Crossbows

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

With the new proposal to make crossbows legal in firearm restriction areas,  is this going to pave the way to making them legal for use statewide? Or just during established firearm restricted areas during modern seasons or are they going to fall under primitive weapons status due to origions/limitations? Do you support the use of crossbows?

[PolarBear]

Only for disabled hunters and no other exceptions, period!

[bowhuntin]

Only for disabled hunters and no other exceptions, period!

 

Firearm restricted areas can use shotguns, muzzleloaders or a bow.

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

Firearm restricted areas can use shotguns, muzzleloaders or a bow.
[/quote] that is the reason for the question, I am an archer and I could use my bow in any unit and season (proper tag) will crossbows end up in the same category?

[bowhuntin]

that is the reason for the question, I am an archer and I could use my bow in any unit and season (proper tag) will crossbows end up in the same category?

The way I read it in the proposal is they were going to let them be used in the firearm restricted areas only. To me that means only certain areas that are designated as such would you have the opportunity to use. I am going to go re-read what it says though.

[bowhuntin]

In the proposal it states, "It is unlawful to hunt wildlife with a crossbow, except in designated areas." I am not sure if they are going to create areas or not  I also thought there was something stating you could use them in firearm restricted areas but I am not sure.

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

I understand the rule as it is written  now would be only in firearm restriction areas but we all know that it would only be a matter of time before that changes.

[alanger]

Crossbows I think are just more for target shooting and i really dont support them for hunting in washington state. It's more of a cheating way to archery hunt. i mean the bows are already getting way more high tech then the ones way back when. So i don't know. they are fun for target shooting.

[whacker1]

firearm restriction areas - cross bows with or without scopes or is it even addressed?  I didn't see it.

[robb92]

Crossbows I think are just more for target shooting and i really dont support them for hunting in washington state. It's more of a cheating way to archery hunt. i mean the bows are already getting way more high tech then the ones way back when. So i don't know. they are fun for target shooting.

There is no reason why crossbows should not be allowed for hunting. It doesn't better your odds of filling your tag and it sure as hell doesn't increase your shooting distance.

The same analogy you used could be said for rifle hunting.

[bow4elk]

crossbows have no place in WA hunting seasons...period.

[mossback91]

Bows in general should have no place in Washington hunting seasons.

why do you think that?

[bow4elk]

I don't, I was just hoping Bow4elk would read it and realize how retarded his post sounded. 

Sorry.  My comment was not clear and you're right, it sounded off base.  I should have been more clear.  It is my opinion/position that crossbows have no place in WA archery seasons.  I'm sick of the Mfrs and ATA pushing crossbows as archery equipment.  Archery is archery - a bow is a bow.  A crossbow is a cross between a gun and a bow.  It is "cocked" and not held at full draw by human energy.  A crossbow fails to meet the definition of a bow, thus, it has no business being adopted as such.  I'm not some stuffy elitist.  I just think it's a different category of equipment.  It's no different that the airlines asking you to sign a firearms release form when checking a bow - I refuse to do that.  I'm not signing something that says my bow is a gun.  [Yes, I've had to fight this point with several airlines!]

The Pope and Young Club has established the following standard definitions of bowhunting equipment.

I. Hunting Bow

A. A hunting bow for big game shall be a longbow, flat bow, recurve bow, compound bow or any combination of these designs meeting the following requirements and restrictions:

1. A device for launching an arrow, which derives its propulsive energy solely from the bending and recovery of two limbs.
2. The bow must be hand drawn by a single and direct, uninterrupted pulling action of the shooter. The bowstring must be moved from brace height to the full draw position by the muscle power of the shooter’s body. The energy used to propel the arrow shall not be derived from any other source such as hydraulic, pneumatic, mechanical or similar devices. These limitations shall not exclude the mechanical leverage advantage provided by eccentric wheels or cams so long as the available energy stored in the bent limbs of the bow is the sole result of a single, continuous, and direct pulling effort by the shooter.
3. The bow must be hand-held. One hand shall hold the bow and the other hand draw the bowstring. The bowstring must be moved and/or held at all points in the draw cycle entirely by the muscle power of the shooter until release. The bowstring must be released as a direct and conscious action of the shooter’s eiter relaxing the tension of the fingers or triggering the release action of a hand-held release aid.
4. The bow shall be no shorter than 30 inches.

B. Exceptions: Physically handicapped bowhunters shall be excepted from the requirements of holding or shooting the bow with their hands.

C. Exclusions:

1. The following shall not be considered a hunting bow:

a) A crossbow.
b) Any device with a gun-type stock or incorporating any device or mechanism that holds the bowstring at partial or full draw without the shooter’s muscle power.
c) Electronic or battery-powered devices shall not be attached to a hunting bow.
d) No portion of the bow’s riser (handle) or any track, trough, channel or other device that attaches directly to the bow’s riser shall contact, support, and/or guide the arrow from a point rearward of the bow’s brace height.

