Ethical to shoot past 400 yards at elk w/AR15 based rifle? Yes/No

[JimmyHoffa]

So put a different scope on the 30/06. My point is it launches heavier bullets at higher speed than any AR cartridge. Why choose an AR for a long range elk rifle? Makes no sense to me.

Maybe it was picked as primarily a med range rifle that could still have a longer range capability.  On the wetside, a 12 gauge would probably suffice for most anything but clear cuts. But you see 7mm mags all over for the occasions when an animal is out there in the cuts.  Why have a 7 mag when shooting at deer 40 yds away?

[zike]

I disagree.  Lots of small frame shooters out there that absolutely can't shoot a "standard" chambering like the 06'.  For a small framed shooter, calibers like .243, 7mm-08, anything 6.5, .257 Bob are all better suited FOR THE SHOOTER.  A comfortable shooter is an accurate shooter.

Anything 6.5? A lightweight 264 mag is a handful not as bad as the 340 Weatherby, but not for a small shooter. My Bar 300mag is easier to shoot.

[Karl Blanchard]

I disagree.  Lots of small frame shooters out there that absolutely can't shoot a "standard" chambering like the 06'.  For a small framed shooter, calibers like .243, 7mm-08, anything 6.5, .257 Bob are all better suited FOR THE SHOOTER.  A comfortable shooter is an accurate shooter.

Anything 6.5? A lightweight 264 mag is a handful not as bad as the 340 Weatherby, but not for a small shooter. My Bar 300mag is easier to shoot.

  sorry, ALMOST every 6.5

[JDHasty]

I agree- bigger than 30/06 is even better. But the 30/06 is a nice standard cartridge that most people can shoot well.

I disagree.  Lots of small frame shooters out there that absolutely can't shoot a "standard" chambering like the 06'.  For a small framed shooter, calibers like .243, 7mm-08, anything 6.5, .257 Bob are all better suited FOR THE SHOOTER.  A comfortable shooter is an accurate shooter.

Yeah, that's why I said "most people." The 30/06 with a 150 grain bullet at 3,000 fps really doesn't kick that much.

The clique arguing this have made it their life's work to validate the AR15 platform as something that excels at a job it is marginally capable of in the hands of an expert marksman/experienced hunter and seek to expand its acceptance and use for that task by the general public. 

I will never see it as being as good a choice as anything in the  270, 30-06 class on up for the very reasons I have stated.  In fact when compared to many of the 308 based cartridges anything that an AR15 will handle comes in second and by a wide margin simply because the former launch heavier bullets, with higher balistic coefficients and higher sectional densities at higher velocities.  That means higher retained velocity and energy on impact, all else being equal higher sectional densities ensure greater penetration and the law of conservation of momentum is as unimpeachable as the law of gravity.  A bullet with higher mass AND velocity on impact benefits from both and to their chagrin I don't and never will believe their claims of super human abilities to dope wind and am rather skeptical that any of them can actually shoot half minute groups under field conditions at 400+ yards.  I don't doubt that some of them MAY have done so once or twice, but I have my doubt that any of them could shoot a five shot, half minute, four hundred yard group on demand in the field, in the wind. 


To accept that this is plausible would also demand that i believe that they posses wind doping abilities that simply and demonstrably not credible.  Bench rest shoots are held, across the nation, at half or a quarter of the ranges they claim to be able to shoot half inch groups at and if you have ever attended a bench rest match there are wind flags all the way out to the target and still the best precision shooters in the world have more problem doping the wind than they do any other aspect of the game they play.  To suggest that acquiring an AR upper in 6.5G automatically makes you some kind of wind doping oracle just doesn't pass the straight face test.

[grundy53]

Incredible...

Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk

[jackelope]

So put a different scope on the 30/06. My point is it launches heavier bullets at higher speed than any AR cartridge. Why choose an AR for a long range elk rifle? Makes no sense to me.

Hell a 50 launches a bigger bullet than a 06. Why not pick a 50?
Different strokes for different folks.
I agree a 06 has more power. But a 6.5 at has plenty of killing force which has been proven in this thread.
A bad shot with a 06 isn't much better than a bad shot with a 6.5. Still a bad shot

I don't know diddly about AR rifles but it seems as though I can buy a .50BMG upper to fit an AR15 lower.
http://www.tactilite.com/Spartan-50-BMG-Upper-Receiver-p/s1.htm
That would probably kill an elk or 5 with one shot at 496 yards.
 

