Blacktail questions

[Eric M]

Some of this might seem really basic to you old pros, but I am an old novice. I have been fortunate this year to find some good blacktail areas. Saw a lot of deer during the season, but couldn't close with my bow. My questions- when I'm looking at a tree that's rubbed, does the size of the tree represent the size of the animal? I am seeing all different sized trees rubbed on. Occasionally I find a medium sized to smaller shed near a tree that's rubbed and these are typically not huge but not pinky sized saplings either. Also it seems where the bucks are (or seem to be) the scat is usually more clumped together and not as "pellety" as near the areas where does seem to be. Is that typical that the bucks have different poop or am I reading more into that than I should be? Another question- There was a small bachelor group of elk around the one area just prior to them leaving for the rut. When they were around I saw only one doe. Once they left there were deer everywhere. Do deer move off in deference to the elk? Maybe it was the 3 bears I saw in there? Last question- I couldn't find anything definitive on buck to doe ratios on one of the areas I was most interested in. Having said this, I have found 2 pairs of fresh sheds this year, one deadhead that died during the rut, I saw a spike buck at seasons end, and I know of one buck that was harvested early season. This particular area isn't that big, maybe 2 miles long and a mile or 2 wide where I saw all this. Boyd Iverson says a good area can hold 80-150 deer in a square mile. That sounds like a lot. How many bucks could possibly be in an area like this? If it's 10-1 there's still some sheds out there I haven't found. I have spent a lot of hours learning what I can. Anything you guys could add is appreciated.

[fishnfur]

Somebody's still alive on this board??  No posts for days, then finally, something fun to consider.

I'm old, but I'm no pro.  Sounds like you've found a great area.  I look for sheds all the time and never ever find blacktail sheds in the coastal region. 

Per your questions:

There is considered to be a direct relationship between the size of the tree rubbed and the buck that made it.  That said, once a buck has rubbed a tree, many smaller subordinate bucks will often rub the same tree leaving their scent there as well. 

Deer droppings are not identifiable with relationship to sex.  Clumpy poo means that they are eating food with a lot of moisture in it.  As the vegetation dries out over the summer, the droppings will become single pellets.

Elk generally cause the deer to move into the peripheral areas until the elk move on.  That said, you may often see them in the same area at the same time.  I have a trail cam vid from last year in which a bull walked down the trail, then a few seconds later, a doe comes out of the bush to see what the heck just walked by.  There was a great discussion last fall about big bucks occasionally hanging out with the elk herds, possibly using them as a method of detecting predators.  I've found that areas that have a lot of elk activity generally don't have significant numbers of deer, but they may be close by.

Not many studies are done on blacktail deer.  Buck to doe ratios are always a guess.  Generally, the WDFW hopes to maintain a 15/100 ratio - bucks to does.  Who knows what the number really is.  Studies done years ago by Fish and Game on blacktail deer found that in WA and coastal OR, there are generally an average of 60 or so deer per square mile (from memory - which  ain't what it used to be, so take that number with a grain of salt).  I think the Iverson number is high.  So, yes, there are still quite a few sheds out there to be found.

Now that you know where the deer are, perhaps next season you should take a stand in a high traffic area and wait them out?

[Eric M]

Somebody's still alive on this board??  No posts for days, then finally, something fun to consider.

I'm old, but I'm no pro.  Sounds like you've found a great area.  I look for sheds all the time and never ever find blacktail sheds in the coastal region. 

Per your questions:

There is considered to be a direct relationship between the size of the tree rubbed and the buck that made it.  That said, once a buck has rubbed a tree, many smaller subordinate bucks will often rub the same tree leaving their scent there as well. 

Deer droppings are not identifiable with relationship to sex.  Clumpy poo means that they are eating food with a lot of moisture in it.  As the vegetation dries out over the summer, the droppings will become single pellets.

Elk generally cause the deer to move into the peripheral areas until the elk move on.  That said, you may often see them in the same area at the same time.  I have a trail cam vid from last year in which a bull walked down the trail, then a few seconds later, a doe comes out of the bush to see what the heck just walked by.  There was a great discussion last fall about big bucks occasionally hanging out with the elk herds, possibly using them as a method of detecting predators.  I've found that areas that have a lot of elk activity generally don't have significant numbers of deer, but they may be close by.

