Colockum and Yakima Hunters Unite.

[colockumelk]

This may be somewhat long but please bear with me and read the whole thing.  We need to stand together against the slaughter of elk and deer by Indian hunters and this will be the first step in that process.  It is obvious that many of you share my beliefs that something needs to be done to stop the decimation of the Colockum bull population by the Yakama Indian Tribe.  It is obvious that the game department either doesn't care or is to afraid to do anything about it.  Either way it is time that somebody put a stop to this and did the game departments job for them. 

This is what I propose.  I'm sure many of you have written letters that have drawn little if any response from the game department.  As individuals we can not hope to get anything done.  But as a group that works as a team towards a common goal we can do anything.  As an individual we are limited by our many flaws, but as a team there isn't anything we can't accomplish.  If we get enough people to participate they'll have to do something.  The Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation was started by a few hunters twenty some years ago and look how much they've accomplished.

This is what we need to do.  We need to begin an activist group much like RMEF or Green Peace to begin to work towards making Indian hunters abide by the same rules and regulations that we do.  I was born in America so how am I any less of a Native American than an Indian is?  Currently we as Non-Indian hunters are second class citizens. Non of the other Western states allow their Indian tribes to hunt all year round killing as many animals as they want to outside of their reservations so why should Washington be different? 

We need to band together and start having meetings and raise money and find lawyers and collect our own evidence about how unfair and stupid this practise is so we can bring it to our state legislature.  We need to start a petition around here and maybe even state wide to show how serious we really are and that it's time to stop.  Right now they blame it on poachers or even us (we kill too many spikes) but if they are faced with overwhelming evidence that only you as outdoorsmen who are out there all the time, then they'll have to listen.  Imagine if they tried to say we're a bunch of ignorant people and then we show them a bunch of pics using game cameras of truck loads of dead elk driven by Indians coming out of the Colockum.  We also need to see if groups like RMEF and Mule Deer Forever etc will help out as well since they've done this sort of thing before.

I know I spoke mostly about the Colockum but Yakima hunters need to band with us together as well since they Yakama's do the same thing to your herds.  This message is sort of a feeler message to find out if any of you are interested in starting a group with a President, Vice President, Treasurer, and Secretary etc.  The whole nine yards.  We can't go half way, we're either all in or not at all. 

I've started an email address for this purpose.  Its' colockumelk@yahoo.com
If you have any comments or ideas or if you would like to start a group with me that would be great.  If you know community organizers or key leaders this would also be great.  I'd like to begin having meetings no later than March.  Obviously the sooner the better.  Also if you have any pics of Indians with big bulls or elk etc, or what would be great is if we could get people to start putting their game cameras higher up in some trees just off of the roads so we can get some good pics of truck loads of dead elk and deer in the back of their vehicles.  The game department might be unwilling but we're not.  Enough is enough.  If you want to help out please email me back lets set up a group meeting to finally put an end to the insanity that it unlimited tribal hunting. 

Hunters
Against
Unlimited hunting by
Native
Tribes

[colockumelk]

Oh yeah feel free to comment on here as well.

[alanger]

Colockum elk do you have any pictures?

[muleyguy]

you have to realize that the law is clear:  tribal hunters have a LEGAL right to do what they are doing.  The war over this has already been fought, and the Tribe won, here is an excerpt:   


"On Feb. 12, 1974, Judge Boldt handed down his 203-page decision.

The Indians won. Overwhelmingly.

Boldt, relying on an 1828 edition of Webster's American Dictionary, interpreted "in common with" to mean the Indians were entitled to half the harvestable salmon running through their traditional waters. Fifty percent! The ruling shocked even the Indians, who made up only 1 percent of the state's population.

Furthermore, Boldt made the tribes co-managers of the state's fisheries. With the drop of a gavel, tribes transformed, in the eyes of the law, from underground poaching societies to at-the-table equals with the state authorities that had persecuted them for so long.

Acrimony still festers

The ruling stuck. It withstood years of sometimes-violent protest by non-Indian fishermen. It withstood state appeals argued doggedly by then state Attorney General Slade Gorton. The Court of Appeals and eventually the U.S. Supreme Court upheld Boldt's decision."



