Wash. reports new wolf pack found

[Special T]

Here is the problem when we here "more habitat". More does not equal productive habitat. What has the USFS or other Gov agencies doing to make their land more productive?   There are a few controlled burns, very little logging, and road decommissioning.  I liken this to my daughter telling me she wants a pony, and how great and wonderful it would be. This MAY be the case but she has a puppy already that she kind of takes care of, but daddy picks up the slack so it doesn't go hungry, thirsty or the crap piles up too high...

If you compare the job of the Forrester in many European countries I think you will see a more boots on the ground approach,and ACTIVE management. Here is an interesting article about the roots of forest practices. Im afraid that the current "hands off" approach is more political than actual management.

http://www.gmbookchest.com/pdf/Forestry_Politics.pdf

[nwwanderer]

'Habitat' seems to be a code word for more land control by agencies with shattered budgets, little experience in land use and questionable staffing.  How much of our wildlife resource is fed and covered on private land with little or no compensation and owner sacrifice?

[AspenBud]

Here is the problem when we here "more habitat". More does not equal productive habitat. What has the USFS or other Gov agencies doing to make their land more productive?   There are a few controlled burns, very little logging, and road decommissioning.  I liken this to my daughter telling me she wants a pony, and how great and wonderful it would be. This MAY be the case but she has a puppy already that she kind of takes care of, but daddy picks up the slack so it doesn't go hungry, thirsty or the crap piles up too high...

If you compare the job of the Forrester in many European countries I think you will see a more boots on the ground approach,and ACTIVE management. Here is an interesting article about the roots of forest practices. Im afraid that the current "hands off" approach is more political than actual management.

http://www.gmbookchest.com/pdf/Forestry_Politics.pdf

I can't argue any of that. But that doesn't make private land ownership a panacea either.

[idahohuntr]

Here is the problem when we here "more habitat". More does not equal productive habitat. What has the USFS or other Gov agencies doing to make their land more productive?   There are a few controlled burns, very little logging, and road decommissioning.  I liken this to my daughter telling me she wants a pony, and how great and wonderful it would be. This MAY be the case but she has a puppy already that she kind of takes care of, but daddy picks up the slack so it doesn't go hungry, thirsty or the crap piles up too high...

If you compare the job of the Forrester in many European countries I think you will see a more boots on the ground approach,and ACTIVE management. Here is an interesting article about the roots of forest practices. Im afraid that the current "hands off" approach is more political than actual management.

http://www.gmbookchest.com/pdf/Forestry_Politics.pdf

Tell me, how is the hunting over in those european countries with their active management?  I mean since they obviously have it down maybe I should give up on Utah, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Colorado...states with tons of public land...and focus on what...UK? France? Italy? 

[Bob33]

I mean since they obviously have it down maybe I should give up on Utah, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Colorado...states with tons of public land...and focus on what...UK? France? Italy? 

Well, at least the wine in France and Italy is better than in Utah.

[AspenBud]

Here is the problem when we here "more habitat". More does not equal productive habitat. What has the USFS or other Gov agencies doing to make their land more productive?   There are a few controlled burns, very little logging, and road decommissioning.  I liken this to my daughter telling me she wants a pony, and how great and wonderful it would be. This MAY be the case but she has a puppy already that she kind of takes care of, but daddy picks up the slack so it doesn't go hungry, thirsty or the crap piles up too high...

If you compare the job of the Forrester in many European countries I think you will see a more boots on the ground approach,and ACTIVE management. Here is an interesting article about the roots of forest practices. Im afraid that the current "hands off" approach is more political than actual management.

http://www.gmbookchest.com/pdf/Forestry_Politics.pdf

Tell me, how is the hunting over in those european countries with their active management?  I mean since they obviously have it down maybe I should give up on Utah, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Colorado...states with tons of public land...and focus on what...UK? France? Italy? 

In fairness, there are some very old traditions that are stuffed into law in many European countries that grant access to the public on privately owned lands that are uncultivated. But that does not give you the right to hunt on them.