Not many studies are done on blacktail deer.  Buck to doe ratios are always a guess.  Generally, the WDFW hopes to maintain a 15/100 ratio - bucks to does.  Who knows what the number really is.  Studies done years ago by Fish and Game on blacktail deer found that in WA and coastal OR, there are generally an average of 60 or so deer per square mile (from memory - which  ain't what it used to be, so take that number with a grain of salt).  I think the Iverson number is high.  So, yes, there are still quite a few sheds out there to be found.

Now that you know where the deer are, perhaps next season you should take a stand in a high traffic area and wait them out?

Thanks for the response. I always appreciate your insight. My work schedule is pretty horrible this year. The only hunt for blacktail I will be home for is the 4 day late hunt. I'm debating whether or not to try. I have a stand I used a few years ago. I'd hate to sit in a stand for 3 days and realize I sat in the wrong spot! I'd be home for the elk late hunt also, which combined would be 2 or 3 weeks of hunting, but I have no idea where to find any elk yet during that time of year. (I'm hoping to remedy that in the next year or 2 of scouting). There is a whitetail hunt around then too that runs the same time as elk late hunt but I don't know where to start for them either.
Iverson I think was referring to Oregon numbers, but that's still a lot of animals. I almost can't believe there are still sheds from this year just laying on a trail. I have been out last week and this week. Before that the last time I was in the one area I'm talking about with the fresh sheds was January 29th. I found a matching set that day. Interesting about the bucks possibly using the elk to warn of predators. Blacktail don't seem to need the help.
15/100? If there's possibly 60 deer in a square mile (x2 miles) that could be 15-20 bucks! I'm hoping I can find some spots in there that are open enough to see the bucks in the summer when they're in velvet and away from a lot of the brush. I'm also hoping to do some doe calling to see what there are in the way of does. Trying that in June sometime.

[blackveltbowhunter]

Great topic and congrats on the sheds and scouting so far

   Typically the size of rubs indicate the size of bucks. The old adage big rubs equal big bucks, has IME held pretty true. However like FNF said smaller bucks will rub big rubs leaving scent and big bucks will thrash small trees.Also bigger bucks will often thrash lesser trees when "shed rubbing" as I have found several sheds in location of small conifers that were freshly rubbed.

    IME the poop is indicative of buck vs doe. Again I am not sure if its one hundred percent true but I have witnessed it enough to believe that it can be aneffective inidication. I have heard the same thing in regards to elk. I cant say why it happens, but I believe it

   Overall BT numbers throughout their range are way down. Quality habitat is as well due to lack of logging and changes in logging practices ruining habitat rather than enhancing it. So while some areas may be at the 60 deer per square mile, I do not think that is in any way close to normal. Perhaps in wooded urban interface devoid of predators and little to no hunting pressure. In my talks with biologists I have found that most percieve Buck to Doe ratio much differently than hunters do. At least than this hunter does. A buck to doe ratio of 15 to 100 is going to be nearly guaranteed anywhere you go. Since the primary pressure is on ANTLERED bucks non antlered bucks get a pass. An actual antlered buck to doe or breeding age buck count is much lower in the majority of blacktail habitat.  So if you are in a spot where you are locating that kind of antler on the ground and rut sign, your scouting has certainly paid off!!

   
   

   

 

[Eric M]

Great topic and congrats on the sheds and scouting so far

   Typically the size of rubs indicate the size of bucks. The old adage big rubs equal big bucks, has IME held pretty true. However like FNF said smaller bucks will rub big rubs leaving scent and big bucks will thrash small trees.Also bigger bucks will often thrash lesser trees when "shed rubbing" as I have found several sheds in location of small conifers that were freshly rubbed.

