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Author Topic: New Elk Starving Videos Mt Saint Helens.  (Read 39160 times)

Offline FrankDown

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Re: New Elk Starving Videos Mt Saint Helens.
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2009, 10:32:37 PM »
I looked through the rescue preservation website again this afternoon.  I ran across where he references reading “Playing God in Yellowstone -- The Destruction of America’s First National Park” by Alston Chase.  I ordered the book this afternoon and will read it when I get it out of curiosity.  What I can see it is critical of management systems that the park system employs about its elk management program.  The review of the book pretty much sums up what I have found about the book without reading it myself.  I am interested to see what it talks about.  It is a dated publication however, being written in 1987, more than 20 years ago...


Quote
By  Swami B "Swami B" (Harlem, NY USA) - See all my reviews

"Playing God in Yellowstone" by Alston Chase is a scathing indictment of the National Park Service, detailing its many misguided attempts to preserve wildlife while making Yellowstone National Park a tourist hotspot. The federal agency's conflicted mission resulted in the park service's becoming the largest killer of animal life in the park, routinely exterminating wolves, bears, mountain lions, big horn sheep, and elk.

The book also shows how politics trumped science routinely in deciding park policy. Decisions were made to preserve some animal species while eliminating others, without the benefit of any detailed biological studies of the park's ecosystem, which historically was not necessarily a natural habitat for many species found there at the beginning of the 20th century (farmers and cattlemen had cordoned off many grazing areas that antelope and other species had used for millenia). The park service favored elk, because they were popular with tourists, but the elk herds were enormously destructive in eating their way through all available food sources that other species needed to survive. What did the park service do when the elk herd grew too large? Shipped the animals to other parks, and arranged for mass slaughters to keep the herds in check.

The park service also ignored the fact that Native Americans were not the nature-loving shepherds of the forest so often depicted in media portrayals. They employed forest fires as a means of driving game into areas where they could be hunted, and nearly exterminated many species before the white man arrived. (Although Chase does cite scientific studies that show the benefit of forest fires in helping to renew the environment for a wide variety of plant and animal species.)

Meanwhile, such "watchdog" groups as the National Audobon Society, the Nature Conservancy, the Boone and Crockett Club, the Wilderness Society, and World Wildlife Fund were guided by former park service and Department of Interior officials, and tacitly endorsed policies that destroyed much of the natural environment. They, and the Sierra Club, encouraged people to visit the national parks, while conveniently ignoring the hugely destructive effects that hikers and campers wrought on forest areas.

The endless God-like tinkering demonstrates a litany of unintended consequences. This book should be required reading for anyone who wants to understand the pitfalls of misguided environmental policies.

Offline KillzElk

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Re: New Elk Starving Videos Mt Saint Helens.
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2009, 10:43:45 PM »
That book looks to me it maybe very interesting & will shed some more light on the problems that are taking place here and the future to come but with NO control over the weather elements and the decisions some people make . You will have to keep us all updated on your finding once you receive it.. :tup:

Offline elkangel

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Re: New Elk Starving Videos Mt Saint Helens.
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2009, 10:58:12 PM »
The Concern to the long hunting season as an affect to the  problem extends from the season starting in September and ending in January. The WDFW has gone to the well one to many times, they hammer the same (GMU's), with the same limited access that hunters  cover every day till January.  Either scouting, deer hunting archery, muzzle loader, then elk archery, muzzle loader, then deer modern firearm, elk modern firearm, late archery deer and elk, late muzzle loader.  this does not cover the multiple special tags and advanced hunter permits.   The problem is that no one gets any type of quality hunting, it's based more on just luck.  The access is so poor in the area that you can only cover it on weekends when and if open. If gates are open during the week there are so many hunter driving into the area you would do better to sell hot dogs and coffee.  The rest of the season hunter walk, ride bikes and horses.  Or their are a few that find State land to camp on during the week, so the stay there and drive behind the gates during the week.   All this leads to a constant push from limited access general season areas to drive elk into the limited tag areas or closed areas were there is less pressure.  The elk herd up and spend more time in these areas depleting the habitat at faster rates due to the travel, stress and numbers.  As an example the WDFW has kept the Winston until open as a catch all for every special tag and permit in addition to the always open either sex archery season.  This area is one of the highest per hunter day areas in the State. 

And now the rest of the story, loving wildlife to death, just when the hunting season ends people start heading into the deep winter woods looking for antlers, deer sheds of coarse, in January thru February.  But, you can't help but run into elk and chase them around, scouting for the elk shed that will start in March and April.   During these times the elk are easy to find herded up in the valleys close in searching for food to get through winter.   So in reality they are pursued in poor condition 7 months of the year.

