lets talk excess pressure

[huntandjeep]

So this might be long winded so bear with me cause in new to reloading.Both these loads were worked up by the previous owner of the rifles. The 6.5x284 is loaded with 52 grains of H4831 ( 1 grain over max according to Berger manual ). The 7mm Rem mag is loaded with 67.5 grains of IMR7828 ( 2.5 grains over max per Berger manual ). The 7mm has a slightly hard bolt lift while the 6.5 does not. Both have a slight circle in the base of the cartridge case ( 11:00 o'clock on the 7mm and 5:00 on the 6.5 ).  Pretty sure I know I need to back the powder down on the 7mm. Should I just make the jump down to 65 grains or work backwards towards it until the bolt lift eases ?

[jeffro]

As an avid reloader, please pull any remaining bullets from the previous owner and start fresh, with a low to midrange load and work up, not down from max.

[T Pearce]

Too hot.

[HUNTINCOUPLE]

Yep start low work to max load per the books. Pick the load that gives you the best group.

[huntandjeep]

As an avid reloader, please pull any remaining bullets from the previous owner and start fresh, with a low to midrange load and work up, not down from max.

 I agree with you on pulling them apart ( doing it tomorrow) .  On the 7mm I understand  "why" I should start at the minimum load but if the circle is barely there at 2.5 grains over max is there a reason to drop all the way down ?  In my thinking I could drop down to say 62.5 grains and work back up ?

[huntandjeep]

Yep start low work to max load per the books. Pick the load that gives you the best group.

The 7mm is sub 3/4" and the 6.5 is sub 1/2"  both 5 rounds at 100yrds.

[yorketransport]

What bullets and weights are the loads using?

If you see ejector marks then you're already pushing the pressures pretty hard.

Andrew

[huntandjeep]

What bullets and weights are the loads using?

If you see ejector marks then you're already pushing the pressures pretty hard.

Andrew

The 6.5 is using 140 grain Berger's ,Norma brass and CCI 200 primers. The 7mm is using 168 grain Bergers , Winchester brass and CCI 250 primers.

[huntandjeep]

Ok pulled apart all the 7mm rounds. Going to start over on that one at 62 and work up in 1/2 grain increments . Should I go up until the ejector marks just starts to show up than back down a 1/2 grain ? How many rounds of each powder increment should I load up . In thinking 3 ?
The 6.5 in going to leave alone until after high buck.

[wsmnut]

There's a reason that there is a max load published.  It's to keep your face and your rifle in one piece.  Work up slowly and please don't go past the max load for that powder/projectile combination.  Your fellow shooters and your family will thank you.
Good Luck

[300rum]

Those aren't too over pressure, showing signs of a little primer flattening but not horrible.  I would have no problem shooting those as long as they are accurate.  You need to find accurate, accuracy is what you want, not fast.  Sometimes Accurate is fast, other times not but accuracy always trumps fast.   

It would be interesting to know what he did to the brass prior to loading, New brass? Trim Length?  Full-Length sized?  Was the bolt hard to close when loading?

Max pressure is a guide and nothing more then a guide.  I have many rifles and pistols that I go over max with.  I even use powders that have no published loads.  The rifle will tell you what max is, go by the rifle. 

Also, make sure and use a chrono when working up a load, a chrono helps a ton.   

[jasnt]

Those aren't too over pressure, showing signs of a little primer flattening but not horrible.  I would have no problem shooting those as long as they are accurate.  You need to find accurate, accuracy is what you want, not fast.  Sometimes Accurate is fast, other times not but accuracy always trumps fast.   

It would be interesting to know what he did to the brass prior to loading, New brass? Trim Length?  Full-Length sized?  Was the bolt hard to close when loading?

Max pressure is a guide and nothing more then a guide.  I have many rifles and pistols that I go over max with.  I even use powders that have no published loads.  The rifle will tell you what max is, go by the rifle. 

Also, make sure and use a chrono when working up a load, a chrono helps a ton.   

[huntandjeep]

Those aren't too over pressure, showing signs of a little primer flattening but not horrible.  I would have no problem shooting those as long as they are accurate.  You need to find accurate, accuracy is what you want, not fast.  Sometimes Accurate is fast, other times not but accuracy always trumps fast.   

It would be interesting to know what he did to the brass prior to loading, New brass? Trim Length?  Full-Length sized?  Was the bolt hard to close when loading?

Max pressure is a guide and nothing more then a guide.  I have many rifles and pistols that I go over max with.  I even use powders that have no published loads.  The rifle will tell you what max is, go by the rifle. 

Also, make sure and use a chrono when working up a load, a chrono helps a ton.

