"I will not comply" on KIRO

[yorketransport]

Initiatives can be good or bad depending on which side of the fence you may be on.  Unfortunately, initiatives are passed by a simple majority in this state which is not good; that means 51% of the people can tell 49% of the people what to do.  In this state, initiatives will obviously lead to disaster for gun-owners and hunters every time due the extreme, liberal/socialist, anti-gun, anti-hunting tendencies of many of the people that live in some of our densely populated urban areas.  The trampling of rights are further jeopardized when billionaires throw in millions of dollars to fund a propaganda campaign.  What's next?

So the lesson here is that Democracy is bad?

You can't support democracy and then be frustrated when it doesn't go your way. And you can't be mad at private parties throwing money into a "propaganda campaign" when both sides do the same thing. In this case the anti gun side had more money. Apply this same logic other ideological debates and I bet you'll find that sometimes it's the more conservative side throwing money at a campaign instead of the liberal side. Then the "liberals" will be complaining about the rich conservatives buying votes.

[wsmnut]

So the lesson here is that Democracy is bad?

You can't support democracy and then be frustrated when it doesn't go your way. And you can't be mad at private parties throwing money into a "propaganda campaign" when both sides do the same thing. In this case the anti gun side had more money. Apply this same logic other ideological debates and I bet you'll find that sometimes it's the more conservative side throwing money at a campaign instead of the liberal side. Then the "liberals" will be complaining about the rich conservatives buying votes.
[/quote]

Very well said!

Wsmnut

[Lucky1]

Initiatives can be good or bad depending on which side of the fence you may be on.  Unfortunately, initiatives are passed by a simple majority in this state which is not good; that means 51% of the people can tell 49% of the people what to do.  In this state, initiatives will obviously lead to disaster for gun-owners and hunters every time due the extreme, liberal/socialist, anti-gun, anti-hunting tendencies of many of the people that live in some of our densely populated urban areas.  The trampling of rights are further jeopardized when billionaires throw in millions of dollars to fund a propaganda campaign.  What's next?

So the lesson here is that Democracy is bad?

You can't support democracy and then be frustrated when it doesn't go your way. And you can't be mad at private parties throwing money into a "propaganda campaign" when both sides do the same thing. In this case the anti gun side had more money. Apply this same logic other ideological debates and I bet you'll find that sometimes it's the more conservative side throwing money at a campaign instead of the liberal side. Then the "liberals" will be complaining about the rich conservatives buying votes.

Pure democracy can be a bad way to run a country or state. We have a constitutional republic with democratic processes. The constitution and the rule of law prevent the majority from infringing on the rights of the minority. Picture 2 wolves and 1 sheep voting on what's for dinner.
I believe many states do not have the initiative process and their government seems to work ok. I am for getting rid of the initiative process.

[huntrights]

Lucky1 did a good job of explaining it.

Yes, absolutely; straight democracy is BAD.  That is why our system of government in the Untied States is a Constitutional Republic; it is NOT straight democracy.  Absolute democracy would allow 51% of the people to control and dominate 49% of the people; that system of government does NOT work.  That is why we have the Bill of Rights; they cannot be taken away.  Although, the 51% keep trying to do so (i.e. I-594 and the bad anti-gun laws passed in states like New York).

We elect our local, state, and U.S. representatives through the democratic process (simple majority); They are supposed to support and defend the Constitution (Oath of Office).  However, the system is different for the Presidential elections.  "The Electoral College is a process, not a place. The founding fathers established it in the Constitution as a compromise between election of the President by a vote in Congress and election of the President by a popular vote of qualified citizens.

The Electoral College process consists of the selection of the electors, the meeting of the electors where they vote for President and Vice President, and the counting of the electoral votes by Congress.

The Electoral College consists of 538 electors. A majority of 270 electoral votes is required to elect the President. Your state’s entitled allotment of electors equals the number of members in its Congressional delegation: one for each member in the House of Representatives plus two for your Senators." (http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/electoral-college/about.html)

The President and Vice President are also supposed to support and defend the Constitution (Oath of Office).

When the outcome of initiatives are significantly influenced by the propaganda funded by billionaires with an agenda, then initiatives that are decided by a simple majority are bad and can be abused as seen with I-594.  This is an issue that should be looked at closely, and changed if necessary, to ensure the initiative process is not abused to create a situation in which 51% of the people control 49% of the people.  When it comes to initiatives, it might be better if initiatives required a super-majority in order to be passed into law or for the legislature to use them as advisory tools to get a feel for what their constituency wants.  Look at I-1351; that initiative almost literally passed with 51% of the votes; that is, 51% of the people are telling the other 49% of the people what to do.

Using Lucky1's example: Picture 51 wolves and 49 sheep voting on what's for dinner.  The outcome will never be good for the sheep even though they make up nearly half of the population.  In the case of I-1351, there were 1,049,437 (50.94%) wolves and 1,010,707 (49.06%) sheep as of today.

[hub]

Good posts by Lucky1 and Huntrights. I like what  you both said.   

[Curly]

 

 

[csaaphill]

So the lesson here is that Democracy is bad?

