4 point restriction GMU's 117 & 121

[snowpack]

That makes the assumption that what is harvested is reported.  Just speculation, but there could be a lot of spikes, forks and threes being shot but they aren't being reported or are being falsely reported as being from a different GMU.  Also, maybe it has increased lots of bigger bucks, but where bucks grow bigger; they tend to attract more poaching and bolder poachers.  So, maybe all the talk about big whiteys has drawn in a lot of hardcore head hunters.     Some of the problems of wildlife management when it relies heavily on self reporting for data.

[grundy53]

So I was just reading the Hunting prospects put out by the Washington Dept of Game.  http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/prospects/2014/district01.pdf

Down on page 19 were some interesting graph that show the number of deer harvested in each of the units in District 1 since 2006. The 4 pt restriction was put in 117 and 121 in 2011 for varying reasons depending on who you talk to, but was either to build the herd, increase hunter success, create trophies. It may be building the herd back up and creating trophies, but by reading these charts, it isn't translating into hunter success.

After three years, the harvest in these two units still isn't back to where it was pre four point rule. So any bigger herds aren't translating to hunter success. Meanwhile in the units that are still any buck a couple (101 and 105) are holding their own, but in 108, 111, and 113 the buck harvest since 2011 has steadily climbed and in 2013 units 108 and 111 had higher buck harvests than any of the previous years since 2006. In 113 the harvest in 2013 was second only to 2006. So the 4 point only rule has decreased harvest which was expected the first year, but after three years of no shooting spikes, 3 points, and forkhorns, where are all those big bucks everybody should be shooting by now? Remember? All those small bucks were going to grow up and create a hunting bonanza. But instead, the harvest is way down and it was self inflicted. Meanwhile the non restricted units have been coming back quite nicely as far as the number of deer harvested.

My friends in Metaline tell me they haven't seen as many deer as they are seeing this summer in years in 113. Of course that isn't scientific. Just local observation.

Probably because not every spike that pokes his nose out is getting slaughtered. It's  a lot easier to kill a spike then it is an older buck. Just because there are more big bucks doesn't mean they are dumber.

sent from my typewriter

[jasnt]

So I was just reading the Hunting prospects put out by the Washington Dept of Game.  http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/prospects/2014/district01.pdf

Down on page 19 were some interesting graph that show the number of deer harvested in each of the units in District 1 since 2006. The 4 pt restriction was put in 117 and 121 in 2011 for varying reasons depending on who you talk to, but was either to build the herd, increase hunter success, create trophies. It may be building the herd back up and creating trophies, but by reading these charts, it isn't translating into hunter success.

After three years, the harvest in these two units still isn't back to where it was pre four point rule. So any bigger herds aren't translating to hunter success. Meanwhile in the units that are still any buck a couple (101 and 105) are holding their own, but in 108, 111, and 113 the buck harvest since 2011 has steadily climbed and in 2013 units 108 and 111 had higher buck harvests than any of the previous years since 2006. In 113 the harvest in 2013 was second only to 2006. So the 4 point only rule has decreased harvest which was expected the first year, but after three years of no shooting spikes, 3 points, and forkhorns, where are all those big bucks everybody should be shooting by now? Remember? All those small bucks were going to grow up and create a hunting bonanza. But instead, the harvest is way down and it was self inflicted. Meanwhile the non restricted units have been coming back quite nicely as far as the number of deer harvested.

My friends in Metaline tell me they haven't seen as many deer as they are seeing this summer in years in 113. Of course that isn't scientific. Just local observation.

 

Could be that many dont like the rule and hunt the other gmu's

[buglebrush]

It really doesn't take much for a whitetail to be a 4point. I have 2 1/2 year olds right now visting my plots that are 4x4 and 4x5's  one is even 5x6. As early as 3 years ago I had mainly spikes or fork horns. Also my buck to doe ratios where 1:5.  Now im seeing closer to 1:1.5   I wouldn't mind if this rule continues indefinitely.

[boneaddict]

Problem with these statistics is lack of understanding or evaluating all the factors such as weather, winter, wolves, etc.  There is lots of impact on harvest other than just number of points.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Could be that many dont like the rule and hunt the other gmu's

"More deer and bigger bucks. So let's hunt someplace else."

The first year I could see it, but by now it should be drawing people in if it worked as advertised.

A basic rule of wild game management is, you can't stockpile animals.

http://www.hunter-ed.com/washington/studyGuide/Conservation-vs.-Preservation/20105001_700046815

http://www.clemson.edu/extension/natural_resources/wildlife/publications/fs29_population_dynamics.html

Money quotes...... "It becomes apparent that managing wildlife populations is linked to habitat management."

and "In effect, the specific causes of death tend to balance or compensate each other. Wildlife professionals call this phenomenon compensatory mortality. Stated another way, one type of mortality largely replaces another kind of mortality in animal populations, while the total mortality rate of the population remains constant."

[grundy53]

Could be that many dont like the rule and hunt the other gmu's

"More deer and bigger bucks. So let's hunt someplace else."

The first year I could see it, but by now it should be drawing people in if it worked as advertised.

A basic rule of wild game management is, you can't stockpile animals.

http://www.hunter-ed.com/washington/studyGuide/Conservation-vs.-Preservation/20105001_700046815

http://www.clemson.edu/extension/natural_resources/wildlife/publications/fs29_population_dynamics.html

Money quotes...... "It becomes apparent that managing wildlife populations is linked to habitat management."

and "In effect, the specific causes of death tend to balance or compensate each other. Wildlife professionals call this phenomenon compensatory mortality. Stated another way, one type of mortality largely replaces another kind of mortality in animal populations, while the total mortality rate of the population remains constant."

