Ranchers urge relocation of Washington wolf packs [to Western Washington]

[baldopepper]

Bobcat I agree with you that a lot of the hysteria and hyperbole about wolves is unrealistic, but really the problem is that people are just realistically afraid to live around wolves.  Obviously they are not the man eating, night stalking devils that some seem to believe, but on the other hand they are not the cute, cudily basically harmless animal that others would have you believe.  The point with me is that many people who want wolf reintroduction really want them to be a long ways away from them and it's unfair to those people who have to live near them.  I also believe that wolf introduction is being done without a real assessment on the end effect regarding our big game management. No, I don't think they will wipe out every game animal in an area, but to think they won't  severely impact big game herds  is naïve also.  Even if you are not a hunter I would think you'd have to be concerned with the uncountable kill tally from large numbers of wolves in an area.  Guess it's kind of like new prisons to me, everyone wants more to get criminals off the street, they just don't want them in their neighborhood. People on the westside don't want wolves around simply because they are afraid of them, I think the only way they'll really sympathize with the eastside folks is when they experience that fear first hand.  I don't buy any conspiracy on the part of WDFW or any of the Big Govt. is out to get me stuff.  WDFW is caught in the middle of an issue that they are underfunded and undermanned to really deal with , but are responsible for handling.  I don't suspect we'll really see wolves on the westside for a long time, if ever, but honestly believe that if they did show up over here there'd be a whole different management plan in effect.

[PA BEN]

OK maybe not overnight, but by the time the state goes through their wolf management plan it could happen in a matter of days. Yes cattle prices are up but the cost of everything to get them to market is up also. The sheep losses alone are up there right now. But, they got one wolf out of that pack.

[PA BEN]

Bobcat I agree with you that a lot of the hysteria and hyperbole about wolves is unrealistic, but really the problem is that people are just realistically afraid to live around wolves.  Obviously they are not the man eating, night stalking devils that some seem to believe, but on the other hand they are not the cute, cudily basically harmless animal that others would have you believe.  The point with me is that many people who want wolf reintroduction really want them to be a long ways away from them and it's unfair to those people who have to live near them.  I also believe that wolf introduction is being done without a real assessment on the end effect regarding our big game management. No, I don't think they will wipe out every game animal in an area, but to think they won't  severely impact big game herds  is naïve also.  Even if you are not a hunter I would think you'd have to be concerned with the uncountable kill tally from large numbers of wolves in an area.  Guess it's kind of like new prisons to me, everyone wants more to get criminals off the street, they just don't want them in their neighborhood. People on the westside don't want wolves around simply because they are afraid of them, I think the only way they'll really sympathize with the eastside folks is when they experience that fear first hand.  I don't buy any conspiracy on the part of WDFW or any of the Big Govt. is out to get me stuff.  WDFW is caught in the middle of an issue that they are underfunded and undermanned to really deal with , but are responsible for handling.  I don't suspect we'll really see wolves on the westside for a long time, if ever, but honestly believe that if they did show up over here there'd be a whole different management plan in effect.

The question was asked about the wildlife. As long as there's a surplus we will have hunting. When the big game we hunt is down to 25% then the hunting will stop. Strate from the meeting.

[bobcat]

But here's the thing- those wolves would still be there and would still be killing livestock, even if the state had never written a "wolf plan."

Let's even go one step further and say the wolves have been delisted and are no longer on the endangered list, and could legally be killed by ranchers to protect their livestock.

Would that change anything? Would wolves then stop killing livestock? I doubt it. If you want to be a rancher, learn to deal with the wolves, just like you've had to deal with cougars, bears, and coyotes.

[vandeman17]

Bobcat I agree with you that a lot of the hysteria and hyperbole about wolves is unrealistic, but really the problem is that people are just realistically afraid to live around wolves.  Obviously they are not the man eating, night stalking devils that some seem to believe, but on the other hand they are not the cute, cudily basically harmless animal that others would have you believe.  The point with me is that many people who want wolf reintroduction really want them to be a long ways away from them and it's unfair to those people who have to live near them.  I also believe that wolf introduction is being done without a real assessment on the end effect regarding our big game management. No, I don't think they will wipe out every game animal in an area, but to think they won't  severely impact big game herds  is naïve also.  Even if you are not a hunter I would think you'd have to be concerned with the uncountable kill tally from large numbers of wolves in an area.  Guess it's kind of like new prisons to me, everyone wants more to get criminals off the street, they just don't want them in their neighborhood. People on the westside don't want wolves around simply because they are afraid of them, I think the only way they'll really sympathize with the eastside folks is when they experience that fear first hand.  I don't buy any conspiracy on the part of WDFW or any of the Big Govt. is out to get me stuff.  WDFW is caught in the middle of an issue that they are underfunded and undermanned to really deal with , but are responsible for handling.  I don't suspect we'll really see wolves on the westside for a long time, if ever, but honestly believe that if they did show up over here there'd be a whole different management plan in effect.