D. Let-Off for Compound Bows:

1. Definition of let-off: That characteristic of a bow that results in a reduction of the force necessary to increase the draw length after the highest level of draw force has been reached. This is characteristic generally associated with, but not restricted to, compound bows.
2. The maximum let-off on a compound bow shall be measured at a point in the draw cycle after the peak draw weight has been attained. It shall be measured near the end of the draw cycle where the minimum holding force is reached. This point in the draw cycle on a compound bow is known as "the bottom of the valley."
3. Determination of the percent of let-off: The values of the peak draw force and the let-off force shall be used to calculate the percent of let-off. The peak force is the maximum force obtained during the draw cycle. The let-off force is the lowest force reached following the peak force during a single uninterrupted draw cycle. In all cases, both the highest and lowest force shall be read from a scale during a single and continual pull condition, without relaxation. This technique eliminates the introduction of hysteresis, which can distort the reading.
% Let-off = 100 X [(Peak Draw Force) - (Minimum Holding Force)] / (Peak Draw Force)
4. Effective January 1, 2004, animals taken with bows have nominal percent of let-off greater than 65 percent shall be listed with an asterisk (*) in the Records. It is recognized that variations in draw length and/or draw weight can affect the percent of let-off on compound bows. For these reasons minor variations in let-off are acceptable.

[robodad]

There are crossbow seasons in some states where anyone can participate, why not Washington ??

[bowhuntin]

There are crossbow seasons in some states where anyone can participate, why not Washington ??

Probably because we already have limited seasons for all user groups, would you really want to add another user group to the equation? All the user groups would stand to lose some of their season to accomodate another user group. Just my 

[bow4elk]

Agree BoneIt - unity under the umbrella of "HUNTING and TRAPPING and HOUNDSMAN" is the only way to keep our tradition alive and well for the next generation.

[robodad]

There are crossbow seasons in some states where anyone can participate, why not Washington ??

Probably because we already have limited seasons for all user groups, would you really want to add another user group to the equation? All the user groups would stand to lose some of their season to accomodate another user group. Just my 

Well like Ohio for example, Crossbows are legal during any archery muzzleloader or rifle season ?? Those that want to use traditional gear still can but those that don't, have the option of using a crossbow during the archery season. I don't think there will be any signifigant changes in the harvest report if they were allowed !!

[bowhuntin]

You maybe right but I bet if you allowed them that someone would argue that it would increase harvest or have potential. IMO I like the rules and regulations we have right now for archery seasons and I agree with the pope and young definition of what a bow is. I am okay if they are allowed for use for the disabled hunters.

[whacker1]

I am going to Agree with Bow4Elk in that our human & hunting population in the state of Washington is too high to justify adding another season or special permits for a new weapon, because all of the other hunters using specified weapons would have to give up something to justify the existence of another weapons group.  Whether they would be giving up some time on the current general seasons or giving up a few of the special permits.

However, I could go either way on the justification of crossbows in the Firearm Restricted areas, based on the goal of such areas: limited range due to small unit areas and density of non-hunters in the area (semi-residential/rural areas), with multiple weapons in the same area - weapon choice then becomes preference.   I could also make the argument for disabled hunters.  a hunting partner of mine lost an arm in a car accident over 10 years ago.  He has adapted, but still can't hunt archery, because he can't operate a bow with one arm.  However, He can shoot a rifle across his prosthetic arm.  The same would be true of a cross bow, or muzzleloader, however he would be much slower at reloading for a second shot.

I have never shot a cross-bow, so I am not sure how much the range is extended, if at all.  I believe the main advantages to cross bows are scopes and trigger based hold of the bow-string.  My friend who lives in Wyoming shot a nice bull in Eastern Wyoming this year with a cross bow.  But Wyoming is state where the population of game animals is much larger than the human population.  I think the justification of crossbows in Wyoming is a much easier argument to make based on length of seasons, number of animals, etc. 

[NoBark]

Considering how much opportunity they are trying take away from archers in this state, it would be better to open up these 'firearm restricted' zones to archers and NOT crossbows.

The only way it might work, would be for the holder of a modern weapon tag to hunt during modern weapon season in a restricted area with a crossbow. Period. Any harvest would be counted in with the modern weapon user group for resource allocation purposes. NO NEW GROUP!

[dreamingbig]

A crossbow is not a bow.  In my opinion, they should never be allowed in archery seasons, unless the hunter has a disabled permit.

[backyard bucks]

i have no problem with using a crossbow if people choose to do so but what i'm hearing is only in firearm restricted areas.
we already have the option of archery, muzzel, or shotgun in these areas.
how would this law change what could be harvested there.
what i'm getting at is why would someone go out and spend lots of money on a crossbow when you can pick up a shot gun with buckshot and be way more productive at harvesting an animal.

not sure why they are targeting the restricted areas that seem to be covered with options to hunt them already.