Don't underestimate the power of "any buck" vs "4- point or better". A lot of meat hunters will go to a gmu open to any buck because it seems like a better chance of putting meat in the freezer.

[nwwanderer]

I can take the flame.  This point restriction thing certainly has increased the number of bucks around, not the quality.  True, the number of points is not a very heritable trait but mass and structure is.  As a young guy I never say a spike locally, read about them in other areas but rarely saw one.  Now they are not only common but dominate.  Six were around this morning.  It  was not unusual for first horns to be 4x4's, little, narrow but on the way to being a monster.  Do not see many of those now, we are selecting against them.  More young bucks are taken than old bucks and those long yearling branch antler bucks are the first to go, legal and stupid.  Some other criteria to save those young multipoint bucks would greatly improve antlers if that is what you want.  Width might be a good choice, inside the ears, let them walk.  Spikes only like the elk would help with the current genetic makeup,  Maybe extra draw points if you take a spike. 

[PA BEN]

From someone who lives here and has hunted here for 39 years, missed two of those years for the military. If you want to increase the herd stop "ALL DOE HUNTING" and kill more coyotes. The 4 point rule came about because rifle hunters were pissed at the bow hunters and the big money guys who hunt here wanted it, they got the county commissioners on board and lobbied the game dept.. This just didn't happen overnight, the lobbying has been going on since '91. I know because I went to the so called hunters meetings, myself and the rest of the bow hunters that went got ran off.  Meanwhile the kids are cut short. I don't care who you are and what you say about "THE HUNTING EXPERIENCE". The bottom line to a kid is filling their tag. And thats what its all about. Those of us who know how to hunt, can hunt, but if it's not fun and no deer tags filled, kids will loose interest. I have 5 daughters and all have harvested a doe for their first deer but 1, she shot a spike. After a doe kill, which was the best experience ever, then they wanted a buck. Most if not all of the locals I talk to want any deer for kids. But, the big bad hunter who does not live here, wants it different. OK I'm done, flame on boys and girls.

[grundy53]

I agree with ending the doe hunting.

sent from my typewriter

[T-Dozzer]

Keep it. In fact, I would like to see gmu's 127-142 go to higher minimum. We need more mature deer. The only exception should be youth or first time hunters.

[T-Dozzer]

"Earn a buck" would be nice to. Something like a minimum of one coyote before you can take a mature buck.  Exception for youth, disabled, first timers.

[jasnt]

Could be that many dont like the rule and hunt the other gmu's

"More deer and bigger bucks. So let's hunt someplace else."

The first year I could see it, but by now it should be drawing people in if it worked as advertised.

A basic rule of wild game management is, you can't stockpile animals.

http://www.hunter-ed.com/washington/studyGuide/Conservation-vs.-Preservation/20105001_700046815

http://www.clemson.edu/extension/natural_resources/wildlife/publications/fs29_population_dynamics.html

Money quotes...... "It becomes apparent that managing wildlife populations is linked to habitat management."

and "In effect, the specific causes of death tend to balance or compensate each other. Wildlife professionals call this phenomenon compensatory mortality. Stated another way, one type of mortality largely replaces another kind of mortality in animal populations, while the total mortality rate of the population remains constant."

Don't underestimate the power of "any buck" vs "4- point or better". A lot of meat hunters will go to a gmu open to any buck because it seems like a better chance of putting meat in the freezer.

[jasnt]

From someone who lives here and has hunted here for 39 years, missed two of those years for the military. If you want to increase the herd stop "ALL DOE HUNTING" and kill more coyotes. The 4 point rule came about because rifle hunters were pissed at the bow hunters and the big money guys who hunt here wanted it, they got the county commissioners on board and lobbied the game dept.. This just didn't happen overnight, the lobbying has been going on since '91. I know because I went to the so called hunters meetings, myself and the rest of the bow hunters that went got ran off.  Meanwhile the kids are cut short. I don't care who you are and what you say about "THE HUNTING EXPERIENCE". The bottom line to a kid is filling their tag. And thats what its all about. Those of us who know how to hunt, can hunt, but if it's not fun and no deer tags filled, kids will loose interest. I have 5 daughters and all have harvested a doe for their first deer but 1, she shot a spike. After a doe kill, which was the best experience ever, then they wanted a buck. Most if not all of the locals I talk to want any deer for kids. But, the big bad hunter who does not live here, wants it different. OK I'm done, flame on boys and girls.

I understand what your saying,and im all for getting youth involved in hunting. I agree with everything except stopping all doe hunting is flat out crazy. The buck to doe ratio is not good in many areas and that causes extra doe cycles( not getting bred and coming in to heat again) this is bad news because it means late fawns. A fawn can only gain fat after it has reached a certain size. Late fawns and twins for that matter are not able to gain enough fat to make it threw winter healthy. Basicly they play catch up most of their early life( some all their life). This makes smaller deer less healthy heard and plays hell on herd numbers.

[gun-dog]

I have seen the number of deer explode around my place since they put in the 4-point restriction.  I love the restriction personally because it forces people to take more mature animals.  our animals are living longer and able to spread their genes.  I wish every unit had a restriction like this.  that being said, QDM requires culling of the doe herd.  I have TONS OF DOE and I would welcome youth and disabled to help me in managing the deer around here.