Thumb safety - good idea for a rookie?

[Band]

I see that most folks have a strong opinion against having a thumb safety on their handgun but I'm on the fence.  I've decided to get an M&P Shield in 9mm but I'm trying to decide on the thumb safety issue before buying.  Im wondering what the prevailing wisdom is on this issue for a relative newbie with handguns.  Advice, please.

[Zardoz]

In a high stress situation will you remember the safety?  It's all about one thing........PRACTICE.   

[one shot kill]

None of my carry guns have safeties and never will, for the exact reason zardoz gave.

[skeeter 20i]

The shield has more of a double action trigger so it takes more effort to pull than the trigger of a single action semi such as a glock.  That  being said i personally dont have any with a manual safety but I don't  see anything wrong with them if you train and become profecient with what you decide  to carry.  Its a personal choice about what you are comfortable using. 

 I would recommend you shoot a single action semi, a double/single and then a double action and pick the one you are most cocomfortable with,  then practice practice practice.

I dont think one is worse or better than the other, how many 1911's are there out there  and how many glocks etc are out there.  They each have their place.

[NW-GSP]

I have no use for a safety on a pistol, my finger is the safety.

[HawkCreek]

Ya because it's Soooooooooo hard to train to flip off a safety.

Buy the one you want and shoot the heck out of it until you're proficient.

[coachcw]

I personally like a safety for the 99 % of the time your using the weapon . I had a tough time on my berretta watching the hammer fall but one your use to it its second nature , the thumbs flips the de cocker as you come up just takes practice .

[police women of America]

I say safety. I'm actually going to get the same gun in a .40 caliber in a couple months. Its better to just turn a little safety then have a kid get there hands on it and pull the trigger 

do you have to get a gun smith to install the safety or do you just buy one with a safety?

[Band]

I say safety. I'm actually going to get the same gun in a .40 caliber in a couple months. Its better to just turn a little safety then have a kid get there hands on it and pull the trigger 

do you have to get a gun smith to install the safety or do you just buy one with a safety?

The Shield is available with or without the safety, I believe for the same price.  For some reason this gun is heavily discounted as of late.  I'm finding it available from several places online for about $350.

[NW-GSP]

Statistically guns with safety's have more accidental discharges then ones without. Obviously that is due to human error and people becoming dependent on the guns safety instead of following basic fire arm safety rules.

[magnumb]

I have no use for a safety on a pistol, my finger is the safety.

My brain is.........

[police women of America]

I say safety. I'm actually going to get the same gun in a .40 caliber in a couple months. Its better to just turn a little safety then have a kid get there hands on it and pull the trigger 

do you have to get a gun smith to install the safety or do you just buy one with a safety?

The Shield is available with or without the safety, I believe for the same price.  For some reason this gun is heavily discounted as of late.  I'm finding it available from several places online for about $350.

thanks! I  have been wondering about that for a while.

[Bofire]

  When you decide to sell the shield and get a 1911` it comes with a thumb safety.LOL
Carl

[magnumb]

Ya because it's Soooooooooo hard to train to flip off a safety.

Buy the one you want and shoot the heck out of it until you're proficient.

No.......you're completely right.  It isn't hard at all to train someone to 'flip off a safety'.

But more importantly and what is likely the most important task of all when being taught and while teaching responsible firearms ownership/possesion, is safe gun handling.......while worn and while not.

If the above is done properly and the 'student' truly embraces all aspects of said training, a thumb safety is of no use, in fact, it can be detrimental to getting your firearm into action ASAP, albeit, by a second or less.  Even though rare and unlikely to ever occur to 99.9% of us, who doesn't believe, and rightfully so, that in such dire circumstances, that every second doesn't count....?   

If a person takes on the responsibility of gun ownership, he/she should then become as 'proficient' in that use as possible, as you say.  I completely agree and there should be little argument, otherwise.  Practice makes one as perfect.....as possible, because practice does not make perfect.....ever.  There is nothing that a gold medal winner has ever done where they don't think that they could have done it just a bit better or faster and as far as practice goes.......what people practice more?

Even the most practiced, proficient and confident members/gun owners on HW will go through the 'panic' stage when confronted with any situation that could lead to drawing their weapon in self defense.  And really.........what training/practice can really and truly elicit those kind of surreal, dramatic, heart stopping emotions from a person hoping to learn even through the most current training on just exactly how to effectively deal with just such a generally fast moving and very potentially lethal situation?  It's a bit like expecting someone not to scream, yell, jump, cringe, jump away or have their heart beat jump 50x's normal rate when you scare them.  Can you moderate that.....perhaps, but not enough to not already have affected your response time........no way. 