Both rifles are using new brass . The 7mm has been shot 55 times ( 20 buy the previous owner ) the rest by me.  I don't remember the bolt sticking on all of the original 30 rounds he gave me. I do remember about 3 of them causing a sticky bolt. I reloaded the 50 with his recipe and shot it 5 times yesterday and all 5 had a stiff bolt.

He's shot the 6.5 about 35 times. I picked it up 2 weeks ago from him with 25 already loaded rounds. Took it yesterday to sight it in using his rounds.
Both bolts take some force to shut not alot but its noticeable compared to when unloaded.
The COAL of the 7mm is 3.43 and the 6.5 is 3.050 if that helps.
Also the 7mm is built off a Stiller predator action and the 6.5 is a Cooper Excaliber model 52.

[300rum]

Are you re-sizing the new brass?  If you are full-length re-sizing are you turning your die down until the shell plate cam's over on the down stroke?  Basically, are you turning your die down until it just touches the shell plate or until it cams over the shell plate?

[2labs]

If your getting sub. 1/2 out of your 6.5 but the bolt is a firm close, I'd bump the shoulder a slight Blonde one. And give it a try those are awesome groups and your primers don't look bad

[huntandjeep]

Are you re-sizing the new brass?  If you are full-length re-sizing are you turning your die down until the shell plate cam's over on the down stroke?  Basically, are you turning your die down until it just touches the shell plate or until it cams over the shell plate?

I haven't had to load any new brass yet. Using the previous loaded brass ( im loading it for the second time ). I ran the die down till it just touches the shell holder, let off on the ram and turned the die down another 1/4-3/8 turn. When I resize it cams over.

[huntandjeep]

If your getting sub. 1/2 out of your 6.5 but the bolt is a firm close, I'd bump the shoulder a slight Blonde one. And give it a try those are awesome groups and your primers don't look bad

Not sure what your meaning by bump the shoulder? Or how to do it 

[2labs]

Are you re-sizing the new brass?  If you are full-length re-sizing are you turning your die down until the shell plate cam's over on the down stroke?  Basically, are you turning your die down until it just touches the shell plate or until it cams over the shell plate?

I haven't had to load any new brass yet. Using the previous loaded brass ( im loading it for the second time ). I ran the die down till it just touches the shell holder, let off on the ram and turned the die down another 1/4-3/8 turn. When I resize it cams over.
[/quote





By doing this,your taking fire formed brass and sizing it back to Sammi specs.
If your not sharing reloads with buddies and only shooting these out of this gun there is no reason to work your brass that much. A slight shoulder bump and neck size is all that's needed. Get more mileage out of your brass also.
And there's always scotch tape! The red neck case gauge.

[300rum]

Are you using a case gauge on your brass and trimming after re-sizing?

[300rum]

You can't just screw your FL die in and expect your ammo to case gauge without either knowing the specs of you your chamber or using a case gauge. 

You have to know where to set your shoulder of your brass.  Your 7mm, a belted magnum, headspaces off the belt on the brass's first shot and then you need to bump the shoulder back on you next loading.  You will be headspacing off the shoulder from here on out with that brass.  In order to set your shoulder you have to know where to set your die, you probably aren't screwing your die in far enough to set the shoulder back but this isn't a place to be guessing, you need to know your chamber.  Likely it will be somewhere in the .0015 to .005 range.

If you don't set your shoulder you will find over pressure soon (bad, bad).  If you bump your shoulder back too far you will have case head separation (bad, bad).

After you set your shoulder and re-size, you will need to trim to length (or at least measure to see if you need to trim) as you are stretching the neck of the case. 

[300rum]

When you fire a cartridge in your chamber, the cartridge expands to the exact size of your chamber.  When you reload that once-fired cartridge with a full length die you need to "bump" the shoulder of the cartridge back with your die, this allows your cartridge to chamber and headspace correctly in the chamber.  When you bump the shoulder the neck of the cartridge can lengthen so you need to trim to desired length. 

If your getting sub. 1/2 out of your 6.5 but the bolt is a firm close, I'd bump the shoulder a slight Blonde one. And give it a try those are awesome groups and your primers don't look bad

Not sure what your meaning by bump the shoulder? Or how to do it 

[huntandjeep]

Are you using a case gauge on your brass and trimming after re-sizing?

No and no. Guess those are the next 2 items I need to pick up.
Are you talking about a case gauge like the Lyman ez case gauge or something more like a Wilson case gauge or RCBS precision mic ?

[300rum]

https://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/9/pid/25549/catid/3/L_E__Wilson_Case_gages

[300rum]

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/479704/hornady-lock-n-load-headspace-gage-5-bushing-set-with-comparator?cm_vc=ProductFinding

[huntandjeep]

Ok that's what I thought you were talking about .