I would also add to this that many people are under the false impression that wolves only kill the weak, injured, starving, or what have you? They truly believe that they will just balance out the ecosystem and until they see thrill kills or killing healthy animals and just eating parts of them, they will never understand.

[vandeman17]

But here's the thing- those wolves would still be there and would still be killing livestock, even if the state had never written a "wolf plan."

Let's even go one step further and say the wolves have been delisted and are no longer on the endangered list, and could legally be killed by ranchers to protect their livestock.

Would that change anything? Would wolves then stop killing livestock? I doubt it. If you want to be a rancher, learn to deal with the wolves, just like you've had to deal with cougars, bears, and coyotes.

I think if ranchers were allowed to protect their livestock by killing wolves they wouldn't have NEARLY the issue with them and would learn to live with them. 

[bobcat]

But here's the thing- those wolves would still be there and would still be killing livestock, even if the state had never written a "wolf plan."

Let's even go one step further and say the wolves have been delisted and are no longer on the endangered list, and could legally be killed by ranchers to protect their livestock.

Would that change anything? Would wolves then stop killing livestock? I doubt it. If you want to be a rancher, learn to deal with the wolves, just like you've had to deal with cougars, bears, and coyotes.

I think if ranchers were allowed to protect their livestock by killing wolves they wouldn't have NEARLY the issue with them and would learn to live with them. 

I'm sure they are already doing that, they just don't tell anybody. And, isn't it actually legal in some situations?

[vandeman17]

But here's the thing- those wolves would still be there and would still be killing livestock, even if the state had never written a "wolf plan."

Let's even go one step further and say the wolves have been delisted and are no longer on the endangered list, and could legally be killed by ranchers to protect their livestock.

Would that change anything? Would wolves then stop killing livestock? I doubt it. If you want to be a rancher, learn to deal with the wolves, just like you've had to deal with cougars, bears, and coyotes.

I think if ranchers were allowed to protect their livestock by killing wolves they wouldn't have NEARLY the issue with them and would learn to live with them. 

I'm sure they are already doing that, they just don't tell anybody. And, isn't it actually legal in some situations?

I am sure some are and I have no problem with it but by making it legal, it would give them the trust that at least there is empathy for their situation. WDFW is in a tough spot as well with this whole thing

[AspenBud]

Bobcat I agree with you that a lot of the hysteria and hyperbole about wolves is unrealistic, but really the problem is that people are just realistically afraid to live around wolves.  Obviously they are not the man eating, night stalking devils that some seem to believe, but on the other hand they are not the cute, cudily basically harmless animal that others would have you believe.  The point with me is that many people who want wolf reintroduction really want them to be a long ways away from them and it's unfair to those people who have to live near them.  I also believe that wolf introduction is being done without a real assessment on the end effect regarding our big game management. No, I don't think they will wipe out every game animal in an area, but to think they won't  severely impact big game herds  is naïve also.  Even if you are not a hunter I would think you'd have to be concerned with the uncountable kill tally from large numbers of wolves in an area.  Guess it's kind of like new prisons to me, everyone wants more to get criminals off the street, they just don't want them in their neighborhood. People on the westside don't want wolves around simply because they are afraid of them, I think the only way they'll really sympathize with the eastside folks is when they experience that fear first hand.  I don't buy any conspiracy on the part of WDFW or any of the Big Govt. is out to get me stuff.  WDFW is caught in the middle of an issue that they are underfunded and undermanned to really deal with , but are responsible for handling.  I don't suspect we'll really see wolves on the westside for a long time, if ever, but honestly believe that if they did show up over here there'd be a whole different management plan in effect.

I would also add to this that many people are under the false impression that wolves only kill the weak, injured, starving, or what have you? They truly believe that they will just balance out the ecosystem and until they see thrill kills or killing healthy animals and just eating parts of them, they will never understand.

I hate to break it to you but not all animals are born equal. While some might look healthy that does not mean that under the hood they have the tools needed to survive. Weakness encompasses far more than physical appearance or health when talking about wild animals. Dog breeding is a great comparison. High levels of selectivity lead to better specimens, water that down and you get inferior specimens. We have a lot of genetically watered down ungulate populations...which is a problem for both pro wolfers and pro management folks whether they understand/believe it or not.

