Mountain goat permits

[300bullelk]

I don't get it. Looking at the new proposals they have killed most of the permit areas for goats. Being sneaky as the Dept. is they increased permits on goats in a couple areas so the total is nearly the same. I was lucky enough to draw a Peaches Ridge archery permit last year (08) and was amazed at the amount of mountain goats that I observed in GMU 346 (Naches). I spent every weekend and a few days during the workweek up scouting elk in the area. There was a pile of elk up there and I enjoyed listening to them at night from my tent in Mid August until the opener in Sept. I also was video taping all the goats in the area and at one point, have 70+ goats on the screen and numeruos others in smaller groups visable from the same vantage point. Now according to the survey that the Dept. does from there spring flyovers in helicopters they say there is less than 100 goats in the area I was standing in. Hmmmm. So that being said I was looking at more goats in that little basin than were supposed to be in the entire Goat permit area that includes the 346 unit and over to Corral pass. And an outfitter friend of mine that works the area was in a different spot that was miles away from where I was and he was observing over 90 goats where he was at. Now keep in mind that there are only two permits given in the whole area. This year there are 0.
Now they do there survey from helicopters in the spring. According to the Biologists, the goats are not in the summer ranges because of the deep snow and the goats are at lower elevations in the deep trees where snow is less and forage is available. Here is where the counts are done. Hell, I am surprized they even see one!!!!. A white goat on white snow in the big lumber??
Why don't they do what other states do and listen to the guys who put the boot leather to the trails and actually see a accurate representation of the amount of animals in any given area. One particular agent for the Dept. said to my outfitter buddy that he did not believe that he saw that many goats in the area!!! Basically calling him a liar. He invited the agent to observe with him or even look at his photographic evidence. Its just crazy that we keep losing our rights by false information given.
I have a way the Dept. can save hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of dollars every year. Layoff all your Biologists since you dont listen to them anyway.
I was lucky and drew a goat permit in the Hamma Hamma when it was archery only and goats were not a OIL animal at that time. I took a great Billy with 6 1/8 bases and easily made it to Boone and Crockett if he would'nt have fallin' and broke off one of his horns. I was lookin forward to pursuing these amazing creatures again as it is now in my blood. Even with a bazzillion points, I may never draw again because the powers that be say there are no goats around any more. Ever flown over the Cedar River watershed!! There are more goats in there than most permit areas combined. I think I will save all the money I use for permits in this state and appy in others.
Hope I get a moose permit this next couple of years before there numbers start fallin' from wolf predation. Yes, its already happening!!!!!

[wackmaster]

I agree

[popeshawnpaul]

I'm with you 300bullelk.  The population estimates are bad.  Then they rely on an old study by a well known biologist that says hunting a goat population is limiting to the population.  Yet, we have states that do it every year and have hard evidence that heavy pressure on a goat herd does not in and of itself reduce the population.  Also, the state has admitted they don't have good or any population estimates for goats.  Therefore, they stay on the cautious side and don't offer permits.  If anyone has ever hiked our alpine areas and gone out like you have 300bullelk, you would realize there are a lot of goats if you put boot leather on the trail.  Back when they cut down the permits 15+ years ago it wasn't because good sound population estimates said we had less goats.  The reliance on science that said if you hunt a population hard it will not sustain itself is the only rationale they had.  I really wish someone could come on here and show me evidence to the contrary.  I'm up for a good debate about it. 

Have you ever hiked the enchantment lakes and tried to pee?  The goats come running up to you to lick it and the salt.  North of highway 2 there are a number of spots with a lot of goats.  I've seen a lot on Nason ridge.  Between 2 and I90 there are goats but they are more scattered.  Many of the goats I see are in timber.  You can't see them from the air in timber.  Ever hiked around Glacier peak?  Goats are there.  The one thing I notice is that many of the goats I see are in timber.  It's hard to estimate the population when they are in timber.  They said they put together a committee to look at the goat situation and make recommendations.  I would like to see who is on that committee and what evidence they are relying on.  When I go hiking in the cascades I see more mountain goats than deer.  Yet we open it up for deer hunting.  We used to give out quite a few tags and many of these areas I'm naming had hunting tags.  It's hard to hike into these areas and get a goat.  Many areas are tough tough units that will kill a man.  Yet people like Dwight Schuh did it like in a unit he hunted out of Monte Cristo in the 80's and he spent 14 days in there and never got a goat.  These units are tough on a guy.  Yet we had the opportunity.  Now we don't have the opportunity.  I could go on and on.  I would like someone with actual knowledge of the situation to speak on this.  I guess they have though with their "recommendations" per the committee.  Why don't we ask some trailblazers and people that go into these areas all summer long how many goats they see?  I could go on and on. 