Training helps immensely and I promote seeking out such training, but unless one has been there, done that (and even then each such encounter is different)....we can't possibly know exactly how we will react.  But we do know that placing one more 'factor' into this unexpected, horrific, terrifying, completely foreign and dire situation, might very likely delay the immediate response that our minds now tell us that we need to make......and right now.  And when that one additional 'factor' is a 'mechanism', one that takes both a mental and physical moment and effort or two to employ, is that not an unnecessary impediment to being able to immediately satisfy what your mind is screaming at you to do? 

Do I think that everyone is able to learn to disengage a safety....yep, I would certainly hope so anyway.  Do I think that in most cases, when all is said and done, that there was time to disengage a safety?  Yep.....likely so.  Do I think that gun owners should learn to use firearms both with and without safeties.....yep, no different than teaching a young driver to drive an auto and manual vehicle (if you can find a manual anymore).  Who knows if/when the only gun available to you might contain a safety or not.....it's a prudent move to learn both.

As with every driver on the interstate, every gun owner is his/her own person.  We all react differently to the same situations, sometimes much differently.  But one thing is irrefutable and is always true no matter who we're talking about or what the situation.  Our brains always engage before every single move that we make, whether as a positive or negative result.  Every step we take, every time we pass another vehicle, everytime we change the channel, look left, look right.........no matter what, we are guided by what our brains tell us to do.  It is our brains that keep us safe and most times it does that well.  It is therefore our brains that are our safeties and no better safety exists.

You can have 10 safeties on every firearm, but their only use would then be to slow down what your brain has already told you to do.....by 10x's.  If your immediate situation has convinced you (your brain) that you need to react as quickly and decisively as possible, the decision your brain made already went through every possible alternative, scenario and possible result known to you.  That same thinning out of options and choosing the most prudent (safe) approach is something we do countless times each day....without ever questioning ourselves.  When to start breaking prior to that stop light, entering heavy traffic considerations, etc., ......all those things happen automatically.

If and when a life threatening situation occurs, our brains don't immediately bail on us and abandon us.  It kicks into high gear, does it's best to deal with what is likely the most stressful and adrenaline producing situation you have ever encountered, filters through what you've been taught and accepted as the best approach, your muscles then engage to satisfy your brains goals and the cards are then dealt.  It is the natural progression of how we have survived that long, what our training and practicing has hopefully afforded us and we are carrying out our best plan to be able to survive that immediate situation.  If our weapon is drawn because we have definitively decided that the situation calls for the use of deadly force, it is then necessary to put our response in play ASAP.  There is no fidgiting around, no I hope that he/she doesn't shoot/stab me/choke me/beat me first......your internal safety, your best and most faithful safety, your brain, has determined that this is the most prudent way to go.  A mechanical safety, in that scenario, serves no useful purpose.  It does, however, delay, no matter how long or short, your efforts to reduce or completely stop any aggression made towards you.

No matter how practiced one is with a gun that employs a safety, he/she will still need to disengage that safety in their attempt to achieve their goal of stopping the aggression and being made safe.  Given the most heightened adrenalin rush that one can possibly experience, no matter how practiced and confident, that external, mechanized safety can't help but be more of an imposition and time consuming (if done exactly right while keeping the same grip as an added challenge for most) than a firearm without.  At no point do you have to fire your weapon given your particular circumstances, with or without a safety attached.  Your brain makes that final decision as well.  But what is certainly true is that sometime during that encounter and after you have drawn your weapon, if it employs a safety, you will have to disengage that safety in order to fire your weapon.  That involves both movement and a sound that your adversary may be either able to see or hear.....or both.  To expect that you will disengage your safety the millisecond before you decide to fire is neither sane nor a recipe for a longer life.  Outside of alerting said adversary of your next move, disengaging your safety cannot but help even slightly, at best, neccessarily move your intended POI as your thumb is no less important in a proper grip than your trigger finger.  None of these factors and the time and movement/noise spent to better position yourself for the shot with a gun that employs a safety needs to be considered on firearms without safeties.  The moment your brain says go, it's out the tube.  No movement, no noise, no slight grip adjustment to disengage the safety.....nothing more than the bare minimum of effort (mental and physical) needed to exact the result you deserve in such a situation.  No different if you decided to carry a firearm with a safety full time with the safety disengaged.  Your firearm then resembles a non-safety firearm except that you also have a metal mechanism protruding from your firearm that serves no purpose whatsoever other than to get in your way.....no matter how slightly.  A smooth firearm, less safety, cannot help but make for an easier draw.  Yep, it is somewhat of a non-issue for some, but gun manufacturers don't advertise that they produce their firearms with more rough edges and unnecessary external parts than their competitors in an attempt to sell more guns, at least, from what I've seen.  Actually, quite the opposite seems to be true.

As far as the very real issues of storage, kids, people in general and having access to a firearm with or without a safety......that is the responsibility of the gun owner....period.  How, when, where gun owners deal with this issue is their total responsibility and unfortunately, young kids and others do pay for gun owners irresponsible actions.  But given that we are all left to our own best practices in that regard, the horrors of making bad, irresponsible and regrettable decisions justifiably affects many, but as we know, we are all painted with the same brush when such incidents occur.