[PA BEN]

But here's the thing- those wolves would still be there and would still be killing livestock, even if the state had never written a "wolf plan."

Let's even go one step further and say the wolves have been delisted and are no longer on the endangered list, and could legally be killed by ranchers to protect their livestock.

Would that change anything? Would wolves then stop killing livestock? I doubt it. If you want to be a rancher, learn to deal with the wolves, just like you've had to deal with cougars, bears, and coyotes.

I think if ranchers were allowed to protect their livestock by killing wolves they wouldn't have NEARLY the issue with them and would learn to live with them. 

No one said the wolves will all be gone. But with the wolf management plan as it stands right now, the wolves will be very out of control sooner than later. They said it's a 38% growth rate in the last few years, unchecked they will be out of control. 

[vandeman17]

Bobcat I agree with you that a lot of the hysteria and hyperbole about wolves is unrealistic, but really the problem is that people are just realistically afraid to live around wolves.  Obviously they are not the man eating, night stalking devils that some seem to believe, but on the other hand they are not the cute, cudily basically harmless animal that others would have you believe.  The point with me is that many people who want wolf reintroduction really want them to be a long ways away from them and it's unfair to those people who have to live near them.  I also believe that wolf introduction is being done without a real assessment on the end effect regarding our big game management. No, I don't think they will wipe out every game animal in an area, but to think they won't  severely impact big game herds  is naïve also.  Even if you are not a hunter I would think you'd have to be concerned with the uncountable kill tally from large numbers of wolves in an area.  Guess it's kind of like new prisons to me, everyone wants more to get criminals off the street, they just don't want them in their neighborhood. People on the westside don't want wolves around simply because they are afraid of them, I think the only way they'll really sympathize with the eastside folks is when they experience that fear first hand.  I don't buy any conspiracy on the part of WDFW or any of the Big Govt. is out to get me stuff.  WDFW is caught in the middle of an issue that they are underfunded and undermanned to really deal with , but are responsible for handling.  I don't suspect we'll really see wolves on the westside for a long time, if ever, but honestly believe that if they did show up over here there'd be a whole different management plan in effect.

I would also add to this that many people are under the false impression that wolves only kill the weak, injured, starving, or what have you? They truly believe that they will just balance out the ecosystem and until they see thrill kills or killing healthy animals and just eating parts of them, they will never understand.

I hate to break it to you but not all animals are born equal. While some might look healthy that does not mean that under the hood they have the tools needed to survive. Weakness encompasses far more than physical appearance or health when talking about wild animals. Dog breeding is a great comparison. High levels of selectivity lead to better specimens, water that down and you get inferior specimens. We have a lot of genetically watered down ungulate populations...which is a problem for both pro wolfers and pro management folks whether they understand/believe it or not.

So are you saying every single animal a wolf kills has some sort of weakness and that wolves inherently know this? Do you have a source for this or is this your opinion. I find it very hard to believe

[buckfvr]

Wolves should get no more stroke than coug and bear.......let the ranchers deal with them, and forget about it......on the other hand it would be nice to see the concern and willingness ( of wdfw ) to spend money directed to the Methow mule deer derd over the up coming winter......save as many as possible.  Less money for helicopter rides and more for feeding mule deer.

The push for wolves is and has been about one thing........chewing the deer and elk herds down to the point they need to be protected, ending hunting, and getting guns............if you cant connect those dots, you arent paying attention.

[AspenBud]

Bobcat I agree with you that a lot of the hysteria and hyperbole about wolves is unrealistic, but really the problem is that people are just realistically afraid to live around wolves.  Obviously they are not the man eating, night stalking devils that some seem to believe, but on the other hand they are not the cute, cudily basically harmless animal that others would have you believe.  The point with me is that many people who want wolf reintroduction really want them to be a long ways away from them and it's unfair to those people who have to live near them.  I also believe that wolf introduction is being done without a real assessment on the end effect regarding our big game management. No, I don't think they will wipe out every game animal in an area, but to think they won't  severely impact big game herds  is naïve also.  Even if you are not a hunter I would think you'd have to be concerned with the uncountable kill tally from large numbers of wolves in an area.  Guess it's kind of like new prisons to me, everyone wants more to get criminals off the street, they just don't want them in their neighborhood. People on the westside don't want wolves around simply because they are afraid of them, I think the only way they'll really sympathize with the eastside folks is when they experience that fear first hand.  I don't buy any conspiracy on the part of WDFW or any of the Big Govt. is out to get me stuff.  WDFW is caught in the middle of an issue that they are underfunded and undermanned to really deal with , but are responsible for handling.  I don't suspect we'll really see wolves on the westside for a long time, if ever, but honestly believe that if they did show up over here there'd be a whole different management plan in effect.