[heavy hauler]

i killed a goat back in 06. the state had me fill out a report after i killed my goat.it was pretty extensive.so they have some data from hunters, but who knows if they use it

[300bullelk]

Ya, I saw more goats than deer but your right, it is an open unit for deer, go figure. By the end of elk season there was a hole about 6" deep in the dirt from the goats eating the dirt where I pee'd. Yes, the enchantments has a pile of goats as well and it is a pee at your own risk area!!!!!!!!!!!!

[norsepeak]

I have been round and round with the local biologist about the goats up in Chinook pass.  There are way more goats up there then they think, but won't listen to anybody.  I spend around 180 days a year running around up in that country and see a LOT of goats, but when I talked to the bio he flatly refused to believe me on how many goats are up there even though the only time he goes into that area is the one time a year that he flys it.....   I 've even told him that I would take him up there and show him the goats, but he won't do it.  They drive me crazy...he even told me on the phone that he thought that I might be mis-identifying them....until I told him that I also have a degree in wildlife biology...then he didn't want to talk to me anymore...go figure!

[bobcat]

That's funny. How do you misidentify a mountain goat?       

[Ray]

Maybe it's politics coupled with job preservation. If the animals need counting and attention then someone gets to keep their job.

[WDFW-SUX]

Snow patch = Mountain Goat   

[steeliekingfisher]

There are more hunters in the woods than there are employees of WDFW.  We need to be the look outs.  Start taking pictures, start collecting dates and times and locations for each picture.  Start sending the data in.  If we don't like what the state is doing, why not unite and start with doing the leg work to prove goat numbers ourselves.  Complaining isn't going to do it.  If you are upset with how something is working, try and fix it.  Now if people did this and the state didn't do something then there is a problem.  Thing is we live in a state that can't come up with money to fix the roads, do you think they spend a lot on counting goats.  No, they hire a pilot for a one day or two day study of a specific area.  If someone is in the woods 1/2 the year, hes seeing and doing more than the state can due to they have to pay someone to do it, the funds just aint there, sad, but true statement.  If we think the state is wrong, which they are, we need to prove it.

I crossed wolf tracks several times 3 years ago while running a Bobcat trapline in Northeastern WA.  Never took a picture but did inform the warden and biologist when they tagged all my kitties I caught.  They denied it without substantial proof.  # years later a picture comes up and its all over the web and WDFW offices about wolf confirmation.   

Mount Si has 13 different goats that I know of.  Seen every one of them together while Elk Hunting this year.  WDFW says there are 5 on that hill.  Mill Creek office has the picture already, sent it to my warden buddy and asked why we don't have a permit for there either.

And yes, the back side of Nason ridge(north) is loaded with goats.  SEe them every year while packing out my mulies.  They dont even run off when you shoot at a deer up there.  No pressure at all, from us atleast.  I did find a goat killed by a cougar on Nason 2 years ago, I think the cougar is the only one enjoying the goat herds of WA.  Its not us, thats for sure.

I am going to Alaska for good in the spring.  Tired of no draw here and tired of not being able to hunt.  I have 15 preference points for deer, 12 for elk, 12 for moose, goat and Ram.  Never been drawn.  Funny thing is, I am moving to Alaska and I will still put in for deer and elk and ram here.  Now that I soon will be nonresident here, I will get drawn for all three next year.

Sometimes a picture is worth a 1000 words and without it its just words.

[WDFW Hates ME!!!]

One of the guys i work with talked with a bio, the bio tol dhim that they only do aerial surveys, you would think that the goats are afraid of helocopters...

[Ray]

There are more hunters in the woods than there are employees of WDFW.  We need to be the look outs.

Apparently only trained biologists can correctly identify and count goats.

[SuperDave]

So if the biologists only gets out one time a year, what the hell does he do the rest of his time?  Some of this states bioligists are missing the boat and do not want to hear from people who actually have more data than themselves, which is probably why he doesn't want to go out with you.  Its too bad!  Some day, Sure would like to draw one of those tags one day!

[Curly]

I did find a goat killed by a cougar on Nason 2 years ago, I think the cougar is the only one enjoying the goat herds of WA.  Its not us, thats for sure.

I supspect that WDFW has some anti-hunter biologists and they want the goats be saved for cougar food.  They apparenlty want the cougars saved as well with the way the quotas are for cougars.