[jackelope]

I agree- bigger than 30/06 is even better. But the 30/06 is a nice standard cartridge that most people can shoot well.

I disagree.  Lots of small frame shooters out there that absolutely can't shoot a "standard" chambering like the 06'.  For a small framed shooter, calibers like .243, 7mm-08, anything 6.5, .257 Bob are all better suited FOR THE SHOOTER.  A comfortable shooter is an accurate shooter.

Is that why you shoot a .243?
 

[jackelope]

I agree- bigger than 30/06 is even better. But the 30/06 is a nice standard cartridge that most people can shoot well.

I disagree.  Lots of small frame shooters out there that absolutely can't shoot a "standard" chambering like the 06'.  For a small framed shooter, calibers like .243, 7mm-08, anything 6.5, .257 Bob are all better suited FOR THE SHOOTER.  A comfortable shooter is an accurate shooter.

Yeah, that's why I said "most people." The 30/06 with a 150 grain bullet at 3,000 fps really doesn't kick that much.

The clique arguing this have made it their life's work to validate the AR15 platform as something that excels at a job it is marginally capable of in the hands of an expert marksman/experienced hunter and seek to expand its acceptance and use for that task by the general public. 

I will never see it as being as good a choice as anything in the  270, 30-06 class on up for the very reasons I have stated.  In fact when compared to many of the 308 based cartridges anything that an AR15 will handle comes in second and by a wide margin simply because the former launch heavier bullets, with higher balistic coefficients and higher sectional densities at higher velocities.  That means higher retained velocity and energy on impact, all else being equal higher sectional densities ensure greater penetration and the law of conservation of momentum is as unimpeachable as the law of gravity.  A bullet with higher mass AND velocity on impact benefits from both and to their chagrin I don't and never will believe their claims of super human abilities to dope wind and am rather skeptical that any of them can actually shoot half minute groups under field conditions at 400+ yards.  I don't doubt that some of them MAY have done so once or twice, but I have my doubt that any of them could shoot a five shot, half minute, four hundred yard group on demand in the field, in the wind. 


To accept that this is plausible would also demand that i believe that they posses wind doping abilities that simply and demonstrably not credible. Bench rest shoots are held, across the nation, at half or a quarter of the ranges they claim to be able to shoot half inch groups at and if you have ever attended a bench rest match there are wind flags all the way out to the target and still the best precision shooters in the world have more problem doping the wind than they do any other aspect of the game they play.  To suggest that acquiring an AR upper in 6.5G automatically makes you some kind of wind doping oracle just doesn't pass the straight face test.

I can't speak for wind doping and all that other mumbo jumbo. My longest confirmed kill is 299 yards with a .30-06 with a 3-9x scope(I know, crazy talk) but what I do know is the shooting that I've seen displayed on this forum by the "clique" you're referring to leads me to never, ever question their shooting abilities or their product knowledge. Just sayin...

[EmeraldBullet]

I understand I'm not a pro hunter, but I wouldn't attempt that. I agree though that just cause I know I cant do that it doesn't mean someone else could. Although I kinda question why you would want to, why not just use an ar-10 and be sure you can kill the target humanely? I'm not here to judge though, to each there own.

[BULLBLASTER]

I agree- bigger than 30/06 is even better. But the 30/06 is a nice standard cartridge that most people can shoot well.

I disagree.  Lots of small frame shooters out there that absolutely can't shoot a "standard" chambering like the 06'.  For a small framed shooter, calibers like .243, 7mm-08, anything 6.5, .257 Bob are all better suited FOR THE SHOOTER.  A comfortable shooter is an accurate shooter.

Is that why you shoot a .243?
 

Well played sir! 

[Biggerhammer]

When I've killed big game animals with a cartridge like this (.450 Ultra Magnum). It's nice to take the skill set back to the other extreme, as in comparing cartridge size and capacity(6.5 Grendel) and still get the job done cleanly.