If the ownership/use/storage of a firearm is not easy and conveinent for you, don't own one.  If you can't figure out a way to secure your weapon safely while at the same time schooling your kids on the important aspects of gun safety that all children and adults alike should be aware of.......you've got choices to make.  And no.....getting rid of your kids isn't one of them....... .

Lots of differently designed firearms out there to choose from.......     I'm glad that some companies do offer the handguns with and without safeties.  It is important that the gun owner feel both confident and proficient with their firearms, especially those intended to be their self defense weapon of choice.

Be safe and become proficient no matter the firearm you choose...... .

 



     

   

[JJB11B]

I agree with Mag. I learned to use a pistol on a Berretta M9. I have no use for a safety at all.

[HawkCreek]

I agree with what you nearly all you say, Magnumb, but we'll have to agree to disagree about external safeties on a pistol.
I had the safety on in every structure I ever entered while deployed (and yes even involving an incident with an M9). The safety didn't slow me down, safety comes off as the gun comes up. If someone isn't willing to put that much effort into training then I question how worried they actually are. I too own guns both with and without an external safety, haven't noticed that it makes much difference.
Kind of like 01 or long range peep, or 9mm vs. .45 it's one of those debates that will never end.

[magnumb]

I will never argue the fact that training is key.  You obviously need to take your training seriously, as did I.  USMC, 'Nam '69-'71, 28 years LEO retired.  I certainly 'get it'......  .

You and I are and were, necessarily, better trained than most and are/were better prepared than most civilians not having had such experiences.  We are not the norm........haven't been since I was 18, in that regard........

I do wish you the best in any and all future endeavors and most importantly, I sincerely want to thank you for your service HawkCreek.

Semper Fi.................no matter our service affiliations or our opinions......


Oh....and BTW.....the 9mm...........

[kbrowne14]

Mass, mass, mass majority of all gun owners go to the range and shoot statically on a line.  They are not allowed to draw from the holster, they load the mag at a table behind them, then take the full mag to the gun which is sitting on some sort of table in their bay, load the gun, shoot, drop the mag, drop the gun, and go back to the table. 

It is in my opinion, and my own experience that if you don't have thousands of repetitions with drawing, sweeping a safety, and engaging a target, in a gunfight or stressful situation where your gun is needed, you WILL NOT sweep a safety.  The average gun owner, will not sweep a safety in a gunfight.  If they think they will, they are wrong.  If he is going to be an average gun owner that won't train for thousands of reps of sweeping a safety on a presentation drill, he should get a gun without a safety. 

I have seen so many people get up on a firing line, draw their pistol, and click, they think they have a malfunction, they rack the slide, or look at the gun, then click again, then they realized the safety was on.  If you want a safety, train to use it.  If you don't think you will train to get thousands of reps on it, then get a pistol with no safety.  Don't get a gun with a safety because you think its safer.   

[HawkCreek]

Oh....and BTW.....the 9mm...........

HaHaHa! Well just to keep the pot stirred my most carried sidearm the last two years has been a Glock... in 10mm...

Semper Fi

[boneaddict]

Safety.  Just shoot the dang thing once in awhile. 

Some of you act like you are in combat situations 99% of the time.   99.9% of all situations can be remedied without escalating to pulling a piece.   In that .1% of the time, you better have the nerves and mindset to be able to flick a switch.  I'm surprised more of you don't shoot yourselves in the foot. 

[mountainman]

Safety.  Just shoot the dang thing once in awhile. 

Some of you act like you are in combat situations 99% of the time.   99.9% of all situations can be remedied without escalating to pulling a piece.   In that .1% of the time, you better have the nerves and mindset to be able to flick a switch.  I'm surprised more of you don't shoot yourselves in the foot. 

[Bofire]

  ahhh reality!!
Carl

[magnumb]

Oh....and BTW.....the 9mm...........

HaHaHa! Well just to keep the pot stirred my most carried sidearm the last two years has been a Glock... in 10mm...

Semper Fi

And mine.....the G23 from waaaaaay back when first introduced.....in .40 cal. - for what, the last 20-25 years?  I have added two G27's when they also were first introduced and oftentimes interchange my daily carry with this subcompact model......and in the last 2 weeks, I added two G43's, as well.  I haven't had a chance to truly wring them out, but will soon be doing so and might give my layman's perceptions of any pro's and/or con's notable to mention. 

You only gave me the choices of 9mm or .45 cal earlier, so I did my very best given the immense pressure I was under at that time......

[magnumb]

Safety.  Just shoot the dang thing once in awhile. 

Some of you act like you are in combat situations 99% of the time.   99.9% of all situations can be remedied without escalating to pulling a piece.   In that .1% of the time, you better have the nerves and mindset to be able to FLICK A SWITCH.  I'm surprised more of you don't shoot yourselves in the foot.