Here are the options if you want to do something, and none of them are good:

1.  PR campaign to try and get societal pressure to stop them.  This is a longshot at best, as environmental groups are fond of the indians because they can use the tribe's soverignty and treaties to further their own environmental agenda's, as such, the tribe has unlimited legal funds in many of its fights because it is being backed by big environmental groups.  These groups are not going to stand up to the tribe because some bull elk are getting shot, when, they are using the tribe to further their water rights issues, etc.
2.  Try and slow it down through secondary laws, like gating, etc.   Tribal members can shoot big game animals off of the reservation, but, they still have to abide by other laws off of the rez.  This could be successful, but, any laws or gating that restricts tribal members is also going to restrict non tribal members, so that is a tricky one also.
3.  Try and work with the tribe to find a solution whereby they police their own.  This is also not a very desirable situation as the tribe is not really interested in working with the the white man......and, they are not very good at policing their own.
4.  Put a group of sportsman together who patrol these areas and harass (non violently) indians when they show up to try and harvest these animals, like the PETA people do to hunters. 

Outside of those types of solutions, there is not much you can do.  Your best bet is to get a group of like minded people and work with a sympathetic local legislator in the area that enjoys big game hunting.  You might be able to put a taskforce together with the stakeholders that might be able to come up with solutions that have not been thought of yet, or, you might be able to talk some sense into the tribe and get them to police their own.......

bottom line though, is that you are not going to stop them legally...........you can't get to a court higher than the US Supreme Court. 

[alanger]

yeah i actually happen to know what the law is. But there isnt a law on going to court after trials and steps of all info colleting and fact straightening to win a law back. you know we really dont have to put up with this if everyone does something about it. i realize it will take long time but the more people and effort it does make an impact!                                            

[muleyguy]

you aren't going up against a "law";  you are going up against a treaty signed by one soverign nation with another soverign nation, that the Supreme Court has upheld.  Last time I checked, you couldn't go any higher then the supreme court of the US.

money can't fix it..........the limited resources that any hunting group could manage to muster to try and tackle the issue would be completely wasted, and overwhelmed by the resources from the other side.

the limited resources and time that the hunting community could muster, need to be focused on a strategy that has a chance of working

you can't pass a "law" that takes away rights from a soveriegn nation that you have no control over.......and, that your own country has signed its rights away.

hey, I don't like it anymore than anybody else, but, this issue has been around for a long time, and, has been fought over many times, very aggressively on the part of sportsman and the State of Washington.  I can tell you that Slade Gorton is a friend of sportsman, and conservative.

jumping up and down, stamping your feet louder, and blasting money at a legal money pit, is not going to solve the issue.

you need to find other ways to do it........and unfortunately, there aren't any good options.....

[JoshT]

They're a soverign nation when they're on THEIR land shooting THEIR critters. When they're on AMERICAN (that we pay for) soil, shooting OUR elk (that we pay for)... they need to act accordingly. We can't go on the Res. and hammer an elk without obeying the rules they put in place... the converse should be true as well.

Furthermore... If this is a "treaty"... there's two sides to the coin. What are they required to do under the terms of this treaty? What service are they expected to provide? Seems to me if they get half... they should pay for half. Half the WDFW budget, half the land maint., half the reclimation projects... H-A-L-F!!! If they aren't holding up their end... then no more treaty... no more elky!

One of the guys who works for me sent me a picture of a Mountain Goat he shot up off Mt. Sai... I just about flipped... but, it's his "right"... no tag neccessary. WTF?

[WVT]

the whole thing is sickening! seems like our world has turned upside down.

[colockumelk]

Here is what I have so far for a basic plan and what this is all about.  I am not a racist and I am not trying to restrict any group from hunting.  I only aim to make rules and regulations fair and equal for all.  I am doing this for the elk and deer.  We can not properly or responsibly regulate and preserve a natural resource like our wildlife if a group utilizing modern weapons and tools are allowed to harvest them indiscriminately and without any restrictions.  Elk are no match against high powered rifles, scopes, ATVs and snowmobiles.

