Save Our Elk - Examining antler deformities, lungworms, copper deficiencies, etc

[jongosch]

Fortunately for sportsmen, whether they know it or not, WDFW relies on their own experts and an independent team of experts to guide them in solving and managing this complex problem.  Its great there is civic engagement by resort park owners, sporting goods stores, and journalism majors...it really is...but thank goodness they are not in charge of the scientific evaluations or management of our wildlife.

I did appreciate how the OP's link took me straight to a website where there was a huge banner advertising where I could by the OP's book online    Sales must be a little slow this month so time to drum up activity to the website    But more interesting to me, I found it somewhat amusing (or maybe sad) that the author gives more credence to the owner of "Bobs sporting goods" than he does independent veterinary and wildlife experts in solving a complex wildlife disease issue.

I continue to be disappointed at how people are more interested in trashing these independent experts and public servants than they are in actually solving the hoof disease issues.  At some point I would hope the grand standing and self promotion could stop so that we can focus solely on solving the real problem and not just look for ways to grab headlines and mislead the public, ultimately delaying real solutions for protecting and managing our wildlife resources. 

It must be very dissatisfying to be on the wrong side of this issue.   Funny thing is, you didn't dispute a single thing in the article.  You know someone's off-base when they can only resort to childish personal attacks.

By the way, Bruce Barnes said he had a very interesting phone conversation with you a few weeks back.  What did you guys talk about?

[t6]

WDFW has had 20 years to figure this out..... I guess we should keep relying on their expertise.    It might only be another 15 or 20 years before they get something done.   

Buy the book, you should have something to do other than tout the wonderful job WDFW has done.   

[pianoman9701]

WDFW has had 20 years to figure this out..... I guess we should keep relying on their expertise.    It might only be another 15 or 20 years before they get something done.   

Buy the book, you should have something to do other than tout the wonderful job WDFW has done.   

Well, their panel of experts are top notch. That poster told you so! 

[JimmyHoffa]

WDFW has had 20 years to figure this out..... I guess we should keep relying on their expertise.    It might only be another 15 or 20 years before they get something done.   

Buy the book, you should have something to do other than tout the wonderful job WDFW has done.   

Well, their panel of experts are top notch. That poster told you so! 

Some of the best the chemical corporations could provide!

[idahohuntr]

How the mods on here will censor me for pointing out that you unabashedly toe the WDFW company line for your personal reasons yet never censor you for slamming and discrediting another poster is beyond me.

Its very simple Piano, I don't call people names.  It is fine to disagree or point out where folks are wrong as I do in this thread.  There is no name calling or personal attacks.  I disagree with the OP and his motives and tactics.  Personally, I'm sure he is a talented author and a wonderful human being.

It must be very dissatisfying to be on the wrong side of this issue.   Funny thing is, you didn't dispute a single thing in the article.  You know someone's off-base when they can only resort to childish personal attacks.

By the way, Bruce Barnes said he had a very interesting phone conversation with you a few weeks back.  What did you guys talk about?

I have numerous times pointed out where you are just dead wrong...in this instance I was merely pointing out my general observation that you give more credence to bobs sporting goods than a whole panel of independent experts...some may agree with you that a retail store owner has more knowledge of wildlife disease than veterinarians and biologists in wa...I don't.  I see no need to rehash all of the things you and I disagree on.  Herbicides are not the direct cause of this disease, it is a bacterial infection, it is limited to the hooves and does not effect the meat, however I would not rule out some larger habitat issue (partially caused by herbicide application?) as potentially contributing to the disease.

I have never spoken with Mr. Barnes...he doesn't know me so there is no way he could have possibly called me.  I'm not sure what you are even remotely suggesting with that absurd statement.  However, I sincerely hope that he is recovering from the motorcycle accident as quickly as possible.

[jongosch]

How the mods on here will censor me for pointing out that you unabashedly toe the WDFW company line for your personal reasons yet never censor you for slamming and discrediting another poster is beyond me.

Its very simple Piano, I don't call people names.  It is fine to disagree or point out where folks are wrong as I do in this thread.  There is no name calling or personal attacks.  I disagree with the OP and his motives and tactics.  Personally, I'm sure he is a talented author and a wonderful human being.

It must be very dissatisfying to be on the wrong side of this issue.   Funny thing is, you didn't dispute a single thing in the article.  You know someone's off-base when they can only resort to childish personal attacks.

By the way, Bruce Barnes said he had a very interesting phone conversation with you a few weeks back.  What did you guys talk about?

I have numerous times pointed out where you are just dead wrong...in this instance I was merely pointing out my general observation that you give more credence to bobs sporting goods than a whole panel of independent experts...some may agree with you that a retail store owner has more knowledge of wildlife disease than veterinarians and biologists in wa...I don't.  I see no need to rehash all of the things you and I disagree on.  Herbicides are not the direct cause of this disease, it is a bacterial infection, it is limited to the hooves and does not effect the meat, however I would not rule out some larger habitat issue (partially caused by herbicide application?) as potentially contributing to the disease.

I have never spoken with Mr. Barnes...he doesn't know me so there is no way he could have possibly called me.  I'm not sure what you are even remotely suggesting with that absurd statement.  However, I sincerely hope that he is recovering from the motorcycle accident as quickly as possible.