I had already mentioned that the chances of a potentially deadly encounter was very, very minimal, at best, so that particular aspect had already looooong been established and uncontroverted.  What the focus then became was what other members feelings/thoughts/idea's and preferences were in regards to their personal need and/or desire in choosing to carry a firearm with an external safety.....or not.

Let's take any Glock and a series 80, 1911.  Both are particularly well thought of and are likely the most popular designed/manufacturered handguns available to the 'average' gun owner.  Both have 3 safeties.  Glocks have a trigger, firing pin and drop safety.  The series 80 1911 also has a firing pin safety, but unlike the Glock, it also incorporates a grip safety and a thumb safety.  Fair enough....?

Most every car accident, whether deadly or not, involves the inability of a person to react to their specific circumstances quickly enough.  That is why almost every car company on the planet is either coming out with their own version of systems designed to react before you do to immediate dangers while driving or they are frantically attempting to design such a program.  These will not be accessories in a few years, these systems will become standard equipment eventually on all cars as did anti-lock brakes, seat belts and airbags.  Why....?

As I stated before, every person's brain, unless completely blindsided and totally unaware of an impending danger, immediately registers first that they are in harm's way.  Their brain then immediately locks in on what efforts they can immediately employ to either end or minimize that particular situation.  Then.....no matter how many times one has been in a similar situation, your reaction time can still only be as fast as you can physically accomplish the task.  Common sense...not rocket science.

Add confusion, extreme fear, a totally foreign interaction with a menacing individual and your innate unwillingness to hurt or to take another one's life which then further makes for even more of a delayed response, no matter how short, any and all other physical tasks that will necessarily need to be addressed prior to you being able carrying out your goal of keeping you and/or yours safe......all of these factors will make your reaction time longer.  It is simple math, physics and most of all.....human nature that makes us just that bit more vulnerable, no matter how practiced that we are and how much more confident that we have become. 

If one can employ a system that produces the same effect as another system, but does it faster while also expending less physical and mental efforts to do so, what could possibly be the downside of that...? 

An external thumb safety, IMHO, serves absolutely no purpose.  It is an external mechanism that makes the firearm less user friendly by protruding (no matter how much or little) off of the frame, makes for more moving parts (not a recipe for more reliability), adds to the overall weight of the firearm and most importantly........is more of a detriment to the user than to the potential 'receiver', given the obvious fact that it exists on the frame of your gun, your practice regiment calls for you to have to disengage that thumb safety prior to moving on to the next step (no matter how fast and proficient at doing so that you may have become) and just because this 'mechanism' exists on that firearm which you freely chose over other designs, it now has become that one more thing that you must disengage and execute perfectly and quickly prior to even starting to attempt the final step in order to minimizie or eliminate your immediate threat.

If our reaction times and their subsequent physical response's were enhanced even slightly, there would be far fewer vehicle accidents, more home runs, less dropped dishes, more punches missed and landed and so on.  But we can only react as fast as our mental and physical qualities allow us to react.  Certainly training helps and once again, I advocate strongly for such training.  But as the vehicle companies are doing and for the exact same reasons, our safety and well being are tied directly to the amount of time it takes to react to dangerous and potentially deadly situations.

IMHO.....the addition of a 'mechanism' that serves no obvious purpose but to delay a more immediate response to a potentially deadly situation, seems counterproductive.....at best.

"Flick a switch", as was so kindly offered as another option above....................or don't.  Why not take a second or two right now and 'flick a switch' on any wall and then not flick that same switch..  Which one took more time and hand movement......? 

Consider this as well..........when/if you do participate in this 'test'.  You are likely right now in the confines of your very safe home, everyone in your home is trustworthy and you can count on each other in all respects, your dog does his guard dog thing reasonably well, it's daylight out and you're not feeling vulnerable in the least.  Not a single feeling of the aforementioned 'normal' day to day feelings of being safe, secure, relaxed and calm will exist when and if confronted with a potentially deadly encounter......none.  Those feelings will be replaced with totally the exact opposite feelings......and some that you never could have imagined possible. 

A standard household light switch is approx. the same size as a thumb safety.  How many times have you reached for/slapped at a light switch in your own home that you've 'flicked on' easily thousands of times before and failed and you had to take another stab at it...?  Actually, how many times have you taken more than one swipe at it...?  I know that I have done that alot, but perhaps I'm just more uncoordinated than most, but I don't think so.  And since I'm all in here.....I've even switched on the light switch and then simultaneously and quite unintentionally switched it off again.  Now I'm sure that I'm the only one who has done that.  I'd call thousands of times doing something over and over, anything, being pretty well practiced.  Soooo....is it really fair and not being pretentious to assume that it is so easy for everyone to just "flick a switch" when your world has suddenly just turned into the biggest nightmare of your life....?  I don't think so. 

As always......good to have all sorts of choices.....

 



 

[NW-GSP]

Magnum I could not have said it better.