    IME the poop is indicative of buck vs doe. Again I am not sure if its one hundred percent true but I have witnessed it enough to believe that it can be aneffective inidication. I have heard the same thing in regards to elk. I cant say why it happens, but I believe it

   Overall BT numbers throughout their range are way down. Quality habitat is as well due to lack of logging and changes in logging practices ruining habitat rather than enhancing it. So while some areas may be at the 60 deer per square mile, I do not think that is in any way close to normal. Perhaps in wooded urban interface devoid of predators and little to no hunting pressure. In my talks with biologists I have found that most percieve Buck to Doe ratio much differently than hunters do. At least than this hunter does. A buck to doe ratio of 15 to 100 is going to be nearly guaranteed anywhere you go. Since the primary pressure is on ANTLERED bucks non antlered bucks get a pass. An actual antlered buck to doe or breeding age buck count is much lower in the majority of blacktail habitat.  So if you are in a spot where you are locating that kind of antler on the ground and rut sign, your scouting has certainly paid off!!

   
   

   

Thanks for sharing your knowledge also. I appreciate the help. The deer in there seem to be fairly tolerant of human activity. I personally stumbled around in there quite a bit and it never seemed to matter. During the late archery season I saw does almost every day, but only the one small buck, and it was right after a 3 day rainstorm ended. The bucks generally are all super nocturnal. In 2 years, I have only gotten pictures of bucks (2 together) during legal shooting hours one Saturday. That was the weekend I had drill for the military. Every other picture I have of them is at night. Do you think I might have a little better odds during that 4 day late hunt in November? From what I understand the main rut is over but they might still be cruising around for does that got missed. Is that true in your experience?
What do you think deer density is generally per square mile? They sure are interesting animals. I'm hoping to see some bucks in July when they are in the open a little more while their antlers are still sensitive. I saw one last summer but this year I'm going to spend a little more time looking and glassing. My old area I used to find one or 2 sheds a year in was recently clearcut, and although I drove a long way for nothing, I was happy to see some land get opened up. A lot of ground is opening up in the Elbe Hills area now too, although that area is hit pretty hard every year.
   

[fishnfur]

You can believe what you want about determining sex from feces.  I do know that several studies were done to test whether hunters could determine sex of deer based on tracks, which many hunters claim to be able to do.  They all failed miserably.  I have a feeling that they would do no better than 50% success on judging deer poo either.

Eric -  I can't figure out what four days of hunting you're talking about.  I assume it is late buck/modern firearm, and that you are hunting archery during that time with the MF tag.  If that is the case, then the rut will still be churning along, though likely a little past the peak.  I've not seen the dates for the seasons, but I'm guessing that those four days will be the 17th - 20th of November.  There should still be a lot of buck activity going on at that time.  This year, down here, my wife's facebook account had many bucks being taken on the 18 -20th.  WDFW states that nearly half the bucks harvested each season are taken during those four days.  I recommend having a plan to hunt it if you have the chance.  Forty bucks well spent (or whatever that tag costs).

Regarding the shed hunting, I'd be stoked if I scored as many as you have.  If you didn't search that clearcut you drove out to, you probably should have.  Deer don't pick up and leave just because their forest got cut down, they more likely use that area less, and probably most of that use is at night.  With my success rate, I'm less than qualified to talk about shed hunting, but the obvious places to look are bedding areas, feeding areas, and the trails that connect the two.  The deer are much less active in winter, so the hard part is finding where the bucks are bedding, which according to those in the know, is on south/SW facing slopes.  Darned if I can find them!

[Eric M]

You can believe what you want about determining sex from feces.  I do know that several studies were done to test whether hunters could determine sex of deer based on tracks, which many hunters claim to be able to do.  They all failed miserably.  I have a feeling that they would do no better than 50% success on judging deer poo either.

Eric -  I can't figure out what four days of hunting you're talking about.  I assume it is late buck/modern firearm, and that you are hunting archery during that time with the MF tag.  If that is the case, then the rut will still be churning along, though likely a little past the peak.  I've not seen the dates for the seasons, but I'm guessing that those four days will be the 17th - 20th of November.  There should still be a lot of buck activity going on at that time.  This year, down here, my wife's facebook account had many bucks being taken on the 18 -20th.  WDFW states that nearly half the bucks harvested each season are taken during those four days.  I recommend having a plan to hunt it if you have the chance.  Forty bucks well spent (or whatever that tag costs).