Hmm, he seemed to have a different impression.  Something about one of WDFW's contract vendors.  Guess it was just a big coincidence.    

Thank you for your concern about Bruce.  It'll be a long road to recovery, but he's a fighter so I think he'll get there.

[t6]

Idaho.... What "Independent Experts"     Do you mean the ones funded by Big Timber?  or the ones working for Chemical Companies?   

You'll have to clarify that for me since WDFW doesn't seem to have an answer as to why the "Independent Experts" were called in. 

[idahohuntr]

Idaho.... What "Independent Experts"     Do you mean the ones funded by Big Timber?  or the ones working for Chemical Companies?   

You'll have to clarify that for me since WDFW doesn't seem to have an answer as to why the "Independent Experts" were called in.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/advisory/ehdtag/EHDTAG_MemberRoster.pdf

These independent experts t6.    Please don't try and suggest that this group is beholden to big timber or chemical companies.

Hmm, he seemed to have a different impression.  Something about one of WDFW's contract vendors.  Guess it was just a big coincidence.    

I don't understand what the coincidence is/was?  He talked to a wdfw vendor...and so that had to be me?  I'm not following this very bizarre insinuation you seem to be trying to make.  But I will help you out...I have no more connection to wdfw than probaly 1/2 to 3/4 of the members on this forum: I volunteer a few hours a year for them and I buy licenses they sell.  No other connection between me and them...sorry.

[t6]

Listed is Anne Fairbrother who works for Exponent.....

Do your research or read the posts... Exponent represents the chemical companies...... is that hard to figure out?   

[idahohuntr]

Listed is Anne Fairbrother who works for Exponent.....

Do your research or read the posts... Exponent represents the chemical companies...... is that hard to figure out?   

Give me a break...so those 16 members all work for chemical companies? They are all lying? They are all sacrificing their reputations for some cover up?  Get real.  And just because fairbrother worked for a chemical company does not mean she has given bad or tainted advice to wdfw...simply having worked for a company is not proof of corruption...and I'm just dying to hear how you defame the other 15 members of that technical committee!   

[Mudman]

Its pretty clear that in 20 years wdfw hasnt solved this issue.  What is up?  Its not like they are trying to cure cancer?  To continue to believe they are doing everything possible with top experts is madness.  I am not that stupid.  Much more going on behind the scene-otherwise known as politics.  Follow the $.  To many coincidences.  Just a point that popped in my head is The thread with the St Helens bulls pictures.  It occurred to me that in the herd with the greatest hoof rot problem these Margaret Monument elk which spend most all their time in an area protected from spraying appear very healthy, yet animals all around them on weyco lands are sick.  Why?  Is this a wrong observation?  What does this tell us? 

[jongosch]

I've been reading a great book about the Columbia River and just happened upon this amazing passage:

"Dr. Lowell Sever, an epidemiologist in Seattle who works for Battelle Laboratories and is one of the country's leading researchers on the relationship between environment and birth defects, said there are no solid studies anywhere in the world that suggest an association between birth defects and low-level radiation exposure of the kind that occurred downwind of Hanford.  Sever participated in a study that did find elevated rates of birth defects around Hanford between 1968 and 1980, a period when atmospheric leaks form the plutonium factory were all but nonexistent.  But he and his colleagues attributed the cluster of birth defects to intensive use of pesticides by farmers."

Pesticides: Worse than plutonium

Here's the link to the study: http://articles.latimes.com/1988-07-06/news/mn-5345_1_birth-defect

[idahohuntr]

I've been reading a great book about the Columbia River and just happened upon this amazing passage:

"Dr. Lowell Sever, an epidemiologist in Seattle who works for Battelle Laboratories and is one of the country's leading researchers on the relationship between environment and birth defects, said there are no solid studies anywhere in the world that suggest an association between birth defects and low-level radiation exposure of the kind that occurred downwind of Hanford.  Sever participated in a study that did find elevated rates of birth defects around Hanford between 1968 and 1980, a period when atmospheric leaks form the plutonium factory were all but nonexistent.  But he and his colleagues attributed the cluster of birth defects to intensive use of pesticides by farmers."

Pesticides: Worse than plutonium

Here's the link to the study: http://articles.latimes.com/1988-07-06/news/mn-5345_1_birth-defect

Oh the irony kills me...you complain about Fairbrother's association with chemical companies...but when a scientist who works for Battelle, which operates Hanford, says there is no link between radiation and birth defects and blames the farmers and their pesticides...well that is just good science!   

And I'm not suggesting the Battelle scientist is wrong...but if you are going to invalidate one scientist because of her association with chemical companies, I don't think you can then turn around and praise the scientist on a nuclear site for saying there is no relationship between birth defects and radiation.   

[Bob33]

Sever participated in a study that did find elevated rates of birth defects around Hanford between 1968 and 1980, a period when atmospheric leaks form the plutonium factory were all but nonexistent.

That's a bit misleading. There were not adequate subjects to draw any conclusion. This is the executive summary from that study:

[t6]

I find it hilarious that you think Faribrother's work for the Chemical Companies is an "Association"   

Exponent is the key research company for the manufactures of Atrazine.  They have made numerous efforts to dispute or to outright lie about research that would show the harmful effects of the chemicals. 

I have to wonder what you get out attempts to discredit those that would question the use of these chemicals or their effect on WA?