[rooselk]

Sorry.  My comment was not clear and you're right, it sounded off base.  I should have been more clear.  It is my opinion/position that crossbows have no place in WA archery seasons.  I'm sick of the Mfrs and ATA pushing crossbows as archery equipment.  Archery is archery - a bow is a bow.  A crossbow is a cross between a gun and a bow.  It is "cocked" and not held at full draw by human energy.  A crossbow fails to meet the definition of a bow, thus, it has no business being adopted as such.  I'm not some stuffy elitist.  I just think it's a different category of equipment.  It's no different that the airlines asking you to sign a firearms release form when checking a bow - I refuse to do that.  I'm not signing something that says my bow is a gun.  [Yes, I've had to fight this point with several airlines!]

bow4elk, I agree 100%. Well said.

[alanger]

i second it!             

[Snapshot]

This Youtube video demonstrates clearly why I am a proponent of the WDFW categorizing the crossbow as a modern firearm and removing it from the WAC that defines archery equipment. 1 hole groups at 100 yards (by sharpshooters), 412 fps with a 485 grain bolt... for crying out loud! A corner has been turned in crossbow technology.
 

 
So, with the exception of special use permits for the permanently disabled, I feel strongly that we need to keep it out of the primitive weapons seasons in Washington. I wrote and sent to the WDFW a new WAC specifically defining crossbow equipment so that they could remove it entirely from the archery equipment WAC, but they did not include it in their proposed 2009-11 recommendations. I am told that I first need to meet with the department's coordinator of the disabled hunter community and am very much looking forward to doing so; I want her to understand in no uncertain terms that archery hunters are very much FOR the permanently disabled having crossbow special use permits, but very much AGAINST every Tom, Dick and Harry carrying one of these contraptions around during archery season. It simply isn't a bow so it doesn't belong in bow season.
 
DS

[bow4elk]

DS, I would very much like to attend that meeting with you!  I worked on the definintion that I posted (above) from Pope and Young back in 1995.  The whole definition can be found here: http://www.pope-young.org/bowhunting_equipment.asp

You'll notice a minimum arrow length is stated as well.  Again, crossbow "bolts" do not fit the definition.

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

I guess my main concern is that they are going to end up legal during archery season and some *censored* is going to get hurt, anyone who has spent any time archery hunting has seen the idiot "hunters" riding around in the back of a pick-up, sitting in a lawn chair, with his bow on his lap. Picture the general publics opinion of the rest of us after seeing/hearing about this. I know it will be illegal, but we all know the quality of sportsmen that seem to be polluting our ranks.

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

Someone mentioned that crossbows should not have a part in Washington's "primitive weapons season." For the record, Washington has no primitive weapon season. Primitive is stick and string, nothing more (IMO). I agree about the primitive. Crossbows have been around longer than compounds, although some c-bows have compound cables and pulleys.

[Snapshot]

Archery tag holders can already hunt in firearms restriction areas. The crossbow proposal would allow the modern firearms tag holder to do the same.

Ohio has been mentioned twice on this thread, but no one has mentioned that more deer are killed in Ohio's so-called archery season with crossbows than with all the other weapons combined (longbows, recurve bows and compound-arrow-flinging-devices  ).

[robb92]

Snapshot,

Marylands 2007-2008 harvest numbers are the complete opposite:
in 2007-2008 hunting season
22,064 deer were harvested by bow
52,796 deer were harvested by shotgun
17,348 deer were harvested by muzzleloader
3,585 were harvested by crossbow.

Now when you check in your deer online it asks you what type of weapon, so granted the numbers could be off but for the most part the numbers of crossbow hunters is lower than the rest of the weapons. This past season you were allowed to use a crossbow through out the whole bow season, before the crossbow season was only for two weeks during the archery season. And you do not have to have a disablity to use the crossbow anyone can use it as long as they have an arhcery permit. 

[Snapshot]

Maryland's archery seasons were opened to crossbow use in, what, 2003 or 2004? They've been in Ohio's season for thiry-some years. Their use in Ohio rose like a bell curve, and I would think the same will be true in Maryland. Time will tell...

[robb92]

In Maryland before this season the crossbows were only allowed for a two week season. I agree time will tell, but so far the reports don't show a big increase in the numbers of deer harvested with a crossbow.

[sisu]

When cross bows are made legal for "bow" hunting I am done bow hunting in this state. A cross bow is nothing other than a gun. It's total bull *censored*. The only way I can believe a cross bow is legal is for some handicapped person that can't draw a regular bow.

[woodswalker]

for youth or disabled OR for firearms restricted areas for Modern season only.

[Snapshot]

As a 12 year old I was able to take a deer using a 40# recurve. Now there are compounds to make it even easier; so youths don't need crossbows. Only the disabled, as it stands now, in archery season (with a crossbow special use permit which isn't easy to get). And, hopefully, after next month for anyone with a modern firearms tag