So, this is the reality of the pursuit, stress and harassment, unintended by people who are just trying to enjoy themselves.

If you are siting there saying this guy is full of S--t, ask yourself, how stressed do you get hunting these days?


Offline bbarnes

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Re: New Elk Starving Videos Mt Saint Helens.
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2009, 11:12:48 PM »
   Hello hunters conservationist and outdoorsman,the you tube video has sparked some intrest.I will address everyone concerns Thursday evening ,thanks for all of your comments B Barnes KEEPING OUR PUBLIC LANDS PUBLIC.

Offline FrankDown

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Re: New Elk Starving Videos Mt Saint Helens.
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2009, 12:06:16 AM »
I am not familiar with the regulations for the area, but it seems that something is out of balance.  It looks like theres not enough food to sustain the amount of elk that are on the area.  Feeding them sounds like a temporary solution.  What ahas the wdfg said about the numbers and their management other than relying on the permit system that sounds llike it isnt working?

The website says that they feed 80 elk over 100 private acres.  Is this current information?

Quote
It is a permit hunt area only and there is two many elk in the area for the available vegetation.

As far as eco park I looked at their website and all I see is hunting lodge settings fore 110 dollars a day and fishing and bus tours.  They did email me and said that they allow the elk to be fed on their property.

I am also curious to know what direction they are following in their moethods of reforestation and management techniques.  Are these under supervision of the fish and game department, a biologist, or from studies, or something that is done grass roots guerilla style?  I see that reforestation processes had been started, I was just wondering what management systems were being followed and how they have been proven or worked in other areas.

Once again, I dont want this to be taken as an attack or flame about you guys trying to take care of the elk.  I am curious about this and am just asking questions about it.

Offline CastleRocker

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Re: New Elk Starving Videos Mt Saint Helens.
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2009, 12:36:42 AM »
I've been reading this thread, and I've got the throw my two cents worth in.  GMU 522 has more dead elk in it every year than anywhere else that I'm aware of.  There is NO hunting in 522, hasn't been since the mountain blew in 1980.  There are way too many elk in that unit all year long, not just in the winter.  Mark Smith lives on the edge of that unit and and the Margret and across the river is the Toutle unit.  As far "over hunting" goes....well, the Margret and Toutle are draw only hunts for elk.   Yes, there is pressure but the woods are mostly closed by Weyerhaeuser for early archery season due to "fire danger".  My Dad has been drawn twice and got his points back once because there was NO access.  That means you are not allowed to walk in or ride a bike or anything.  The Lewis River unit which takes in the entire South side has no late season.  Check your game pamphlet.  If you want to see hunting pressure go up into the Coweeman or the Ryderwood units during modern firearm elk season!  Wow!  Those units have early, mid, and late season.  I don't even like to go out there that time of year.  

I've been to most of the public meetings that are held locally concerning the status of the Volcanic National Monument, (most with little or no notice), and I have been impressed with what Mark is says and what he is trying to do.  When he says "preserve", I get the impression he wants to preserve the recreation activities that we currently have.  Which meens NO national park, etc.  He makes most of his fall/winter income from the hunting public that stays at his Eco-Park.  He was a driving factor to get the indians to stop shooting (poaching) the elk around the area in  the last 15 years.  He has done some good things, and I think his heart is in the right place.   He spoke (in opposition) at the last meeting that was held concerning the huge mine that they are trying to push through at the head of the Green River.  Right in the middle of the wintering area for that part of the mountain.  THAT would be a disaster for those elk.  Like I said, I think he is on the right track.  

As far as the "St.Helens" herd that I see people refer to....where is it located?  Is it ONLY in the blast zone?  Or over in the Green River drainage?  (We found 33 dead elk there last spring, and those were just the ones we saw).  Is it the South Toutle drainage?  Is it the Muddy River?  (Found 16 dead ones there last spring and we only went up there one afternoon).  Or is it the elk that die over in the Smith Creek/Ape Canyon flat?  There is a LOT of country surrounding this mountain....and last year was especially hard on them.  

I saw the hoof-rot subject brought up too.  We spend quite a bit of time up in the hills and I have not seen one case of hoof rot up there.  We had seven (that we found) die last spring out behind our house, (Ryderwood unit).  They all had hoof rot, and all of them spent a lot of time in the pastures.  That seems to be the elk that get hoof-rot the most, at least what I've seen personally.  The bull my son took this year had it, and it was feeding in or around the field most of the summer.  There aren't any pastures in the Margret or Toutle units.  The flats in the Loowit could qualify as a pasture in places I suppose.  So maybe they have a hoof-rot issue there.  I've lived in the area all of my life and I love it here.  I guess I threw in more than my two cents, more like a dime, but this is a subject that is near and dear to my all family and myself.