Regarding the shed hunting, I'd be stoked if I scored as many as you have.  If you didn't search that clearcut you drove out to, you probably should have.  Deer don't pick up and leave just because their forest got cut down, they more likely use that area less, and probably most of that use is at night.  With my success rate, I'm less than qualified to talk about shed hunting, but the obvious places to look are bedding areas, feeding areas, and the trails that connect the two.  The deer are much less active in winter, so the hard part is finding where the bucks are bedding, which according to those in the know, is on south/SW facing slopes.  Darned if I can find them!

Yes the 4 days is the late hunt modern. I can hunt with a firearm in the area I'm at now. I'm still not sure. I might just post up somewhere each day and see what I can learn about their rutting time. I'd feel better about buying a license if I had more time, or another species, to hunt.
Regarding the clearcut areas, I walked it but for as much snow as there was at the time, there weren't near the tracks I've come to expect. Also, from what I understand now the logging companies spray a lot of these areas to keep other stuff from growing too fast. Seems to take longer for the deer to have something to eat. Not sure if they do that everywhere? I'll let you know what happens.

[fishnfur]

Yes, the herbicide treatments on commercial and state forest lands are almost universal, though Hancock doesn't seem to use them in the Willipa Hills, at least where I hunt.  It doesn't take long for the smaller forbs and grasses to re-establish after spraying. 


I hit the books to look at the numbers for deer per square mile.   Not surprisingly, my numbers were off, but the findings vary from region to region, and are greatly affected by recent events such as severely cold, or wet/windy winters, when many deer are lost due to starvation, recent fires or logging, etc.  WA State study published in the '60s from data collected the Clemmons tree farm near Pe Ell during the '40s and '50s.  They found numbers ranging from something like 18 up to 30 or so deer per mile based on 56 mi sq. area.  The total deer numbers were almost cut in half during the study after a really bad freeze that killed thousands of deer there.  (Attached data below - just for fun).  The numbers for deer at higher elevations are likely different.
A CA study in Mendicino showed up to 75 deer/mile.  I couldn't find the info from the Tillimook Burn study done by OSU, but I think that is where my number guess in the 60s/mi may have come from.


Good luck!

[JDHasty]

Yes, the herbicide treatments on commercial and state forest lands are almost universal, though Hancock doesn't seem to use them in the Willipa Hills, at least where I hunt.  It doesn't take long for the smaller forbs and grasses to re-establish after spraying. 


I hit the books to look at the numbers for deer per square mile.   Not surprisingly, my numbers were off, but the findings vary from region to region, and are greatly affected by recent events such as severely cold, or wet/windy winters, when many deer are lost due to starvation, recent fires or logging, etc.  WA State study published in the '60s from data collected the Clemmons tree farm near Pe Ell during the '40s and '50s.  They found numbers ranging from something like 18 up to 30 or so deer per mile based on 56 mi sq. area.  The total deer numbers were almost cut in half during the study after a really bad freeze that killed thousands of deer there.  (Attached data below - just for fun).  The numbers for deer at higher elevations are likely different.
A CA study in Mendicino showed up to 75 deer/mile.  I couldn't find the info from the Tillimook Burn study done by OSU, but I think that is where my number guess in the 60s/mi may have come from.


Good luck!

I talked to a biologist who IIRC said > 80/sq mi around S Kitsap & Puget Sound Islands.  ~ 30% bucks and 30% of the bucks mature three-point or better.  That means about seven mature bucks/sq mi.  That sounds about right to me.  Something like one mature buck, more or less, per hundred acres.  One deer/every eight acres, yea - that is entirely reasonable if you include fawns. 

[blackveltbowhunter]

Im not going to argue about tracks or poo .... I agree with you and will never claim to be able to judge tracks or feces with 100 percent accuracy. But I am confident enough in my ability to take in the whole picture that if I cut an above average track in length with spreading toes while walking and a long stride with rear feet falling short of or inside the front I am going to follow them!! until I lose them or confirm what it is!! If this coincides with the rut, and I am finding rubs as well I will be excited. Poo is the same way, not claiming I can find a dookie and tell you if its a buck or doe, simply that certain characteristics will raise my index of suspisicion. Combined with other clues it could be enough to keep me in an area.