[jackelope]

I understand I'm not a pro hunter, but I wouldn't attempt that. I agree though that just cause I know I cant do that it doesn't mean someone else could. Although I kinda question why you would want to, why not just use an ar-10 and be sure you can kill the target humanely? I'm not here to judge though, to each there own.

I think they are sure they can make humane kills with the gear in hand. I'd wager there's not a lot of guess work going into this.

[Karl Blanchard]

I agree- bigger than 30/06 is even better. But the 30/06 is a nice standard cartridge that most people can shoot well.

I disagree.  Lots of small frame shooters out there that absolutely can't shoot a "standard" chambering like the 06'.  For a small framed shooter, calibers like .243, 7mm-08, anything 6.5, .257 Bob are all better suited FOR THE SHOOTER.  A comfortable shooter is an accurate shooter.

Is that why you shoot a .243?
 

    I literally laughed out loud.

[Karl Blanchard]

I agree- bigger than 30/06 is even better. But the 30/06 is a nice standard cartridge that most people can shoot well.

I disagree.  Lots of small frame shooters out there that absolutely can't shoot a "standard" chambering like the 06'.  For a small framed shooter, calibers like .243, 7mm-08, anything 6.5, .257 Bob are all better suited FOR THE SHOOTER.  A comfortable shooter is an accurate shooter.

Yeah, that's why I said "most people." The 30/06 with a 150 grain bullet at 3,000 fps really doesn't kick that much.

The clique arguing this have made it their life's work to validate the AR15 platform as something that excels at a job it is marginally capable of in the hands of an expert marksman/experienced hunter and seek to expand its acceptance and use for that task by the general public. 

I will never see it as being as good a choice as anything in the  270, 30-06 class on up for the very reasons I have stated.  In fact when compared to many of the 308 based cartridges anything that an AR15 will handle comes in second and by a wide margin simply because the former launch heavier bullets, with higher balistic coefficients and higher sectional densities at higher velocities.  That means higher retained velocity and energy on impact, all else being equal higher sectional densities ensure greater penetration and the law of conservation of momentum is as unimpeachable as the law of gravity.  A bullet with higher mass AND velocity on impact benefits from both and to their chagrin I don't and never will believe their claims of super human abilities to dope wind and am rather skeptical that any of them can actually shoot half minute groups under field conditions at 400+ yards.  I don't doubt that some of them MAY have done so once or twice, but I have my doubt that any of them could shoot a five shot, half minute, four hundred yard group on demand in the field, in the wind. 


To accept that this is plausible would also demand that i believe that they posses wind doping abilities that simply and demonstrably not credible.  Bench rest shoots are held, across the nation, at half or a quarter of the ranges they claim to be able to shoot half inch groups at and if you have ever attended a bench rest match there are wind flags all the way out to the target and still the best precision shooters in the world have more problem doping the wind than they do any other aspect of the game they play.  To suggest that acquiring an AR upper in 6.5G automatically makes you some kind of wind doping oracle just doesn't pass the straight face test.

There is not a single comment or person commenting on this thread that said the 6.5 G is better suited to long range work than a stanndard long action caliber.  The quotes you attempted to use were in reference to recoil.   I've had a lot of fun with this thread but you continue to discredit the abilities of others that you do not know.  I don't know about anyone else but I do not consider 400 yards "long range".  Is it towards the outer limits of the 6.5G? Possibly, but it is not long range in my opinion.

[runamuk]

So put a different scope on the 30/06. My point is it launches heavier bullets at higher speed than any AR cartridge. Why choose an AR for a long range elk rifle? Makes no sense to me.

Hell a 50 launches a bigger bullet than a 06. Why not pick a 50?
Different strokes for different folks.
I agree a 06 has more power. But a 6.5 at has plenty of killing force which has been proven in this thread.
A bad shot with a 06 isn't much better than a bad shot with a 6.5. Still a bad shot

I don't know diddly about AR rifles but it seems as though I can buy a .50BMG upper to fit an AR15 lower.
http://www.tactilite.com/Spartan-50-BMG-Upper-Receiver-p/s1.htm
That would probably kill an elk or 5 with one shot at 496 yards.
 

Hey that's pretty cool, why would do you bring and argument that nulls the original argument which is exactly what you just did.    that's almost as awesome as that one exchange.