I have been hunting upland and waterfowl for 19 years and I always keep the safety on while hunting and a couple of times every season I forget to switch the safety off. Since it is a hunting situation it does not bother me that I missed a shot due to me forgetting the safety. If it was a situation where I was trying to defend myself with a pistol it would make the difference between life and death.

[magnumb]

Magnum I could not have said it better.

I have been hunting upland and waterfowl for 19 years and I always keep the safety on while hunting and a couple of times every season I forget to switch the safety off. Since it is a hunting situation it does not bother me that I missed a shot due to me forgetting the safety. If it was a situation where I was trying to defend myself with a pistol it would make the difference between life and death.

 .....good points and I've quite unintentionally saved my own share of many birds from a sudden demise in just that same manner.. 

Yep......chukars and mallards are not family.......

[gallion_t]

I didn't read through some of the longer posts but to me its a simple answer. Get the one with the safety. Nothing says you have to have the safety on at all times. To me its better to have the option and not use it then want the option and not have it.

[magnumb]

I didn't read through some of the longer posts but to me its a simple answer. Get the one with the safety. Nothing says you have to have the safety on at all times. To me its better to have the option and not use it then want the option and not have it.

That is certainly an option and perhaps that approach works for many things, but IMHO.....not so much with my primary carry weapon...... . 

The 'Devil's Advocate' response...........a thumb safety, no matter how well it 'melts' into the gun, is still a useless protrusion if you never intend to use it.  You go down, your 'brand new to firearms' buddy that you have mentored remembers that you never employ a thumb safety, but that day you do, he grabs your handgun as additional support and must put it into action in a close range, 'right now' situation.  Oops........"just a second please, there's been some miscommunication"...... .  Or much more likely, you yourself choose to run with a safety on somedays (Monday, Wednesday, Sunday maybe...... ) and the remaining days, you go to safety off mode.  In other words, reading your hypothetical suggestion such as it is.......you have not committed or dedicated yourself to carry either way and that is neither wise nor a tactically sound approach to take when it involves your primary carry weapon......or any weapon.   

My point being.....why make any handgun a source of, 'I think that I'll improvise and just use it this way', instead of how it was designed to be used and also instead of just choosing the handgun with the design that you have total confidence in and feel comfortable using right from the get go....?. 

Why buy a much more highly technologically advanced camera than you can use when you only want to take pictures of your family in front of the hearth twice a year when you know that's exactly what you're going to do and no more....?  You likely don't and won't do that because who needs all those extra buttons and settings to take a simple picture...?  Those extra gadgets just become a further hinderance to your intended and simple goal........taking a picture.

Simplicity is not a bad thing, it is quite often the most reliable and efficient way to go.  Splash, flash, nostalgia and not nearly as simplistic does absolutely nothing for me.

So yes.......it is an option, but IMHO, not a prudent one.

Best of luck......

[Windwalker]

Wow, this thread has legs..



My take on it - personal preference. Your gun, do as you wish.
Shoot it and see if you like it.
If you get another M&P (or several more) make sure the safeties are the same.   

Proficiency and training is the key... and a bazillion repetitions to build good habits.

No "extra" safety's for me.

[6.8mmARHunter]

Do any revolvers have thumb safetys? Are they not safe?

I recently picked a 9mm shield with out the safety. There were several reasons behind this. I bought two other semi-auto pistols in the last year or so. They were named similarly, so I assumed they would operate similarly. One was stryker fire and the other was hammer fire (not really important...) But more importantly, they both had thumb safetys, one you pulled down to fire, the other you pushed up to fire. When I was shooting with my wife She was confused... Anyway, now there's no confusion, pull the gun out, then pull the trigger - Bang. Simple.

[magnumb]

Do any revolvers have thumb safetys? Are they not safe?

I recently picked a 9mm shield with out the safety. There were several reasons behind this. I bought two other semi-auto pistols in the last year or so. They were named similarly, so I assumed they would operate similarly. One was stryker fire and the other was hammer fire (not really important...) But more importantly, they both had thumb safetys, one you pulled down to fire, the other you pushed up to fire. When I was shooting with my wife sent was confused... Anyway, now there's no confusion, pull the gun, then pull the trigger. Simple.

" ahhh reality!!".........just seein' how that felt..... .

I was wondering the same thing in regards to there being any wheelguns with thumb safeties....?  If so, not sure there are too many....... .

I can't count the # of times I've heard, "buy a revolver, by far the simplist and most reliable gun one can own,".....or along those lines.... .  I still hear it.

It is certainly coincidental that such long standing sentiment has got such looooooong legs and revolvers, at least from what I know, don't employ safeties.

Who would have thought........

[JJB11B]

pretty soon you guys will have the option to buy releases with safeties 

[Miles]

Can't say that I've ever forgot to take off the safety in a hunting situation.  I never remember struggling to locate it either.  I definitely prefer to have it as a precaution.  I would bet they people who shoot frequently are just as fast with or without a safety.  As you are finding the target it's pretty easy to click off a safety...