[jasnt]

I've never bumped shoulders in any rifle I have.  I Neck size only. Sure it has a slight resistance when closing the bolt but it's not nessasary to do so and it will work your brass more making it hard and needing anealed more often. Been doing it this way for six years now. I've got a batch of 300wm brass with almost 40 reloads with not one split,crack, or head separation.  Jme

[Old Man Now]

You can't just screw your FL die in and expect your ammo to case gauge without either knowing the specs of you your chamber or using a case gauge. 

You have to know where to set your shoulder of your brass.  Your 7mm, a belted magnum, headspaces off the belt on the brass's first shot and then you need to bump the shoulder back on you next loading.  You will be headspacing off the shoulder from here on out with that brass.  In order to set your shoulder you have to know where to set your die, you probably aren't screwing your die in far enough to set the shoulder back but this isn't a place to be guessing, you need to know your chamber.  Likely it will be somewhere in the .0015 to .005 range.

If you don't set your shoulder you will find over pressure soon (bad, bad).  If you bump your shoulder back too far you will have case head separation (bad, bad).

After you set your shoulder and re-size, you will need to trim to length (or at least measure to see if you need to trim) as you are stretching the neck of the case.

Excellent!!
I have loaded for my Rem. 7 mag since 1978 (37 yrs) and can only remember 2 times of ever having problems with it. Sticky bolt can be: high pressure or tight fit on the casing.

But, I would also suggest you invest in a RCBS Case Mic for that cal., it will surely help!. I have a case mic for every cal. that I load for - 7 in total. Once you start using one, you will soon realize that it's a great tool to have. They check the head space.

Also, I use the Redding shell holder's, these come in a set of 5 for different cal.s and also a great asset for reloading, especially if loading for several rifles in the same caliber.

[Bill W]

I've shot "hot loads" out of my 7x57 since around 1987 and after that many years don't feel the need for it.  I'd get bright marks on the back of the case and based on conventional thought that's in the pressure range of 65K.  The difference in trajectory of a hot load vs a regular load is negligible.  And on an animal, dead is dead.  Doesn't matter if it's a hot load or a normal load.

I still have a small batch of hot loads but once they are shot up I intend to return to normal pressure.   

The hot loads were developed using an older Bob Hagel book on "practical ballistics".

Per benchrest shooting I've learned that there are three "nodes" that will show the best accuracy.  A node found with lower velocity, a medium velocity node and one that exhibits pressure signs on the back of the case.

In competition the smallest group wins.  On an animal the x ring is at least 10"x10" and dead is dead.

[mazama]

Having reloaded 40+ yrs ihave found you can do every thing right and still have problems,load a bunch of ammo and some woll not be same,had tight loads on one gun because brass sat without cleaning the case necks stretched and pulled out after resizing. Have found corncob media in chamber made for tight seating.If you shoot loads you will have to push shoulder back,I now use only once fired brass for hunting loads and I cycle every round to make sure there is no problems.

[huntandjeep]

So the 2 case gauges 300rum linked are what I need . Is the Wilson better than the Hornady ? Or will the Hornady do the same job .
Allen

[Old Man Now]

Look Here - https://www.wideners.com/itemview.cfm?dir=210|211|619

[Old Man Now]

For some reason the whole link is not highlighted - but any case it's for the RCBS Precision Mic.
https://www.wideners.com/itemview.cfm?dir=210|211|619

But check around for pricing.

[huntandjeep]

So I got to thinking last night about the 7mm. When I finished off the original 20 rounds the previous owner worked up I never had a tight bolt lift after firing those rounds. Since I never checked them with a case gauge just set up the die and went. Is it possible that I never set the die up correct and im creating a headspace issue which is causing the tight bolt and not the powder charge ?

[wsmnut]

If they were incorrectly sized you would possibly have issues closing the bolt.  You have issues opening the bolt due to over pressure.
Those cases plump when they cook.  If you over pressure them they get tight.
Reduce the charge and work up slowly.
Good Luck.

[300rum]

He probably used new brass? or sized/trimmed correctly. 

Yes, you will find signs of overpressure much sooner in a cartridge that hasn't been sized correctly even with a lower powder charge.  For instance, you could use new brass that is within tolerance and have no signs of over pressure then use the same powder charge in a cartridge with a case that is incorrectly sized/trimmed and have signs of over pressure.  You need to size/trim and then work up a load.   

So I got to thinking last night about the 7mm. When I finished off the original 20 rounds the previous owner worked up I never had a tight bolt lift after firing those rounds. Since I never checked them with a case gauge just set up the die and went. Is it possible that I never set the die up correct and im creating a headspace issue which is causing the tight bolt and not the powder charge ?

