If you were to design a wildcat, what would it be?

[jjhunter]

When Kirby Allen was frist building me a rifle I was going to go with his 277 Allen Mag which is a 338 Lapua, improved to his shoulder, necked down to .277 but the supply of 169.5 Wildcat bullets ceased to exist so went with a 300AX for the, new then, 230 Bergers.

But, with Berger now offering a 170gr high BC 270 bullet, a 270-338 Lap. Imp. could be a lot more fun.

A few years ago I talked to Kirby about doing a joint venture on a 375-416Barrett with Kirby's proprietary taper and shoulder angle.  I thought it could be a fun project and give a sizable increase in velocity over the 375-408 CHEYTAC imp. stuff but he didn't think the increase would be substantial enough to warrant the expense.  I still think a 375-416 Barrett Improved would be pretty cool.  There was a guy over on long range hunting dot com that assembled the parts and pieces to build one but if I recall he developed health issues and it never progressed beyond him getting all the stuff to build it.

I checked out some potential ballistics, this is interesting!

Kirby is an interesting cat, he is married to my cousin.  He has logged every bullet he has sent down range going all the way back to when he was a kid.  I have some prints of his artwork (a mule deer and a bighorn print, I wish I had more) it is in extremely high demand and sells for a pretty penny these days, it has been decades since he has done any artwork, gun smithing takes up all of his time.

A buddy had him build a 338.  Sent him all of the components and paid in advance.  Took over 3 years to get the finished rifle.  Sounded like a nightmare experience. 

[yorketransport]

A buddy had him build a 338.  Sent him all of the components and paid in advance.  Took over 3 years to get the finished rifle.  Sounded like a nightmare experience.

I've heard this from others too. Great products, innovative designs, obscene lead times!

I've been working on a new idea for a few days now. I need somebody to make me some lead core 600gr VLDs in .458 diameter though.

   Necked down 50?

Pretty close, 416 Barrett.  The full sized 50 is just excessive!

[JDHasty]

When Kirby Allen was frist building me a rifle I was going to go with his 277 Allen Mag which is a 338 Lapua, improved to his shoulder, necked down to .277 but the supply of 169.5 Wildcat bullets ceased to exist so went with a 300AX for the, new then, 230 Bergers.

But, with Berger now offering a 170gr high BC 270 bullet, a 270-338 Lap. Imp. could be a lot more fun.

A few years ago I talked to Kirby about doing a joint venture on a 375-416Barrett with Kirby's proprietary taper and shoulder angle.  I thought it could be a fun project and give a sizable increase in velocity over the 375-408 CHEYTAC imp. stuff but he didn't think the increase would be substantial enough to warrant the expense.  I still think a 375-416 Barrett Improved would be pretty cool.  There was a guy over on long range hunting dot com that assembled the parts and pieces to build one but if I recall he developed health issues and it never progressed beyond him getting all the stuff to build it.

I checked out some potential ballistics, this is interesting!

Kirby is an interesting cat, he is married to my cousin.  He has logged every bullet he has sent down range going all the way back to when he was a kid.  I have some prints of his artwork (a mule deer and a bighorn print, I wish I had more) it is in extremely high demand and sells for a pretty penny these days, it has been decades since he has done any artwork, gun smithing takes up all of his time.

A buddy had him build a 338.  Sent him all of the components and paid in advance.  Took over 3 years to get the finished rifle.  Sounded like a nightmare experience.

Kirby is a one-man shop and people in line ahead of your buddy knew that and people in line behind your buddy knew that going in.  How is it that your buddy did not know how long it would be before the rifle was delivered?  I have never bought a gun from Kirby, but I have known for well over a decade that it will be many years wait to have Kirby build you a gun.   

[jjhunter]

When Kirby Allen was frist building me a rifle I was going to go with his 277 Allen Mag which is a 338 Lapua, improved to his shoulder, necked down to .277 but the supply of 169.5 Wildcat bullets ceased to exist so went with a 300AX for the, new then, 230 Bergers.

But, with Berger now offering a 170gr high BC 270 bullet, a 270-338 Lap. Imp. could be a lot more fun.

A few years ago I talked to Kirby about doing a joint venture on a 375-416Barrett with Kirby's proprietary taper and shoulder angle.  I thought it could be a fun project and give a sizable increase in velocity over the 375-408 CHEYTAC imp. stuff but he didn't think the increase would be substantial enough to warrant the expense.  I still think a 375-416 Barrett Improved would be pretty cool.  There was a guy over on long range hunting dot com that assembled the parts and pieces to build one but if I recall he developed health issues and it never progressed beyond him getting all the stuff to build it.