[Bofire]

Time to stir this up a bit, since a 1911 comes with a safety, and it is the BEST self defense handgun there is, I go with safety!!!
Carl

[magnumb]

Time to stir this up a bit, since a 1911 comes with a safety, and it is the BEST self defense handgun there is, I go with safety!!!
Carl

I'd bite, but since I just had dinner........ .  I'm unpleasant, not stupid.....

I truly do embrace, 'to each, their own'.  Even you.....Bofire....

My Kimber Ultra Carry II gets alot of love .................................................................at the range....

[tgomez]

If i had a handgun loaded in my pocket with my hand on it, and you had one in your hand loaded, i could shoot you before you could me. It subconsciously takes .5 secounds for the human brain to react in this situation. I learned this in criminal justice/firearms class and it is true. Perfect practice makes perfect, learn to master reaction time, and in my opinion EVERY firearm should have a saftey with no exceptions.

[police women of America]

If i had a handgun loaded in my pocket with my hand on it, and you had one in your hand loaded, i could shoot you before you could me. It subconsciously takes .5 secounds for the human brain to react in this situation. I learned this in criminal justice/firearms class and it is true. Perfect practice makes perfect, learn to master reaction time, and in my opinion EVERY firearm should have a saftey with no exceptions.

I agree. Its more unsafe to not have a safety then to have them.

[NW-GSP]

If i had a handgun loaded in my pocket with my hand on it, and you had one in your hand loaded, i could shoot you before you could me. It subconsciously takes .5 secounds for the human brain to react in this situation. I learned this in criminal justice/firearms class and it is true. Perfect practice makes perfect, learn to master reaction time, and in my opinion EVERY firearm should have a saftey with no exceptions.

I agree. Its more unsafe to not have a safety then to have them.

Then why is it that statistically firearms with safetys have higher rates of negligent discharges?.
People become too reliant on safety's. I carry my side arm in a retention holster and have no need for a safety/ a safety only creates a higher chance of human error in a life or death situation. When you are in fight or flight mode you loose allot of your fine motor skills as in finger manipulation but you retain your large muscle group ability. How many stories have you heard about individuals recounting shooting someone in self defense and they can remember drawing their firearm but they have no idea how many times they have pulled the trigger.

[police women of America]

If i had a handgun loaded in my pocket with my hand on it, and you had one in your hand loaded, i could shoot you before you could me. It subconsciously takes .5 secounds for the human brain to react in this situation. I learned this in criminal justice/firearms class and it is true. Perfect practice makes perfect, learn to master reaction time, and in my opinion EVERY firearm should have a saftey with no exceptions.

I agree. Its more unsafe to not have a safety then to have them.

Then why is it that statistically firearms with safetys have higher rates of negligent discharges?.
People become too reliant on safety's. I carry my side arm in a retention holster and have no need for a safety/ a safety only creates a higher chance of human error in a life or death situation. When you are in fight or flight mode you loose allot of your fine motor skills as in finger manipulation but you retain your large muscle group ability. How many stories have you heard about individuals recounting shooting someone in self defense and they can remember drawing their firearm but they have no idea how many times they have pulled the trigger.

you NEVER trust a safety but statistics also show 60% or accidental deaths by a firearm are in the home because people leave their guns loaded no safety's and no locks so children and adults can be hurt because they don't know how to handle a firearm or they do and just make a mistake and the gun goes off. safeties don't always work that's why you should never depend on them but they do save life's.
Police officers have safeties but that never effects their ability to shoot in a fast situation. it only takes I little flick on and off to save a innocent persons life.

[magnumb]

you NEVER trust a safety but statistics also show 60% or accidental deaths by a firearm are in the home because people leave their guns loaded no safety's and no locks so children and adults can be hurt because they don't know how to handle a firearm or they do and just make a mistake and the gun goes off. safeties don't always work that's why you should never depend on them but they do save life's.
Police officers have safeties but that never effects their ability to shoot in a fast situation. it only takes I little flick on and off to save a innocent persons life.
[/quote]


"Police officers (weapons) have safeties" is a very all encompassing, blanket statement which is inaccurate  From every article that I have ever read and from what I have actually witnessed, LE weapons (to include the Federal level) across the US (and in many parts of the world) consist mainly of Glocks.....which has no external thumb safety.

So all of those AD's that, as you say, "they just make a mistake and the gun goes off", you are only attributing to guns without safeties.....?  That is, unfortunately, exactly what you said as the beginning of that sentence containing this particular quote purposefully and quite deliberately states, "people leave their guns loaded, no safeties and yada, yada, yada".  You are young and have more energy in your little finger than I have in my whole body, so I get the overall 'picture'.  My daughter was very opinionated, as well, and I very much loved her for the energy she brought to the table.  Eventually and as I would expect, one will need to bring a bit more than energy to the table and I have no doubt that you will...... .

