to spay or not to spay...

[KFhunter]

man,  I like this little dog.  Everything thing is there for a fantastic dog.  I spayed the last one not knowing, but then she wasn't half the dog this one is hunting wise.

but I don't plan to trial or compete her, work schedule won't allow that.   Suppose I could let someone else do it.   If she was less enthusiastic I'd spay her no question.

 

[KFhunter]

she's due for her 1st cycle any minute,  gotta make my mind up.   I don't like to spay after a cycle.

[Houndhunter]

Just curious why, if you spay a dog, do you like doing it before they get their first heat?

[WAcoyotehunter]

I NEVER spay a dog before her first heat.  They tend to stop maturing when spayed too early.  Actually, for hyper dogs or dogs that struggle with focus I have found that having one litter helps them a bunch.

If I'm going to cut a male dog I do it YOUNG.... I don't want them knowing they're a male.  I absolutely hate spending the first ten minutes of a hunt watching a dog pee on every bush and tire around    

It seems to work for me.  I'm curious what others have found.

[Cougar Gold]

By spaying before the first heat, you can almost guarantee no cancer in the mammary glands. Chance of cancer increases significantly if you don't.

[Happy Gilmore]

spaying after a couple cycles is recommended by pretty much everything, vet and person i've ever spoken with regarding the subject.

One primary function is the hormones produced help allow/influence completion of brain, muscle and skeletal development. Another is the full development of the female parts which can be slightly changed after the first cycle. Slight inverted vulvas are typically corrected after a heat cycle which reduces future chances of UTI infections. It is also said cancer development is statistically lower the longer you wait to spay. especially if done after a couple years but, before they get too old.

[Happy Gilmore]

By spaying before the first heat, you can almost guarantee no cancer in the mammary glands. Chance of cancer increases significantly if you don't.

I have never read that it is reduced cancer if done "Before" the first heat cycle. I have read that long term intact females do have a higher rate of mammary cancer and a few studies have suggested that early spaying helps reduce the risk, no eliminate it. I have also read a few studies which suggest that spaying early in their "later" years reduces chances the most. i.e.- 6-8 years old. This is also the time cancer is most likely to first show an appearance in most larger/working breeds.

[AspenBud]

By spaying before the first heat, you can almost guarantee no cancer in the mammary glands. Chance of cancer increases significantly if you don't.

I have never read that it is reduced cancer if done "Before" the first heat cycle. I have read that long term intact females do have a higher rate of mammary cancer and a few studies have suggested that early spaying helps reduce the risk, no eliminate it. I have also read a few studies which suggest that spaying early in their "later" years reduces chances the most. i.e.- 6-8 years old. This is also the time cancer is most likely to first show an appearance in most larger/working breeds.

I can tell you straight up that this is preached in every veterinary school these days. I can also say I think it's mainly pushed as a way to get people to spay their dogs so as to keep the dog population under control.

Frankly I'm not convinced either side it right. Spaying and neutering a dog is really a matter of what works best for a given owner, dog, and situation.

But in support of the argument for not spaying or neutering, it's my understanding that Europeans rarely have the procedures done, yet they don't have as big of a dog over population problem. I doubt they sweat mammary cancer much too.

[KFhunter]

hrm,  glad I started this thread.

The vets preach to bring the dog in before a cycle and if you don't they charge more money.  I don't know why they'd charge almost double if spayed after a cycle?   My main concern was cancer, last dog cost me a small fortune with cancer like problems.

I can certainly buy into the maturing thing

[ghosthunter]

I have had only two female labs. Both I had spayed at around 6 months or so. I just asked the vet what he thought and went with it. When I was looking for my first pup I talked to several guys who had been urged to let the dog have one litter.
Without exception each told me that they wished they had not because after the litters the dogs hunting drive was not there as it was before. They hunted but without the strong drive.

On the other hand I know many who spayed with no litter and there dogs hunt like crazy. Including the two I had.

Happy and Wild have way more experience than I do.  This is just what I experienced. 

[Ridgeratt]

I have let my females go through a heat cycle before if I choose to spay them. We did have a pup who ended up with staph infection as a pup. Wife nursed him back to health and told me if he made it she was going to keep him. He was cut before his nugget's dropped and always had a High pitched bark that sounded like finger nails on a chalk board. But it was the wife's dog. 