I checked out some potential ballistics, this is interesting!

Kirby is an interesting cat, he is married to my cousin.  He has logged every bullet he has sent down range going all the way back to when he was a kid.  I have some prints of his artwork (a mule deer and a bighorn print, I wish I had more) it is in extremely high demand and sells for a pretty penny these days, it has been decades since he has done any artwork, gun smithing takes up all of his time.

A buddy had him build a 338.  Sent him all of the components and paid in advance.  Took over 3 years to get the finished rifle.  Sounded like a nightmare experience.

Kirby is a one-man shop and people in line ahead of your buddy knew that and people in line behind your buddy knew that going in.  How is it that your buddy did not know how long it would be before the rifle was delivered?  I have never bought a gun from Kirby, but I have known for well over a decade that it will be many years wait to have Kirby build you a gun.

Most builders are "one man shops"   

This is a guy with 20 plus full customs from the best builders all over the country.   He is aware of the time frame expectation in receiving a quality product and believe me, he would not send thousands of dollars in components before he knew every detail of your operation and when he could expect the completed product.

I know that it got to the point that he had basically written off ever seeing a completed rifle or his components again.   This is very recent.

[jasnt]

A buddy had him build a 338.  Sent him all of the components and paid in advance.  Took over 3 years to get the finished rifle.  Sounded like a nightmare experience.

I've heard this from others too. Great products, innovative designs, obscene lead times!

I've been working on a new idea for a few days now. I need somebody to make me some lead core 600gr VLDs in .458 diameter though.

   Necked down 50?

Pretty close, 416 Barrett.  The full sized 50 is just excessive!

45/416 Barrett sounds very interesting. Wonder why Berger hasn't expanded their caliber line past 338?  600gr vld in 458 would give the 750 amax a run for its money I'd bet

[JDHasty]

When Kirby Allen was frist building me a rifle I was going to go with his 277 Allen Mag which is a 338 Lapua, improved to his shoulder, necked down to .277 but the supply of 169.5 Wildcat bullets ceased to exist so went with a 300AX for the, new then, 230 Bergers.

But, with Berger now offering a 170gr high BC 270 bullet, a 270-338 Lap. Imp. could be a lot more fun.

A few years ago I talked to Kirby about doing a joint venture on a 375-416Barrett with Kirby's proprietary taper and shoulder angle.  I thought it could be a fun project and give a sizable increase in velocity over the 375-408 CHEYTAC imp. stuff but he didn't think the increase would be substantial enough to warrant the expense.  I still think a 375-416 Barrett Improved would be pretty cool.  There was a guy over on long range hunting dot com that assembled the parts and pieces to build one but if I recall he developed health issues and it never progressed beyond him getting all the stuff to build it.

I checked out some potential ballistics, this is interesting!

Kirby is an interesting cat, he is married to my cousin.  He has logged every bullet he has sent down range going all the way back to when he was a kid.  I have some prints of his artwork (a mule deer and a bighorn print, I wish I had more) it is in extremely high demand and sells for a pretty penny these days, it has been decades since he has done any artwork, gun smithing takes up all of his time.

A buddy had him build a 338.  Sent him all of the components and paid in advance.  Took over 3 years to get the finished rifle.  Sounded like a nightmare experience.

Kirby is a one-man shop and people in line ahead of your buddy knew that and people in line behind your buddy knew that going in.  How is it that your buddy did not know how long it would be before the rifle was delivered?  I have never bought a gun from Kirby, but I have known for well over a decade that it will be many years wait to have Kirby build you a gun.

Most builders are "one man shops"   

This is a guy with 20 plus full customs from the best builders all over the country.   He is aware of the time frame expectation in receiving a quality product and believe me, he would not send thousands of dollars in components before he knew every detail of your operation and when he could expect the completed product.

I know that it got to the point that he had basically written off ever seeing a completed rifle or his components again.   This is very recent.

Ten years ago a rifle from Kirby was at least two years out, over five years ago I know that the wait time was something like three years and that is because a guy from work was asking me if I could help to get Kirby to deliver his rifle sooner.   

?The line keeps getting longer?  No - there is a point at which the long lead time discourages enough potential customers that the lead time steadies at some point and that point seems to be ~ three years wait.   