Work to live, don't live to work.

You can educate away ignorance, sober up drunkenness, but you can't fix stupid.

Offline colockumelk

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Re: New Elk Starving Videos Mt Saint Helens.
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2009, 12:06:37 PM »
The point of these videos is to raise awareness on Mt Saint Helens , And the surrounding areas.
#1 Over pursuit of the wildlife.  *Hunting seasons are to long in this area*.
#2 Animals are over stressed and under nourished, due to lack of habitat.
#3 Due to herbicide & pesticide spays on the clear cut there is NO FOOD.
#4 The worst winter on record since 1937.
#5 People need to take a active roll in helping the wildlife survive so we will have animals to hunt.
#6 Ask yourself what you can do to be Postive part of fixing this problem.
#7 This take a HUGE amount of time & money to do all of this. Any Donations would be greatly appreciated. With labor or dollars.
#8 Alfalfa is $300/ton or $20/bale
 

$300 dollars a ton! WTF where do you buy hay from.  At the most hay here is 150 a ton.  Man you guys are getting hosed big time.   
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 10:51:34 AM by bobcat »
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Author: George Orwell

Offline Guns4Fun

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Re: New Elk Starving Videos Mt Saint Helens.
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2009, 01:22:48 PM »
 

"If you are not part of the solution your part of the problem"

What are you doing to insure that there will be elk available to hunt in the future?

Also, if you have got the hook up on Alfalfa for $150 a ton why don't you give the guy a call!

Offline woodywsu

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Re: New Elk Starving Videos Mt Saint Helens.
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2009, 01:30:59 PM »


"If you are not part of the solution your part of the problem"

What are you doing to insure that there will be elk available to hunt in the future?

Also, if you have got the hook up on Alfalfa for $150 a ton why don't you give the guy a call!

As far as I know, I can't think of a place to find alfalfa for $300 a ton. Everywhere you look is a hell of a lot cheaper than that.

Offline FrankDown

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Re: New Elk Starving Videos Mt Saint Helens.
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2009, 02:29:13 PM »
Maybe he is figuring the alfalfa, the gas for his sleds to pull it in tehre, the time to do so, the money to get roads snow plowed ectetera.  If so he should say that it costs that much to get it on the ground at the feed station.

Offline Slamadoo

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Re: New Elk Starving Videos Mt Saint Helens.
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2009, 04:00:36 PM »
I think it would be a good cause. I would just like to know more about this organization. Also, I agree with others that this is a short term fix for a long term problem.

What these elk really need is more winter range. Maybe a few more cows harvested out of these units. How about some more logging in the area or a good forest fire.

Offline saudog

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Re: New Elk Starving Videos Mt Saint Helens.
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2009, 04:31:40 PM »
I've been reading this thread, and I've got the throw my two cents worth in.  GMU 522 has more dead elk in it every year than anywhere else that I'm aware of.  There is NO hunting in 522, hasn't been since the mountain blew in 1980.  There are way too many elk in that unit all year long, not just in the winter.  Mark Smith lives on the edge of that unit and and the Margret and across the river is the Toutle unit.  As far "over hunting" goes....well, the Margret and Toutle are draw only hunts for elk.   Yes, there is pressure but the woods are mostly closed by Weyerhaeuser for early archery season due to "fire danger".  My Dad has been drawn twice and got his points back once because there was NO access.  That means you are not allowed to walk in or ride a bike or anything.  The Lewis River unit which takes in the entire South side has no late season.  Check your game pamphlet.  If you want to see hunting pressure go up into the Coweeman or the Ryderwood units during modern firearm elk season!  Wow!  Those units have early, mid, and late season.  I don't even like to go out there that time of year.  

I've been to most of the public meetings that are held locally concerning the status of the Volcanic National Monument, (most with little or no notice), and I have been impressed with what Mark is says and what he is trying to do.  When he says "preserve", I get the impression he wants to preserve the recreation activities that we currently have.  Which meens NO national park, etc.  He makes most of his fall/winter income from the hunting public that stays at his Eco-Park.  He was a driving factor to get the indians to stop shooting (poaching) the elk around the area in  the last 15 years.  He has done some good things, and I think his heart is in the right place.   He spoke (in opposition) at the last meeting that was held concerning the huge mine that they are trying to push through at the head of the Green River.  Right in the middle of the wintering area for that part of the mountain.  THAT would be a disaster for those elk.  Like I said, I think he is on the right track.  