[WDFW-SUX]

suspect that WDFW has some anti-hunter biologists

And commission members.

[Elkstuffer]

I wonder if any of this has to do with the fact that the WDFW ariel survey program has been grounded indefinitely by our wonderful governor?

[shanevg]

The whole thing is frustrating.  I wish they could make some of their research public.  For example, the Mt. Baker region went from no goat tags 2 years ago, to 2 tags, and now if the proposals go through, Mt. Baker will have 7 goat tags next year.  So that would indicate that in the past three years, goat populations have gone up from not enough goats for a single tag, to enough goats for 7 tags.  Well where is the research that indicates this dramatic change in population?  Make it available for us to see!  If we had the research available to us, this whole situation would be so much more frustrating.

As far as the new proposals are going, I'm just giving biologists the benefit of a doubt (as hard as that is) that what they are planning is necessary for goat survival.  But the tag dispersal ideas are retarded!  They are creating 3 block areas and then once you get drawn, they assign a sub-area to you depending on the most recent population research.  First of all, having 3 blocks is going to destroy drawing odds.  Everyone will choose all three areas, and all three areas will have terrible draw odds.  Then once you get drawn, you may not even be able to hunt where you want to.  Again, think of the Mt. Baker region.  Some people would only want to hunt specific sub areas because they know where the goat are and how to hunt them.  Other sub areas may not be as desirable to an individual.  Why does WDFW have to assign a sub area?  Just split it up into the sub areas like they always have done and let people choose where they want to hunt like all other species in the state. 

[boneaddict]

I wonder if any of this has to do with the fact that the WDFW ariel survey program has been grounded indefinitely by our wonderful governor?

Then draw upon the resources available to them.  I'm sure there are local resources such as Norse in this area, and myeself in the Methow that could help them. 

[shanevg]

I wonder if any of this has to do with the fact that the WDFW ariel survey program has been grounded indefinitely by our wonderful governor?

Then draw upon the resources available to them.  I'm sure there are local resources such as Norse in this area, and myeself in the Methow that could help them. 

And I know of plenty people that could help up by Mt. Baker (myself and Timber just to name a couple)

[WAcoyotehunter]

There are more hunters in the woods than there are employees of WDFW.  We need to be the look outs.

Apparently only trained biologists can correctly identify and count goats.

I can only imagine the number of annoying calls they recieve from people that have misidentified an animal.   I don't blame them for not using hunter info for official survey, but they should be looking more closely at the populations and using the best science available.  I think often times the bios get 'attached' (for lack of a better word) to "their" wildlife.  I also believe there are some anti hunters in the ranks. 

Their job, first and foremost, is to protect the populations.  They will always err on the side of conservation. 

It's frustrating as a hunter.

[ramslam]

Looking at revised recommendations it seems Naches, Bumping and Blazed are now back on for 2009.  If you agree with the addition be sure to send a comment in support.

[sagerat]

Good, I hope they can get this right.

[norsepeak]

I've got a second meeting this week with the local biologist who does the surveys and his boss and the bio from Oak Creek to try to figure out a plan for the goats on the Chinook/White pass drainages.  They even said today on the phone that they would be willing to go out with me this summer to locate some goats....I almost fell over!  On a side not, I was way up high today and saw two huge billies!  One was a giant and might be new state record material!

[Ridgerunner]

Thats good, if you want to know where they hang out in the bumping unit let me know.  I saw my comments posted on the website, glad to see that it made a difference and we got some additional areas back that should be open for hunting.

[yelp]

This came out today...a few more goat permits..

[Cougeyes]

Glad to see the new recommendations to re-instate blazed ridged and the other units, not to happy with only 1 goat tag but guess we take what we can get.  I agree with norsepeak on the amount of goats up there in those units.  Did you happen to get the actual mountain goat counts from their survey last year?  I'd be curious what their numbers were.  I was up there two summers ago and just off windy pass/north ridge and then looking into blazed ridge and greek creek we counted 50+ goats in one day in only a half hour of being there. 

[bankwalker]

i see goats every single day up by lake cle elum and cooper lake this year while deer hunting.

[norsepeak]

Coug, I did get the actual counts from this last fall ("08) and the actual flight path as recorded by GPS when I met with the bio who did the arial survey.  They only cover about 50-60% of the drainage so the data they have is completely inaccurate to start with.  On top of that, they only fly once a year, due to "budget constraints" blah blah blah.  Anyway, I have a preliminary meeting on Tues. then a formal meeting later where I plan on doing a little presentation for them.  I'll keep ya posted.