When I first saw the thread I figured it was a poll about Bobcat!!

[jetjockey]

I have had only two female labs. Both I had spayed at around 6 months or so. I just asked the vet what he thought and went with it. When I was looking for my first pup I talked to several guys who had been urged to let the dog have one litter.
Without exception each told me that they wished they had not because after the litters the dogs hunting drive was not there as it was before. They hunted but without the strong drive.

On the other hand I know many who spayed with no litter and there dogs hunt like crazy. Including the two I had.

Happy and Wild have way more experience than I do.  This is just what I experienced. 

This was a real concern for me when we bred our brittany since we trial her.  The trainer made it very clear that after the litter was whelped, the pups would get weened at 3 weeks, and my female would be put right back to work.  He said that he's seen too many good females have a litter of pups, and decide they like being moms more than field trial dogs.  That's why he weens so quickly after the litter is born.  After my females litter, she had the best fall trial season of her career, so she didn't slow down any. But I was very concerned about it.

[Happy Gilmore]

the best Chesapeake in the Nation and one which will be in the hall of fame was running in the 8th series of the National Open shortly after whelping a litter.

There are all sorts of wives tales out there and most are just that. Some stuff you hear from trainers is the worst too.  Few good trainers have time to deal with puppies. They are on the road, traveling to trials or moving about training grounds all year.

[AspenBud]

I have had only two female labs. Both I had spayed at around 6 months or so. I just asked the vet what he thought and went with it. When I was looking for my first pup I talked to several guys who had been urged to let the dog have one litter.
Without exception each told me that they wished they had not because after the litters the dogs hunting drive was not there as it was before. They hunted but without the strong drive.

On the other hand I know many who spayed with no litter and there dogs hunt like crazy. Including the two I had.

Happy and Wild have way more experience than I do.  This is just what I experienced. 

This was a real concern for me when we bred our brittany since we trial her.  The trainer made it very clear that after the litter was whelped, the pups would get weened at 3 weeks, and my female would be put right back to work.  He said that he's seen too many good females have a litter of pups, and decide they like being moms more than field trial dogs.  That's why he weens so quickly after the litter is born.  After my females litter, she had the best fall trial season of her career, so she didn't slow down any. But I was very concerned about it.

Apparently these dogs didn't get that message...

http://www.hifivekennels.com/dams.htm

https://harddrivingbev.wordpress.com/

I don't know about when the pups were weened but these dogs, and there are many many others out there, didn't slow down a bit.

[jetjockey]

You only hear about the ones that didnt slowdown.  I know of several females that were never the same after their first litter, and I know several that haven't been affected at all.  Since there are few females that trial to begin with, you don't hear about the ones that fade out.   I was fortunate, my female didn't slow down after her first litter.  But there are many that do.

[WRL]

Current research suggests that multiple types of cancer are REDUCED by spaying after 12 months of age along with a reduction in continence later in life and a reduction in ACL injuries. The lack of hormones DOES affect multiple health issues including skeletal growth etc.

If a bitch is spayed after the first heat cycle or two, her chances of mammary cancer are not increased  by much more than a percentage of 1%.

I would recommend spaying at about the 15 month age. MOST females will not have come into season by then.

WRL

[KFhunter]

uggg -  she's in heat


was acting stupid for almost a week so I knew it was coming,  3 days into it so far not too bad.  I kennel her so no blood all over the house and no chance of a male getting to her.


Britt's pretty typical for heat cycles?  21 days or so of heat and 6-8 months of heat free freedom?

[buglebuster]

My 1 1/2 year old black lab female is in heat as well, her 2nd heat. I also keep her in a kennel, but had her loose in the yard on sunday. I went in the house for a bit and come back outside. About 45 min later I noticed she wasn't around, she got out somehow. Walked down the driveway and found her hanging out with a black male mutt! Praying for the best but preparing for the worst...

[KFhunter]

DOH!

[jetjockey]

uggg -  she's in heat


was acting stupid for almost a week so I knew it was coming,  3 days into it so far not too bad.  I kennel her so no blood all over the house and no chance of a male getting to her.


Britt's pretty typical for heat cycles?  21 days or so of heat and 6-8 months of heat free freedom?