I applaud your choice in careers and I also appreciate your desire to serve your community as you have evidently chosen to do.  However, in doing so, you will find that much of your job will be based around your ability to establish yourself as a credible person and officer, to your peers, your 'clients', the general public and while on the witness stand in a courtroom setting to the judge and jury.

Because of your lack of experience, due only to your youth and having no service time, it will be natural that you won't be the first person that your fellow officers will come to for guidance and or leadership.  Not your fault, it is no diffferent in any line of work.  Your time hopefully will come sooner than later......several years from now.....

But as the judge, jury and every field report will and should necessarily demand, as will those that you will eventually mentor, there is no place in either role where your emotional and personally preferred response trumps what you know to be true or for a fact (as they say).

Be true to your convictions and personal beliefs, but if you choose to share them with all others, leave yourself a little 'wiggle room'.  I'm still learning and I've many more years behind me than ahead of me.  I'm no less or more opinionated than many here and like many here, we have centuries of experience between us from which to draw from.  That in itself, is no assurance that any of us has learned anything all those years, but the odds are certainly higher...... .

Good luck to you, enjoy your youth and life and I wish you the best in your career,  Josie.....



   

[NW-GSP]

If i had a handgun loaded in my pocket with my hand on it, and you had one in your hand loaded, i could shoot you before you could me. It subconsciously takes .5 secounds for the human brain to react in this situation. I learned this in criminal justice/firearms class and it is true. Perfect practice makes perfect, learn to master reaction time, and in my opinion EVERY firearm should have a saftey with no exceptions.

I agree. Its more unsafe to not have a safety then to have them.

Then why is it that statistically firearms with safetys have higher rates of negligent discharges?.
People become too reliant on safety's. I carry my side arm in a retention holster and have no need for a safety/ a safety only creates a higher chance of human error in a life or death situation. When you are in fight or flight mode you loose allot of your fine motor skills as in finger manipulation but you retain your large muscle group ability. How many stories have you heard about individuals recounting shooting someone in self defense and they can remember drawing their firearm but they have no idea how many times they have pulled the trigger.

you NEVER trust a safety but statistics also show 60% or accidental deaths by a firearm are in the home because people leave their guns loaded no safety's and no locks so children and adults can be hurt because they don't know how to handle a firearm or they do and just make a mistake and the gun goes off. safeties don't always work that's why you should never depend on them but they do save life's.
Police officers have safeties but that never effects their ability to shoot in a fast situation. it only takes I little flick on and off to save a innocent persons life.

That is really a assumption to say that police officers have safety's, the department I worked for used S&W M&P pistols that did not have safety's and I can also not think of any other department my friends work for that have pistols with safety's. 
Either way yes you are right it only! Takes a second to take a safety off. FBI statistics are that the average police shootout lasts 3-5 seconds. So when seconds count I do not want to waste even one when my life depends on it.

[police women of America]

If i had a handgun loaded in my pocket with my hand on it, and you had one in your hand loaded, i could shoot you before you could me. It subconsciously takes .5 secounds for the human brain to react in this situation. I learned this in criminal justice/firearms class and it is true. Perfect practice makes perfect, learn to master reaction time, and in my opinion EVERY firearm should have a saftey with no exceptions.

I agree. Its more unsafe to not have a safety then to have them.

Then why is it that statistically firearms with safetys have higher rates of negligent discharges?.
People become too reliant on safety's. I carry my side arm in a retention holster and have no need for a safety/ a safety only creates a higher chance of human error in a life or death situation. When you are in fight or flight mode you loose allot of your fine motor skills as in finger manipulation but you retain your large muscle group ability. How many stories have you heard about individuals recounting shooting someone in self defense and they can remember drawing their firearm but they have no idea how many times they have pulled the trigger.

you NEVER trust a safety but statistics also show 60% or accidental deaths by a firearm are in the home because people leave their guns loaded no safety's and no locks so children and adults can be hurt because they don't know how to handle a firearm or they do and just make a mistake and the gun goes off. safeties don't always work that's why you should never depend on them but they do save life's.
Police officers have safeties but that never effects their ability to shoot in a fast situation. it only takes I little flick on and off to save a innocent persons life.

That is really a assumption to say that police officers have safety's, the department I worked for used S&W M&P pistols that did not have safety's and I can also not think of any other department my friends work for that have pistols with safety's. 
Either way yes you are right it only! Takes a second to take a safety off. FBI statistics are that the average police shootout lasts 3-5 seconds. So when seconds count I do not want to waste even one when my life depends on it.