[2labs]

Yur welcome!

[huntandjeep]

If they were incorrectly sized you would possibly have issues closing the bolt.  You have issues opening the bolt due to over pressure.
Those cases plump when they cook.  If you over pressure them they get tight.
Reduce the charge and work up slowly.
Good Luck.

The bolt was a little tight to close.

[huntandjeep]

He probably used new brass? or sized/trimmed correctly. 

Yes, you will find signs of overpressure much sooner in a cartridge that hasn't been sized correctly even with a lower powder charge.  For instance, you could use new brass that is within tolerance and have no signs of over pressure then use the same powder charge in a cartridge with a case that is incorrectly sized/trimmed and have signs of over pressure.  You need to size/trim and then work up a load.   

So I got to thinking last night about the 7mm. When I finished off the original 20 rounds the previous owner worked up I never had a tight bolt lift after firing those rounds. Since I never checked them with a case gauge just set up the die and went. Is it possible that I never set the die up correct and im creating a headspace issue which is causing the tight bolt and not the powder charge ?

Ordered a case gauge set and trimmer today. Was just thinking out loud

[huntandjeep]

Should I just be bump sizing then? I understand full length sizing returns them to Saami spec ,but I don't need to do that every time correct. Just when using new brass before there fired in my chamber. These will never go in somebody else's rifle

[jasnt]

Should I just be bump sizing then? I understand full length sizing returns them to Saami spec ,but I don't need to do that every time correct. Just when using new brass before there fired in my chamber. These will never go in somebody else's rifle

that would be up to you and your rifle.  Like I said earlier I only neck size no bumping at all. But for those that like the lighting fast cycle and don't mind the slightly shorter brass life normally bump the shoulder back about .002" 

 

[huntandjeep]

While waiting for my trimmer and case gouges  to show up I threw the calipers on my 7mm brass. The 5 that caused the tight bolt measure 2.527 - 2.519 - 2.514 - 2.527 & 2.526 these have been fired twice.  Than I randomly pulled 5 of the original load that have been shot once and loaded twice . They measured 2.510 - 2.505 - 2.510 - 2.503 & 2.521. So I need to trim these all back to 2.490 correct? As soon as the case gauges show up I will throw up those measurements.

[2labs]

It's the datum of the shoulder causing the firm bolt not the neck lenght most likely.

[huntandjeep]

It's the datum of the shoulder causing the firm bolt not the neck lenght most likely.

That's what the previous owner that built the rifle is thinking also. Case gauges should be here tomorrow.

[2labs]

I'm out...Elvis has left the building!

[huntandjeep]

Case gauges showed up today and I measured the 5 fired cases from the 7mm. They measured 2.129 , 2.129 , 2.128 , 2.127 & 2.125. Then I measured 5 of the previously loaded rounds that I pulled the bullets and powder from. They were 2.121 , 2.123 , 2.123 , 2.121 & 2.124.
Am I sizing them correctly?

[jasnt]

Seems inconsistent to me. Something has some play to it I would think to have that kind of variation

[huntandjeep]

Trimmed the 7mm cases down last night to 2.490. Loaded up a couple of the 67.5 grain rounds , went to the range to shoot and see if there was still a problem with the sticky bolt. No problem lifting the bolt after the shot. The gun is now however all over the place? I don't understand how it went from sub 3/4" or less groups to 1 1/2"+ , and the shots are all stringing Hi and right.

[jasnt]

If it was me I'd work all your brass so it's as consistent as you can get. Then re work the load. Re working the load will help you get to know the rifle and you will know that it's the best load for your rifle, But first check your rail and rings and such for loose screws. Seen that happen to a lot of rifles that just start opening up. 

[huntandjeep]

If it was me I'd work all your brass so it's as consistent as you can get. Then re work the load. Re working the load will help you get to know the rifle and you will know that it's the best load for your rifle, But first check your rail and rings and such for loose screws. Seen that happen to a lot of rifles that just start opening up.

Scope ,rail and rings are all tight that's the first thing checked. Its funny i loaded up a couple rounds with .5 grains less powder and they are alot closer than the original load. 5/8" center to center as opposed to 1" center to center. Both loads are hitting almost in the exact spot on the target .
With the 67.5 grain load the  first shot is bulls-eye. 2nd shot is 3/4" high and 1/2" right of 1st. 3rd is 3/4" high and 1/2" right of 2nd.
With the 76 grain load 1st is bulls-eye. 2nd is 5/8 high and 1/2" high of 1st. And 3rd is 5/8" high and 1/2" high of 2nd. .
I'm going to buy new brass and start all over again at the beginning.