So far this is what I plan to do.  My plan is to get together with meetings a large group of people.  The more the better in order to put together a PR campaign.  We will get people to write our senators etc.  We will put together  a plan to spread the word what we're doing (Websites etc) and hopefully get the REMF and other like minded groups to help out.  If we can get the press involved this would be awesome as well.  We will obviously start a statewide petition to stop this and put the word out about what we're about.  We will be called racists by the otherside but we will not stoop to their level and will remain professional at all times.

We will work with the WDFW to begin to get the laws already in place enforced such as shooting from vehicles an driving closed roads etc.  With a large amount of people I want to get together some "Eyes in the Woods" kind of thing just like PETA and take video and pictures of the atrocities that they commit.  Unlike PETA however we will not harass them or talk to them at all.  WE will just silently film them.  Also I would like to get people to use their trail cams on the roads out that will do two things.  Document all of the elk that the Yakama's are killing and also will catch all other poachers as well.  We will work with them to actually close the closed roads with gates and dips etc.  With a large amount of people we can volunteer time and maybe resources to work with this.  I agree with more road closures but first we need to enforce the current road closures and make those actually work before we impose any more restrictions on ourselves.

We will work with the legislature and the WDFW to force the Yakama's to be accountable for how many elk they kill.  Such as a punch card like we need for salmon.  The ultimate goal would be to to force them to abide by the same rules and restrictions that we do.  If this means that they should get free hunting licenses then so be it. 

[loveipabeer]

Sounds good. I think the majority of us are behind you and with you on this.

[colockumelk]

I hope so because I'll need all the help I can get.  In the next month or so we're going to have a website put together and from there we can start putting together our first meeting.  It will be a long and hard process but together as a team we will win no matter what quitters and Mr. Negative type of people on here say.  99 percent of you are positive.  With an attitude like that we can't lose.

[muleyguy]

"What are they required to do under the terms of this treaty? What service are they expected to provide?"

in terms of hunting on usual and accustomed lands outside the reservation??  Nothing.......they have an absolute right to shoot big game animals in these areas.  This right has been affirmed by the Supreme Court of the United States.

"We will work with the legislature and the WDFW to force the Yakama's to be accountable for how many elk they kill.  Such as a punch card like we need for salmon.  The ultimate goal would be to to force them to abide by the same rules and restrictions that we do."

the State of Washington has no authority to regulate or control what tribal members shoot in the "usual and accustomed" areas off of their reservations.  It is a Federal issue, and, as I said above, their right to do this has been upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States;  you cannot pass a law "rescinding" a treaty that the US agreed to.

you can call me Mr Negative, that is fine;  but, you will quickly come to realize as you invest hours of your time and resources into this that I am not being negative, I am being a realist.  Most on this forum think it is just a matter of "getting a law passed";  that is not going to work.  My suggestion would be to contact a lawyer who has extensive knowledge in this area, and, there are plenty, as this issue has been argued many times before legally, and spend a couple hours with him in a consultation about what the legal options are.  This will take care of the idea that you can somehow legislate, regulate, or legally deal with the issue.  It is a dead end.  And, lawyers at $300/hr, legally fighting issues that the Supreme Court has already decided on, will burn through cash faster than you can hope to raise it.

better to focus on some of the other strategies that you outlined.  Although, ultimately, and none of you are going to want to hear this, probably the only real solution is to sit down with the Tribe, and try and get them to voluntarily work with the WDFW and the stakeholder hunting groups to regulate it on their own.  For those of us who "chested" up to the tribe on other issues (water, etc), this, at the end of the day, is what it comes down to because the issue is the same whether you are talking water, salmon, or hunting:  the treaties that our forefathers signed, and that our current Supreme Court have upheld, carry the day legally.