I should have said they have the option to choose which weapons they have out of a list. Which some have safety's. saying they don't have time to turn off the safety is like saying they don't have time to pull it out of the holster. while they pull up the pistol they can click off the safety. But I'm not 100% against police not having safeties because as long as it is totally locked up at home no one can get hold of their gun but them. But there are a lot of sad stories about kids getting ahold of guns loaded with no safety's even if the parents hide them and think the child knows nothing about it. It even happens with police officers, there was a police officer who brought his gun home (loaded no safety) set it on a high desk and his 3-4 year old son grabbed it and shot him self on accident That's why I am very against having no safeties.

[NW-GSP]

Do you really think having a safety on a pistol makes it safe for it to be left unsecured around children?. No matter if it has a safety or not it should be secured.

[magnumb]

Josie,

If your premise, and a few others here, is that a thumb safety is so easy to manipulate (just a simple 'flick of a switch') and nearly as fast or as fast to put into action as a gun without a safety, then how is it any safer for a child, young person or another adult to do the same thing....?  A person of any age, that is not supposed to have access to a unsupervised gun with a safety, has the ability to take a second, a minute, 5 minutes, an hour or longer to just 'flick that switch' off and fire that weapon, since we need to assume that the gun owner is, at that time, totally unaware that this person is actually handling their gun.  A gun, with or without a safety, is no more or less dangerous in that scenario, which is unfortunately, the scenario most accidental shootings of oneself perfectly describes.

So......no.  A gun with a safety is no more safe for that obvious reason.  A gun and it's design doesn't maim or kill people, no matter how young, old or innocent.  People, whether unintentionally or not, maim or kill people.  That is the truth, no matter how the results might deeply affect us. 

Rosie O'Donnell's fork didn't make her pleasantly obese........ .

Again......how, where and when a gun owner deals with the very real issue of firearms storage, especially those households with kids, has no bearing whatsoever  on whether a gun with or without a safety is...........safer.  Storage, availability and access to your firearm is, at this time anyway, an individual right and decision that we all must make as gun owners.  The scrutiny that applies to incidents involving children involved shooting is immense and most times, relentless.  I certainly get the 'emotional' responses that immediately surface after such an incident, but likely more children die of ingesting household chemicals or physical abuse than those whose demise was brought about by the misuse of a firearm.  Yet, because a gun is a gun and many people despise guns and their owners, it garners the most attention when such a tragedy occurs.  How many articles have you read lately involving deaths where children died at their own hands when not associated with a firearm and scores of people then rallied in Olympia to demand an immedaite change....? 

We must use our best judgement when it comes to all aspects of gun ownership.  If we assume that a firearm with a safety is unquestionably safer than the alternative, would it not follow that we might be less apt to worry about such tragic events happening...?  If human nature is any indication of how we humans 'roll' and it obviously is, we tend to take the easiest and quickest route with most things........good, bad or otherwise.

A gun with a safety is no more safe than one without.....in any circumstance.

Good luck Josie....... .

[police women of America]

I totally agree you have to keep the gun locked up and secured away from children I do. but children don't know how to use a fire arm it might take them a hour to learn how to turn off a safety but just a half hour could give the parent enough time to realize that they are gone.
and yes its not a extremely common thing but people should learn from their mistakes and the mistakes of others the main problem is people leaving their guns out but I never once heard the gun having a safety except for when people rely on the safety.
its your choice to have or not have the safety on your gun but personally I always have a safety its a extra precaution its not needed but neither is a safe or a gun lock.
thanks

[h20hunter]

but children don't know how to use a fire arm it might take them a hour to learn how to turn off a safety but just a half hour could give the parent enough time to realize that they are gone.
thanks

No no no....can't think that way. With the toys and airsoft available I wholeheartedly disagree. Kids these days have handled exact replicas that are labeled as "toys".

[magnumb]

Josie,

Let me sum up the 'securing your weapon safely' topic with this thought.

If a gun owner in a family home can't immediately get to his/her weapon in a very timely fashion, the very same children that you admirably worry about playing with guns and hurting themselves or others, are now at a greater risk of being harmed....or worse.  The husband or wife can be as fast as 'Speedy Gonzales' at retrieving their handgun, but the very fact that they feel a need to immediately arm themselves means that the threat is imminent or that you're quite possibly only seconds away from needing to respond in order to save you and yours.  Bad people always have the element of surprise on their side......always. 

A gun secured so well that the gun owner can't immediately access it is a recipe for disaster.  The next obvious step past really, really, really securing a weapon as you are obviously passionate about, is not a far cry from not owning a weapon at all and then needing to choose another line of defense.

There is no right or wrong answer in regards to how to be 100% assured that a child or whomever can't or won't gain access to your firearm, unless it is so securely locked up in a vault or safe with a single key and/or code which is only then possessed by the gun owner.

If so, what use is there in purchasing a firearm specifically for the protection of you and your family if you can't access it when you most need it......?

Please excuse me for awhile Josie because suddenly I feel both a great need to make a phone call to my adult daughter as you have just reminded me that I was evidently wrong some years back and definitely owe her an apology and that I also need to refill my Zoloft prescription........ASAP........... .

Good talk Josie....