YES! 
Because were a Republic Not a Democracy at least that is how they orginally set us to be.
That is why so many quotes against Democracy because it goes this way where the the mob rules!
I fully beleive in my investigation on this subject they knew these day's would come and we would eventually turn to Democracy rather than a Republic.

[csaaphill]

I heard that interview while I was working yesterday. The whole thing just made me cringe. The pro gun movement needs to invest some time and money into a decent PR rep if they're going to help public image. Gavin did far more damage in that 3 minutes than anyone could have expected from either side of the debate. I mean honestly, stating that you'll defend your self with a firearm from any criminal after explaining how the government officials are criminals? These are not the people I want representing me or my interests!

I am not against a rally or protest, but this one is already making us look bad.

Getting a bunch of angry gun owners together in an act of protest and encouraging them to bring their guns is just a recipe for disaster and confrontation. The reason any social movement is successful is because it plays to peoples' emotions. The Anti gun movement is successful because they play to everyone's sense of humanity. The Pro gun movement feeds off of the fear and anger of the pro gun supporters. Just look at the tactics used by the NRA. Fear and anger will never help this cause.

I wish everyone would just understand the difference between enemies and opponents. There are enemies in wars and opponents in ideological disagreements. The gun debate is just that, a debate, not a war. The anti gun groups are not enemies to be threatened or defeated. They are simply opponents to be converted and persuaded.

Andrew

The anti gun groups are not enemies BULL they are traitors and should be dealt with as such!
Don't think for one moment that they don't count us as such for they do! Moms who demand action have sated that anytime they see a person with a gun they will either shoot or call the cops and have us killed. It's called swating.
SO they do that stuff you bet they are the enemy. Civil disobedience is always the first step to any good freedom movement.
I am appauled at how many want to turn tail and run on this and defeat a civil disobedience movement even before they get started.

[huntrights]

2 things liberals do NOT believe in......
 God, and unintended consequences

http://dailycaller.com/2014/11/19/museum-will-remove-world-world-ii-era-rifles-because-of-new-state-law/

 This museum is complying.....

 
Another unintended consequence of a bad law.  The supporters of I-594 would have most likely called this situation just a "hypothetical" situation that is very unlikely to occur and not the intent of the law.  OOPS! Or, is this and other ominous "unintended consequences" the actual intention of the law?  The citizens of Washington were obviously misled by billionaire-funded propaganda; unfortunately the people that voted for I-594 bought into the propaganda hook, line, and sinker.

One has to wonder when future initiative-driven bad laws funded by billionaires and their carefully crafted propaganda will result in book burning and censoring, or worse.  Think about how Hitler gradually took away the rights of the German people with the promises of a better life for all.  We all know where that led.

"Ill-conceived Washington State Background Check Initiative Already Causing Absurd Outcomes"
http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/articles/2014/11/ill-conceived-washington-state-background-check-initiative-already-causing-absurd-outcomes.aspx

Excerpt from the article:
"NRA is committed to doing everything we can to fight I-594 on behalf of our members in Washington State. We are already in discussions about legislative remedies to the most onerous provisions. As always, we will continue to work in whatever arena is realistic – legislative, legal or political – to address the concerns of our members."

Please support the NRA by joining or upgrading your NRA membership.  Also, please donate when you can.  They are fighting for us.

National Rifle Association (NRA)
http://home.nra.org/
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

[csaaphill]

2 things liberals do NOT believe in......
 God, and unintended consequences

http://dailycaller.com/2014/11/19/museum-will-remove-world-world-ii-era-rifles-because-of-new-state-law/

 This museum is complying.....

 
Another unintended consequence of a bad law.  The supporters of I-594 would have most likely called this situation just a "hypothetical" situation that is very unlikely to occur and not the intent of the law.  OOPS! Or, is this and other ominous "unintended consequences" the actual intention of the law?  The citizens of Washington were obviously misled by billionaire-funded propaganda; unfortunately the people that voted for I-594 bought into the propaganda hook, line, and sinker.

One has to wonder when future initiative-driven bad laws funded by billionaires and their carefully crafted propaganda will result in book burning and censoring, or worse.  Think about how Hitler gradually took away the rights of the German people with the promises of a better life for all.  We all know where that led.

"Ill-conceived Washington State Background Check Initiative Already Causing Absurd Outcomes"
http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/articles/2014/11/ill-conceived-washington-state-background-check-initiative-already-causing-absurd-outcomes.aspx

Excerpt from the article:
"NRA is committed to doing everything we can to fight I-594 on behalf of our members in Washington State. We are already in discussions about legislative remedies to the most onerous provisions. As always, we will continue to work in whatever arena is realistic – legislative, legal or political – to address the concerns of our members."

Please support the NRA by joining or upgrading your NRA membership.  Also, please donate when you can.  They are fighting for us.

National Rifle Association (NRA)
http://home.nra.org/
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

as usual compromise Heck no I wont 'comply no matter what.
It's ok they are doing this good go for it but take out the law all the way not just fight some languages in it 
i say no don't comply cold dead hands should mean something not just a fancy statement!