They are all different, but what you said is pretty typical.  My brit hasn't come in since her litter, which was last July.  That's why I had to bring her into heat to breed her.  If we breed her again, I'm sure I'll have to bring her into heat again.   BTW.  Doggy diapers work well when they are in season.  The dogs look stupid, but they work when the dog is in the  house.

[AspenBud]

My 1 1/2 year old black lab female is in heat as well, her 2nd heat. I also keep her in a kennel, but had her loose in the yard on sunday. I went in the house for a bit and come back outside. About 45 min later I noticed she wasn't around, she got out somehow. Walked down the driveway and found her hanging out with a black male mutt! Praying for the best but preparing for the worst...

I believe a vet might be able to supply you with something to abort that.

[Holg3107]

If your not going to breed what would you not spay your dog? Also sounds like you aren't going to be running in any competitions so this is just a house / hunting dog. Having a dog that is not spayed is a pain in the butt and not worth the worry/hastle as far as I'm concerned. 

[KFhunter]

My 1 1/2 year old black lab female is in heat as well, her 2nd heat. I also keep her in a kennel, but had her loose in the yard on sunday. I went in the house for a bit and come back outside. About 45 min later I noticed she wasn't around, she got out somehow. Walked down the driveway and found her hanging out with a black male mutt! Praying for the best but preparing for the worst...

I believe a vet might be able to supply you with something to abort that.

I'll keep that in mind as well if something happens

[KFhunter]

If your not going to breed what would you not spay your dog? Also sounds like you aren't going to be running in any competitions so this is just a house / hunting dog. Having a dog that is not spayed is a pain in the butt and not worth the worry/hastle as far as I'm concerned. 

I've always spayed before 1st cycle, but there's a lot of pro's and cons on doing that.  I wanted to see if she matured and developed better, I had a lot of problems with my last dog which started not long after spaying.  Probably not related though, but who knows    Had a high fever then started developing lesions all over, more fevers, more lesions rinse repeat another large vet bill.... and eventually death at 5 years old.

I think the early spay is PETA/HSUS propaganda, lot of pseudo science, warnings of cancer, cheaper to spay etc etc.. before 1st cycle - all junk science.
The dog should develop better if it has a proper puberty. 

In the livestock world there's pretty big differences in steers/barrows and other neutered animals - it's got to hold true for dogs even females.

[AspenBud]

If your not going to breed what would you not spay your dog? Also sounds like you aren't going to be running in any competitions so this is just a house / hunting dog. Having a dog that is not spayed is a pain in the butt and not worth the worry/hastle as far as I'm concerned. 

I've always spayed before 1st cycle, but there's a lot of pro's and cons on doing that.  I wanted to see if she matured and developed better, I had a lot of problems with my last dog which started not long after spaying.  Probably not related though, but who knows    Had a high fever then started developing lesions all over, more fevers, more lesions rinse repeat another large vet bill.... and eventually death at 5 years old.

I think the early spay is PETA/HSUS propaganda, lot of pseudo science, warnings of cancer, cheaper to spay etc etc.. before 1st cycle - all junk science.
The dog should develop better if it has a proper puberty. 

In the livestock world there's pretty big differences in steers/barrows and other neutered animals - it's got to hold true for dogs even females.

Some of the obvious musculoskeletal differences... less muscle mass, longer legs, etc. I've had all of my dogs fixed if they didn't already come that way to me.

The next dog I won't, at least not for a couple of years. I don't hunt my dogs as hard and often as some but there are times I demand everything they have and I feel a dog that has been allowed to fill out as it should is better able to handle those physical demands.

Most dogs in Europe are not fixed. People somehow manage to live with them.

[KFhunter]

I lucked out, she only had about 3-4 days of light leakage,  she's still in her heat cycle and still swollen back there but other than the bullseye under her tail all seems normal.

[bearpaw]

My 1 1/2 year old black lab female is in heat as well, her 2nd heat. I also keep her in a kennel, but had her loose in the yard on sunday. I went in the house for a bit and come back outside. About 45 min later I noticed she wasn't around, she got out somehow. Walked down the driveway and found her hanging out with a black male mutt! Praying for the best but preparing for the worst...

I believe a vet might be able to supply you with something to abort that.

Take her to the vet asap and they can give her something to abort, but I'm almost positive they told me there is a time limit when I had it done several years ago when one of my females accidentally got bred. At least call and ask.