[colockumelk]

While yes you are somewhat negative you do give me really good ideas and I appreciate your honesty and sincerety so please don't take the Mr. Negative thing as an attack on you.  First of all Supreme Court decisions can be overturned and are overturned all the time.  Also changing the laws if we can do this is the last stage in our campaign.  That attempt would be years down the road.  As I've said before the first order of business is a PR campaign and using that pressure to get the tribes to change things.  As for the cost of lawyers I'm sure there are some lawyers out there who would be happy to either make a name for themselves or have a personnel interest in this matter and would take this for free or close to it.  However that will be a tough fight and should be saved for last.  Again I thank you for your honesty but I've never lost a fight and I don't intend to start now.

[muleyguy]

I do sincerely wish you all the best;  I will agree that nothing changes in this world without trying.  There has been a lot of legal work done before on this, and that is a good starting point to research to see how all of the issues line out.  Good luck, and keep the forum posted with what you are doing.

[WOLD D.M.]

I KNOW THER IS NOT MUCH WE CAN DO.  BUT MAY BE WE AS STATE WIDE HUNTERS COULD STAY OUT OF THERE TRIBAL CACENO'S IN PROTEST UNTEL THE TRIBAL COUNCEL TAKES CARE OF THE PROBLEM.  OR MAY WE COULD DO WHAT THE GAME DEPARTMENT DID AFTER THE SLATER IN THE LATE 60'S AND SCATTER HURDS AND MAKE IT HARD FOR THEM TO HUNT
 
THANKS

[Gobble]

I KNOW THER IS NOT MUCH WE CAN DO.  BUT MAY BE WE AS STATE WIDE HUNTERS COULD STAY OUT OF THERE TRIBAL CACENO'S IN PROTEST UNTEL THE TRIBAL COUNCEL TAKES CARE OF THE PROBLEM.  OR MAY WE COULD DO WHAT THE GAME DEPARTMENT DID AFTER THE SLATER IN THE LATE 60'S AND SCATTER HURDS AND MAKE IT HARD FOR THEM TO HUNT
 
THANKS

Welcome to the site. I couldn't agree more STAY OUT OF THE CASINOS. This is giving them great revenue and power to flex their muscles.

[colockumelk]

Muleyguy I think also where people failed is most have tried to change the treaty itself.  It's a federal thing and most likely that wont change.  The only way we could hope to change or ammend the treaty is through public pressure ie boycotting their casinos etc or so much negative opinion their way that they agree to ammend the treaty.  My goal is to 1. enforce the laws that are already there.  2. Actually close the roads that are already closed using kelly dips and gates instead of relying on peoples honesty.  3. to make new laws that will regulate their harvests.  A good example is how the tribes regulate their sheep tags.  I have no problem allowing all Indians to hunt off the reservation as long as they follow the same regs we do.  We can even give them free tags.  Also like the sheep in order for them to shoot a branch bull they must get drawn.  With the sheep tags there are special tags reserved for Indians so obviously it would be easier for them to draw a branch bull tag than it would be for you and me.  I think that this would be perfectly fair.

[Wenatcheejay]

You know I am beginning to wonder who is more absurd WDFW or the Tribes? Can you really blame the Tribes for not wanting to deal with people who mismanage things so badly? Don't get me wrong I do get upset about things but seriously, with the latest rule changes I am beginning to think that we are going about this the wrong way. Maybe we need to look at the Tribes taking everything over and we buy tags from them. Really, I MEAN IT! I am to the point of giving up hunting in Washington. This may be my last year of buying tags; They win.

[rougheye]

You know I am beginning to wonder who is more absurd WDFW or the Tribes? Can you really blame the Tribes for not wanting to deal with people who mismanage things so badly? Don't get me wrong I do get upset about things but seriously, with the latest rule changes I am beginning to think that we are going about this the wrong way. Maybe we need to look at the Tribes taking everything over and we buy tags from them. Really, I MEAN IT! I am to the point of giving up hunting in Washington. This may be my last year of buying tags; They win.

WOW , giving up huh ?  As absurd as that sounds im starting to feel the same way . The WDFW just took the lead over the tribes . 