I would also add to this that many people are under the false impression that wolves only kill the weak, injured, starving, or what have you? They truly believe that they will just balance out the ecosystem and until they see thrill kills or killing healthy animals and just eating parts of them, they will never understand.

I hate to break it to you but not all animals are born equal. While some might look healthy that does not mean that under the hood they have the tools needed to survive. Weakness encompasses far more than physical appearance or health when talking about wild animals. Dog breeding is a great comparison. High levels of selectivity lead to better specimens, water that down and you get inferior specimens. We have a lot of genetically watered down ungulate populations...which is a problem for both pro wolfers and pro management folks whether they understand/believe it or not.

So are you saying every single animal a wolf kills has some sort of weakness and that wolves inherently know this? Do you have a source for this or is this your opinion. I find it very hard to believe

I think every animal they take down had a weakness they exploited. It's called survival of the fittest for a reason. Some will make it, some will not. Some chance is involved there but at the end of it some, and it may only be a small fraction, are better able to fend for themselves than others. Equality does not exist in the natural world.

[AspenBud]

The push for wolves is and has been about one thing........chewing the deer and elk herds down to the point they need to be protected, ending hunting, and getting guns............if you cant connect those dots, you arent paying attention.

My boss showed me a picture of a buddy of his the other day...standing next to a nice bull elk he got in Montana last week. Looks like wolves are falling short of that goal...though he did do it with a bow and not a gun....

[vandeman17]

Bobcat I agree with you that a lot of the hysteria and hyperbole about wolves is unrealistic, but really the problem is that people are just realistically afraid to live around wolves.  Obviously they are not the man eating, night stalking devils that some seem to believe, but on the other hand they are not the cute, cudily basically harmless animal that others would have you believe.  The point with me is that many people who want wolf reintroduction really want them to be a long ways away from them and it's unfair to those people who have to live near them.  I also believe that wolf introduction is being done without a real assessment on the end effect regarding our big game management. No, I don't think they will wipe out every game animal in an area, but to think they won't  severely impact big game herds  is naïve also.  Even if you are not a hunter I would think you'd have to be concerned with the uncountable kill tally from large numbers of wolves in an area.  Guess it's kind of like new prisons to me, everyone wants more to get criminals off the street, they just don't want them in their neighborhood. People on the westside don't want wolves around simply because they are afraid of them, I think the only way they'll really sympathize with the eastside folks is when they experience that fear first hand.  I don't buy any conspiracy on the part of WDFW or any of the Big Govt. is out to get me stuff.  WDFW is caught in the middle of an issue that they are underfunded and undermanned to really deal with , but are responsible for handling.  I don't suspect we'll really see wolves on the westside for a long time, if ever, but honestly believe that if they did show up over here there'd be a whole different management plan in effect.

I would also add to this that many people are under the false impression that wolves only kill the weak, injured, starving, or what have you? They truly believe that they will just balance out the ecosystem and until they see thrill kills or killing healthy animals and just eating parts of them, they will never understand.

I hate to break it to you but not all animals are born equal. While some might look healthy that does not mean that under the hood they have the tools needed to survive. Weakness encompasses far more than physical appearance or health when talking about wild animals. Dog breeding is a great comparison. High levels of selectivity lead to better specimens, water that down and you get inferior specimens. We have a lot of genetically watered down ungulate populations...which is a problem for both pro wolfers and pro management folks whether they understand/believe it or not.

So are you saying every single animal a wolf kills has some sort of weakness and that wolves inherently know this? Do you have a source for this or is this your opinion. I find it very hard to believe

I think every animal they take down had a weakness they exploited. It's called survival of the fittest for a reason. Some will make it, some will not. Some chance is involved there but at the end of it some, and it may only be a small fraction, are better able to fend for themselves than others. Equality does not exist in the natural world.

A weakness in regards to the wolves sheer power, speed, numbers etc. A bull elk that breaks away from the herd to browse on some grass, gets surrounded by wolves, taken down, partially eaten and left for scavengers was weak? I think you are stretching an already weak argument but it is your opinion and we are all entitled to them.