I think most average people would choke if they saw what Europeans often pay for the right to hunt. Rich man's sport.

[Billdos Uncle]

Here is the problem when we here "more habitat". More does not equal productive habitat. What has the USFS or other Gov agencies doing to make their land more productive?   There are a few controlled burns, very little logging, and road decommissioning.  I liken this to my daughter telling me she wants a pony, and how great and wonderful it would be. This MAY be the case but she has a puppy already that she kind of takes care of, but daddy picks up the slack so it doesn't go hungry, thirsty or the crap piles up too high...

If you compare the job of the Forrester in many European countries I think you will see a more boots on the ground approach,and ACTIVE management. Here is an interesting article about the roots of forest practices. Im afraid that the current "hands off" approach is more political than actual management.

http://www.gmbookchest.com/pdf/Forestry_Politics.pdf

Tell me, how is the hunting over in those european countries with their active management?  I mean since they obviously have it down maybe I should give up on Utah, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Colorado...states with tons of public land...and focus on what...UK? France? Italy? 

In fairness, there are some very old traditions that are stuffed into law in many European countries that grant access to the public on privately owned lands that are uncultivated. But that does not give you the right to hunt on them.

I think most average people would choke if they saw what Europeans often pay for the right to hunt. Rich man's sport.

Hell hunting in Washington is getting there compared to other states... That's for sure!!!

[KFhunter]

I'd hunt those two countries, some different and neat critters there.
http://www.francesafaris.com/


...and we could learn a thing or two from Italians:
http://www.tuscanenterprises.com/Blog/id:29/

The hunters are a huge political lobby in Italy, and while they are fairly strong on the national level, with the backing of such companies as Beretta, (with its factories producing endless streams of rifles, shotguns and handguns and employing several thousand workers), it is really at the local small town level that they decide who gets elected to the town councils.

(I couldn't abide by the tresspass laws in Italy though, IDH would LOVE that)

They are allowed to enter any property, scale walls, jump over fences, and are only held back from the areas that are specifically fenced off for the breeding of rare animals, or for hunting reserves.

Not sure why France and Italy belong in a discussion about wolves in WA 

[Billdos Uncle]

I'd hunt those two countries, some different and neat critters there.
http://www.francesafaris.com/


...and we could learn a thing or two from Italians:
http://www.tuscanenterprises.com/Blog/id:29/

The hunters are a huge political lobby in Italy, and while they are fairly strong on the national level, with the backing of such companies as Beretta, (with its factories producing endless streams of rifles, shotguns and handguns and employing several thousand workers), it is really at the local small town level that they decide who gets elected to the town councils.

(I couldn't abide by the tresspass laws in Italy though, IDH would LOVE that)

They are allowed to enter any property, scale walls, jump over fences, and are only held back from the areas that are specifically fenced off for the breeding of rare animals, or for hunting reserves.

Not sure why France and Italy belong in a discussion about wolves in WA 

Its the Pro-Wolf Advocates trying to change the subject! 

[idahohuntr]

I'd hunt those two countries, some different and neat critters there.
http://www.francesafaris.com/


...and we could learn a thing or two from Italians:
http://www.tuscanenterprises.com/Blog/id:29/

The hunters are a huge political lobby in Italy, and while they are fairly strong on the national level, with the backing of such companies as Beretta, (with its factories producing endless streams of rifles, shotguns and handguns and employing several thousand workers), it is really at the local small town level that they decide who gets elected to the town councils.

(I couldn't abide by the tresspass laws in Italy though, IDH would LOVE that)

They are allowed to enter any property, scale walls, jump over fences, and are only held back from the areas that are specifically fenced off for the breeding of rare animals, or for hunting reserves.

Not sure why France and Italy belong in a discussion about wolves in WA 

Well, you go hunt Italy and France then.  I'm going to stick to the western US...even with their lack of active management.