As far as the "St.Helens" herd that I see people refer to....where is it located?  Is it ONLY in the blast zone?  Or over in the Green River drainage?  (We found 33 dead elk there last spring, and those were just the ones we saw).  Is it the South Toutle drainage?  Is it the Muddy River?  (Found 16 dead ones there last spring and we only went up there one afternoon).  Or is it the elk that die over in the Smith Creek/Ape Canyon flat?  There is a LOT of country surrounding this mountain....and last year was especially hard on them.  

I saw the hoof-rot subject brought up too.  We spend quite a bit of time up in the hills and I have not seen one case of hoof rot up there.  We had seven (that we found) die last spring out behind our house, (Ryderwood unit).  They all had hoof rot, and all of them spent a lot of time in the pastures.  That seems to be the elk that get hoof-rot the most, at least what I've seen personally.  The bull my son took this year had it, and it was feeding in or around the field most of the summer.  There aren't any pastures in the Margret or Toutle units.  The flats in the Loowit could qualify as a pasture in places I suppose.  So maybe they have a hoof-rot issue there.  I've lived in the area all of my life and I love it here.  I guess I threw in more than my two cents, more like a dime, but this is a subject that is near and dear to my all family and myself.






I too live in this area and hunt it.  CastleRocker has sums it up pretty well.  There are multiple heards around the mountain and multiple GMU's.  They all have different issues but the Loo-Wit unit plays a role in all of the problems.  The Toutle, Lewis River, and Margaret units all lead up to the Loo-Wit.  Development around all of these units have limited the wintering areas and logging mismanagement (overspraying in the private timberlands and underlogging in the national forest) has limited the food further.  Underhunting around the mountain has lead to overpopulation.

All of these issues combined with back-to-back winters that are perfectly suited to winter kill (snow falling early and oftern and then late into the spring) has lead to the situation at hand.

The thing that disappoints the most is that there was no mention in the recent proposals of modifying the hunting seasons around the mountain to try and fix the problem.  I'm all for the grass roots efforts that are taking place and I appriciate the input from those that are close to the situation.

Offline saudog

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Re: New Elk Starving Videos Mt Saint Helens.
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2009, 04:38:50 PM »
All I know is from reading this thread is that the few people that are really pushing for this guy all seem to be new to the sight and are all pretty ill tempered?!?! What is with that???


What I have gathered is that the people that are for helping this cause are close to the area and hunt up there.  If you are not familiar with the situation it is hard to understand.  I'm not saying people that don't live/hunt there shouldn't comment but they should realize that the issues aren't black and white.

I would agree that bbarnes has a hard time displaying where he is really coming from with his movement but I know he is pro-hunting, doesn't want the elk to just starve up there and die, and he is against turning the area into a National Park ala the Mt. Rainier experiance.

Offline FrankDown

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Re: New Elk Starving Videos Mt Saint Helens.
« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2009, 05:20:50 PM »
Im definately not against him, but Id like to know more about where he stands on the two issues that I inquired about.  The jist of what I am saying is that if Im going to give hard earned money to an organization Id like to know where its going and what they stand for in terms to my interest and goals.

I started writing letters, emails, and making calls about 8 years ago and strted advocating pro trapping, fishing, and hunting issues (guns included).  I want to continue to be able to hunt, fish, and trap (and own and use firearms responsibly).  I want my children to be able to hunt, fish, and trap (and have strted them on it already).  I dont think its too much to ask to know a position on a group before I send them money.  Theres a lot of anti hunting and animal use groups that want to stop the taking of game.  They may advocate the health of animals (which I have no problems with) but they want to stop hunting and management.  I dont want to fund those types of groups or issues.  Im not angry about this, I just want to know his positions.

Offline colockumelk

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Re: New Elk Starving Videos Mt Saint Helens.
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2009, 07:10:57 PM »


"If you are not part of the solution your part of the problem"

What are you doing to insure that there will be elk available to hunt in the future?

Also, if you have got the hook up on Alfalfa for $150 a ton why don't you give the guy a call!

I am definately not part of the problem.  I don't have any hookups.  All he has to do is buy his hay in Ellensburg and he can get it for that cheap.  You ask what am I doin to insure there are elk in the future.  Myself and Frank are putting together a group to put a stop to all the Indian poaching that goes on for starters.  So maybe the mature bulls will make it through the winter without being shot off the back of  a snowmobile.  What are you doing to insure that there will be elk available to hunt in the future?
"We Sleep Safe In Our Beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those that would do us harm."
Author: George Orwell

 


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