?

Thanks for posting Pamplin's response, Pman.  Been away from my computer.  And I'd be honored to be known as a muckraker.  This from wikipedia:

"The term muckraker refers to reform-minded journalists who wrote largely for all popular magazines and continued a tradition of investigative journalism reporting; muckrakers often worked to expose social ills and corporate and political corruption."

"Before World War I, the term "muckraker" was used to refer in a general sense to a writer who investigates and publishes truthful reports to perform an auditing or watchdog function. In contemporary use, the term describes either a journalist who writes in the adversarial or alternative tradition, or a non-journalist whose purpose in publication is to advocate reform and change. Investigative journalists view the muckrakers as early influences and a continuation of watchdog journalism."


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Please accept my apologies

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I believe Nate's letter rebutted nearly all of the op's allegations in a very straightforward manner.  I particularly like how the TAG explained how lay people would misinterpret and take small quotes out of context.  I have grown tired of folks on here taking two sentences and trying to use that to make some definitive point.  Once again, thank you Mr. Pamplin and Dr. Mansfield for all of your hard work.  While your critics continue to desperately seek attention, I appreciate your dedication to our wildlife resources.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." - TR

 


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