[AspenBud]

Here is the problem when we here "more habitat". More does not equal productive habitat. What has the USFS or other Gov agencies doing to make their land more productive?   There are a few controlled burns, very little logging, and road decommissioning.  I liken this to my daughter telling me she wants a pony, and how great and wonderful it would be. This MAY be the case but she has a puppy already that she kind of takes care of, but daddy picks up the slack so it doesn't go hungry, thirsty or the crap piles up too high...

If you compare the job of the Forrester in many European countries I think you will see a more boots on the ground approach,and ACTIVE management. Here is an interesting article about the roots of forest practices. Im afraid that the current "hands off" approach is more political than actual management.

http://www.gmbookchest.com/pdf/Forestry_Politics.pdf

Tell me, how is the hunting over in those european countries with their active management?  I mean since they obviously have it down maybe I should give up on Utah, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Colorado...states with tons of public land...and focus on what...UK? France? Italy? 

In fairness, there are some very old traditions that are stuffed into law in many European countries that grant access to the public on privately owned lands that are uncultivated. But that does not give you the right to hunt on them.

I think most average people would choke if they saw what Europeans often pay for the right to hunt. Rich man's sport.

Hell hunting in Washington is getting there compared to other states... That's for sure!!!

Yep, and the state license fees are just the start. 

[Special T]

Here is the problem when we here "more habitat". More does not equal productive habitat. What has the USFS or other Gov agencies doing to make their land more productive?   There are a few controlled burns, very little logging, and road decommissioning.  I liken this to my daughter telling me she wants a pony, and how great and wonderful it would be. This MAY be the case but she has a puppy already that she kind of takes care of, but daddy picks up the slack so it doesn't go hungry, thirsty or the crap piles up too high...

If you compare the job of the Forrester in many European countries I think you will see a more boots on the ground approach,and ACTIVE management. Here is an interesting article about the roots of forest practices. Im afraid that the current "hands off" approach is more political than actual management.

http://www.gmbookchest.com/pdf/Forestry_Politics.pdf

Tell me, how is the hunting over in those european countries with their active management?  I mean since they obviously have it down maybe I should give up on Utah, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Colorado...states with tons of public land...and focus on what...UK? France? Italy? 

It USED to be the goal of the USFS to maximize the utilization of the resources by ALL vested interests, not individual ones. I think if you actually do some reading about the USFS you will find that it was founded to bring balance to the system away from the stripping of resources from the land.

When logging is severely reduced even when good forestry practices are accepted we are no longer "managing" resources. In perishable commodities like lumber and grass it is even arguable that we may not be really preserving them.

I didn't point out Germany because of their great hunting opportunities, however if you look up a few of Addicted's  posts he talks a bunch about his experiences while hunting there. I mention Germany because they were one of the FIRST to actively manage forest resources that gave way to Gifford Pinchot, whom we have a Forrest named after, but you would know that since you read the article i posted. Look at how the USFS MANAGED land then and how they do now. I would imagine with our greater scientific understanding of the animals and their relations we should have bumper crops of timber, animals and fish. Unfortunately management has been reduced to legal wrangling not asset management.

You can do a bunch of other reading about the history of the once great USFS and compare it to how we have gotten to where we are today.
The Tinder Box: How Politically Correct Ideology Destroyed the U.S. Forest Service Paperback – February 28, 2012
by Christopher Burchfield (Author)

[idahohuntr]

I think if you actually do some reading about the USFS you will find that it was founded to bring balance to the system away from the stripping of resources from the land.

Thank you Special T.  I teach natural resource management courses, including one that focuses on the history of resource management agencies in the US.  I am well versed in how they have moved from very utilitarian focused entities from their early history until the 60's and 70's when preservationist views started to take hold.    I confess I did not read your article though.  Gifford Pinchot was indeed a driving force of these utilitarian views and policies in the USFS at its inception as the first chief of that agency. 

[rim_runner]

two good books on the early USFS. "Aldo Lepold; his life and work" by Curt Meine and the " the big burn" by Tim Egan.