I really don't have much interest in owning one of Kirby's rifles, I shoot chucks and prairie dogs at 60 or 70 - 600 or so yards with rifles ranging from 22 Magnum through 243 Winchester and I have a McMillan stocked Winchester Model 70 in 300 Wby that I shoot big game with out to ~ 450 yards and they suit me just fine.  But there are enough guys who are into long range target shooting or extreme range game hunting (including varmint shooting) that Kirby's backlog seemingly keeps getting longer every time I see him.  Hey, I get to play with Allen Mags too without having to pay the entry fee. 

I suppose that it may have passed the "tipping point" at which enough people will not wait that his inflow may not be exceeding what he can turn out, and the wait may have steadied at ~ three years, but so long as the demand is there as Kirby whittles the wait time down the number of people who are willing to wait will increase as a result. 

If you want Kirby to build a rifle for you that is just how it is.   

[b23]

Ten years ago a rifle from Kirby was at least two years out, over five years ago I know that the wait time was something like three years and that is because a guy from work was asking me if I could help to get Kirby to deliver his rifle sooner.   

?The line keeps getting longer?  No - there is a point at which the long lead time discourages enough potential customers that the lead time steadies at some point and that point seems to be ~ three years wait.   

I really don't have much interest in owning one of Kirby's rifles, I shoot chucks and prairie dogs at 60 or 70 - 600 or so yards with rifles ranging from 22 Magnum through 243 Winchester and I have a McMillan stocked Winchester Model 70 in 300 Wby that I shoot big game with out to ~ 450 yards and they suit me just fine.  But there are enough guys who are into long range target shooting or extreme range game hunting (including varmint shooting) that Kirby's backlog seemingly keeps getting longer every time I see him.  Hey, I get to play with Allen Mags too without having to pay the entry fee. 

I suppose that it may have passed the "tipping point" at which enough people will not wait that his inflow may not be exceeding what he can turn out, and the wait may have steadied at ~ three years, but so long as the demand is there as Kirby whittles the wait time down the number of people who are willing to wait will increase as a result. 

If you want Kirby to build a rifle for you that is just how it is.   

I'll say this as respectfully as I can, knowing or maybe being related to Kirby and having a rifle built by him are two VASTLY different things and based on your comments, it's obvious you've never had him build you a rifle because if had, you'd likely be singing a different tune.  And as for your ten years ago, five years ago, wait times, you must be the only person that knows about that because it's certainly not what you are told when you start the build.

[JDHasty]

Ten years ago a rifle from Kirby was at least two years out, over five years ago I know that the wait time was something like three years and that is because a guy from work was asking me if I could help to get Kirby to deliver his rifle sooner.   

?The line keeps getting longer?  No - there is a point at which the long lead time discourages enough potential customers that the lead time steadies at some point (reaches equilibrium) and that point seems to be ~ three years wait.   

I really don't have much interest in owning one of Kirby's rifles, I shoot chucks and prairie dogs at 60 or 70 - 600 or so yards with rifles ranging from 22 Magnum through 243 Winchester and I have a McMillan stocked Winchester Model 70 in 300 Wby that I shoot big game with out to ~ 450 yards and they suit me just fine.  But there are enough guys who are into long range target shooting or extreme range game hunting (including varmint shooting) that Kirby's backlog seemingly keeps getting longer every time I see him.  Hey, I get to play with Allen Mags too without having to pay the entry fee. 

I suppose that it may have passed the "tipping point" at which enough people will not wait that his inflow may not be exceeding what he can turn out, and the wait may have steadied at ~ three years, but so long as the demand is there as Kirby whittles the wait time down the number of people who are willing to wait will increase as a result. 

If you want Kirby to build a rifle for you that is just how it is.   

I'll say this as respectfully as I can, knowing or maybe being related to Kirby and having a rifle built by him are two VASTLY different things and based on your comments, it's obvious you've never had him build you a rifle because if had, you'd likely be singing a different tune.  And as for your ten years ago, five years ago, wait times, you must be the only person that knows about that because it's certainly not what you are told when you start the build.

What I can say about that is: I have had complete strangers say to me that they have been waiting ... and are waiting and will have been waiting a total of ~ three years to get their new rifle from Kirby by the time they get it.  And I have had others say that they would like to have Kirby build them a rifle, but do not want to wait three years to get it.  And I have had others say:  I waited three years for this rifle and savored every minute of it.