[Wenatcheejay]

The only reason to hunt this state at all is that I am here. Out of State tags are expensive. But, you know I just bought licences tags for my son and I. It was over $200.00. For what? This type of drama? By the time you add gas, food, time off work, it is really not that big of a deal to add a few hundred for tags in a State with far better game management. WDFW doesn't care. Our State Government doesn't care. Sometimes you have to ask if the battle is worth fighting even if one is right? A couple of people splitting costs makes out of state seem like the logical choice. I am a bulldog for what is right but when I think of what a fight would be for, "true spike rules?" The new bear rules, coyote, and cougar rules? Deer unit closures? Of course not for them, (Indians & poachers) just us. Even if they disappeared, WDFW has made it (hunting) a "see and don't shoot." Or, "don't see don't shoot" situation. I think many people will agree after this season. It will only go down hill from here so long as the political engine that is bringing about these changes continues. (And it ain't gonna change through democracy.)

[colockumelk]

That's why we are creating a united front.  Democracy can solve things but if they scoff at our "requests" then it's time to play hard ball and make the requests into demands.   A few angry letters here and there wont solve anything.  Shoot they probably don't even read them any more.  No we have to launch a PR campaign and get pettitions signed and actually make our actions as loud as our words.  If it comes down to it I fully support a boycott of buying and hunting or fishing tags.  Lets see how the WDFW likes it when their budget is cut in half.

[colockumelk]

Heres what the treaty says.

ARTICLE 3.
And provided, That, if necessary for the public convenience, roads may be run through the said reservation; and on the other hand, the right of way, with free access from the same to the nearest public highway, is secured to them; as also the right, in common with citizens of the United States, to travel upon all public highways.
The exclusive right of taking fish in all the streams, where running through or bordering said reservation, is further secured to said confederated tribes and bands of Indians, as also the right of taking fish at all usual and accustomed places, in common with the citizens of the Territory, and of erecting temporary buildings for curing them; together with the privilege of hunting, gathering roots and berries, and pasturing their horses and cattle upon open and unclaimed land.
 

What we are trying to do is not change the treaty.  This is what everyone has tried in the past.  Our goals are to launch a Public Relations campaign against the tribes.  We will use their unwillingness and inability to police their own members unethical hunting practises.  Utilizing volunteers with video cameras we will video their hunting camps and get pictures of their poaching and their kills.  Game camera's will help out alot as well.  In any case we will launch a PR campaign against them and also get a petition so that we can get on the 2010 state wide ballot in order to enact new laws that prohibit the unrestricted havesting of big game animals by the tribe.  With all the bad PR they will get this bill is bound to pass.  We already have a website we just don't know what to call it.  We need everyones help in getting some pics of poached animals or video anything we can put on our website.  We plan on having meetings within two months. 

We are not talking about taking away the right to hunt from the Native Tribes.  OUr new law would require them while hunting off their reservation to abide by the same rules and regulations that we must abide by. They would be given free licenses and could have their own special permits drawings.  This would be just like their program that allows them to hunt sheep.  They still get to hunt but they just wont be allowed to continue to decimate our big game herds. 

We are also looking at helping to close off the roads that are already closed.  I am not interested at this time about closing more roads just putting physical barriers in front of the ones that are already closed.  This would go along ways in preventing poaching. 

[Wenatcheejay]

Do they have to abide by fire closures?

[muleyguy]

"on the 2010 state wide ballot in order to enact new laws that prohibit the unrestricted havesting of big game animals by the tribe."

the state does not have jurisdiction over tribal members;  this is why a state law will not work.  If a state law was all that was required, it would have already been done.  Your first order of business should be to find an attorney who knows the jurisdictions and laws and has done work in this area before, he will be able to quickly tell you what your options are concerning the existing law and future laws.

the program to hunt sheep is a purely VOLUNTEER program on the part of the tribe. 

[muleyguy]

at the end of the day, unfortunately, this is your only real solution, to try and talk some sense into the tribe about responsible management of their own, unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be anything the Yakama tribe is interested in:

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/nov/03/nation/na-treat

[colockumelk]

Muley you do alot of good research.  You should definately join us and help our fight.