Eric.... If you have the opportunity and have done the homework, the Four days of late modern season can be more than enough time. Plan to spend all day each day, and hope for some weather. Fishnfur is going to hate me for disagreaing again ... But I have had little luck searching South facing slopes for sheds  for blacktails. Unless high enough that snow is a significant factor. So disregard if looking in the higher cascade foothills or Bench bucks. Obviously you are doing well on your own. I really have figured no rhyme or reason as to where they are going to be found, but focus on bedding areas primarily regardless of where they are, bedding areas in big timber with lots of blackberry and fern mixed in have produced consistently for me, followed by overgrown clearcuts with beds in them. Not sure if it matters, but it seems like I find better sheds in the the timber.

If the clear cut is recently cut and not sprayed yet, it may get an increase in use as alot of the tops of the trees are highly nutritious and deer will take advantage of the downed trees. Once sprayed,my observation is a decrease in use of primary food sources and overall decrease in use of the cut. But they dont typically go far, usually just move into thicker reprod or timber where food is.

[Special T]

I think you need to spend some time mapping out the trails in your area. Boyd is a great reference to help you find the bedding areas where those bucks are holed up. If I wanted to shoot one with a bow I would get very familuar with the area & stalking. He has a great section on that.

[Eric M]

I think you need to spend some time mapping out the trails in your area. Boyd is a great reference to help you find the bedding areas where those bucks are holed up. If I wanted to shoot one with a bow I would get very familuar with the area & stalking. He has a great section on that.

That really is a great idea. I still get dead ended on a lot of escape trails.  I just started the Iverson book-bought it on Amazon for 50 cents plus shipping. Haven't gotten to that part. Appreciate the advice.

[Special T]

I think you have accomplished the hard part. Finding  a decent group of deer that are in a specific area without a bunch of hunters in it during rifle season. I would likely use a rifle with the dates you use and the limited time in feild. I archery hunt so that I can get out more weekends. Get out hunt mushrooms and look for bunches of vine maple and blown over trees and rootballs. Anything that provides cover to break up your/thier outline.  Find good vantage points or areas with less dense trees or brush under the canopy. I have often seen them in the alder stands within the firs. One are I hunt has really dense jack firs they hide and bed in but move into a select cut area that boundry has lots of trails sign and sighting near the beginning/end of light. One of my stands is in a small opening where visible light is available closer to  start stop of shooting hours. I too have a couple of pics of nice bucks right at dusk but have never seen them. Imo the best time for camera is just after the season closes.

[Eric M]

Eric.... If you have the opportunity and have done the homework, the Four days of late modern season can be more than enough time. Plan to spend all day each day, and hope for some weather.

You are the 3rd person to tell me this. I'm beginning to believe it. side note- I love finding a place besides work where we can debate feces. I have spent 6 years looking for sheds and hunting blacktail deer. Although I always hear about the south facing slopes, I don't think blacktail care haha. The 2 things I've noticed more this year about finding sheds is they aren't on the main trails , and I have found several very close to rubbed trees. In Scott Haugen's book, he talks about bucks using the less used alternate trails and using different trails all the time and that got me off the main trails.

[Eric M]

I think you have accomplished the hard part. Finding  a decent group of deer that are in a specific area without a bunch of hunters in it during rifle season. I would likely use a rifle with the dates you use and the limited time in feild. I archery hunt so that I can get out more weekends. Get out hunt mushrooms and look for bunches of vine maple and blown over trees and rootballs. Anything that provides cover to break up your/thier outline.  Find good vantage points or areas with less dense trees or brush under the canopy. I have often seen them in the alder stands within the firs. One are I hunt has really dense jack firs they hide and bed in but move into a select cut area that boundry has lots of trails sign and sighting near the beginning/end of light. One of my stands is in a small opening where visible light is available closer to  start stop of shooting hours. I too have a couple of pics of nice bucks right at dusk but have never seen them. Imo the best time for camera is just after the season closes.

Some good information right there thanks. That gets me thinking about a few places. I really love going up against a species like this. I'm not after the antlers per se, just want to get a deer that has outsmarted the predators and other hunters for 6 or 8 years, you know?