To be quite honest this is the very first experience I have with anyone ever saying that they were not aware going in of what the lead time is/has been on Kirby's rifles.

Hand craftsmanship takes time, I have a deer at Charlie Smith's and was told two years - minimum.  The only reason it wasn't longer is because there are a lot of guys who won't or can't wait to get their mount back two years after dropping it off.  It is is more important for them to seek satisfaction elsewhere than to have Charlie do the work and wait two years.       
 

[jjhunter]

I think that B23's point is that since you don't know and haven't been in the consumer's shoes, you probably shouldn't speculate or try to downplay the experiences of those who have.

 

[JDHasty]

Here is a thread that is closing in on a decade old.  You don't get past five posts into it before there is mention made of the significant wait for Kirby to build a rifle.  This was just one of the first threads that came up when I did an internet search for Kirby Allen Rifles. 

It is not at all uncommon for some of the very first posts made on a thread mentioning Kirby's rifles for this to be the pattern.  I am not a special pleader for anybody, but in this case "who am I going to believe, you or my own lying eyes?" 

That is also what I have experienced when the topic of Kirby's rifles has come up at the gun club or anywhere else for that matter and there are individuals around who have experience dealing with Kirby.     


http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/kirby-allen-rifles-29783/

[yorketransport]

Here is a thread that is closing in on a decade old.  You don't get past five posts into it before there is mention made of the significant wait for Kirby to build a rifle.  This was just one of the first threads that came up when I did an internet search for Kirby Allen Rifles. 

It is not at all uncommon for some of the very first posts made on a thread mentioning Kirby's rifles for this to be the pattern.  I am not a special pleader for anybody, but in this case "who am I going to believe, you or my own lying eyes?" 

That is also what I have experienced when the topic of Kirby's rifles has come up at the gun club or anywhere else for that matter and there are individuals around who have experience dealing with Kirby.     


http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/kirby-allen-rifles-29783/

It's important to step back and take an objective look at the situation. It appears you have personal connection to Allen Precision (you've made reference to the relationship multiple times) so it can be hard to step back and not come to the defense of friends/family. Sometimes personal bias clouds objective thinking though.

I have/had some guns built by top name smiths which take years to build a gun. They're great guns and the detail and finish work are top notch. Or I can have a local guy slap together a pile of parts in a couple of weeks/months and get a finished product which performs just as well for a fraction of the cost in a fraction of the time. I had Benchmark build my 338/375 Ruger Stiker and it took 11 months and about $700. I love it, but that's 11 months to rebarrel a Savage. I had the idea to rebarrel my 243 Striker to 284 Winchester. I called a distributor for McGowen barrels, got a 19" varmint contour .284 blank sent to my door in about 2 weeks for about $200. Then I sent it to a buddy of mine who works in a machine shop. He's not a gunsmith, but a good machinist is a good machinist and the principals are the same. He had my barrel threaded and chambered in 2 lunch brakes for $50. I screwed the barrel onto the action and headspaced it on the tailgate of my truck while out in the woods and was shooting within 15 minutes. Wouldn't you know, I had a gun that shoots just as well as the one built by Benchmark, but built in less than 4 weeks from idea to test firing for the sum of $250.

For people like me who are constantly tinkering and have firearms ADHD, having to wait years for a project to be done is brutal! Right now I'm having a specialty pistol built which is requiring every part of it to be custom made, from the action to the stock, barrel, reamers and dies. In the time it's taken to get that project going (I'm into this over a year from the time of the initial idea) I've gotten bored and had 3 other projects done and started a 4th. Some of those were done by local shops (Grizz Precision) who did great work with very reasonable rates/turnaround times measured in weeks not years.

[JDHasty]

I can appreciate what you are saying. 

What I am saying is that the reason Kirby is ~ three years out is that is where the line of people who want an Allen rifle has reached equilibrium.  There are only so many hours in a day and Kirby is a family man and has other obligations other than to customers too.  He works probably north of 60 hours/week and he has made a decision not to farm out work or hire assistants. 

I have a hard time getting my mind around a person not being aware of the wait if he is familiar enough with Kirby's work to order a rifle.  The reason I say that is because the topic of Kirby's rifles seldom comes up wherein one or more people weigh in on the substantial lead time. 

What is more, when a Kirby Allen rifle is up for sale one of the first things that is said is:  "without waiting three years."

Accusations were thrown out for consideration (reckless accusations in my view), I responded with fact and backed up that fact with hard evidence validating it.