Training question

[asmith]

I get to finally pick up my 6 month old GSP from the trainer on Wednesday.  She has been with Dan at Dunfur kennels for her first stint of training, one month.  Before this, I did the basic training which included sit.  Last week, when I went in to do some work with the trainer and my dog, I was told you should never teach a pointer to sit and they were working on getting her away from that.  So, is that true?  Ive never heard of that before.

[brush hunter]

I don't know one way or the other I don't have bird dogs. I do know a couple of guys that do and they taught their dogs to sit. didn't affect their performance in the field.

[huntingfool7]

I'd be looking for another trainer. 

[jetjockey]

It is absolutely true.  The reason you don't teach a pointing dog to sit, at least at a young age, is it can translate to the dog sitting on point.  I don't know any pointing  dog trainers who teach their pointing dogs to sit.

[hunter105]

I have a Wired Hair Pointing Griffon and taught him to sit as a pup.  I have never had him sit when on point.  I have had him sit on the trail about 2/3 of the way through a Chukar hunt.

[aaronoto]

Has anyone actually seen a dog sit on point though?  Going against what the internet and books said I trained my WPG to sit when she was very young.  Now that we are transitioning to bird work and whoa training I haven't seen the slightest inclination of her wanting to sit during either.

[jetjockey]

Yep.  Several times.  In trials, it always leads to the same result.  The dog is picked up.  There is no reason to teach a pointing dog to sit.  Sitting is something retrievers do.  You teach pointing dogs to "whoa".

[wildweeds]

Jet is Givin yall the real scoop. Dogs taught to sit are more apt to resort to sitting when asked to do something out of their comfort zone. Sit is taught as a puppy,puppies get into everthing,teaching them to sit is a way of keeping them out of undesirable things.generally people lose their cool and get rough when an accident happens so the dog gets thumped on a bit with physical or verbal methods. So further on down the line when the real pressure from training comes along the dog executes the move that means safety. And that is to sit. I've seen dogs sit,lay down,blink,flag and bolt all of those maneuvers are from a rough training style around game. Skip the sit command if your going to take the dog to show for ribbions.

[huntnfmly]

Jet is Givin yall the real scoop. Dogs taught to sit are more apt to resort to sitting when asked to do something out of their comfort zone. Sit is taught as a puppy,puppies get into everthing,teaching them to sit is a way of keeping them out of undesirable things.generally people lose their cool and get rough when an accident happens so the dog gets thumped on a bit with physical or verbal methods. So further on down the line when the real pressure from training comes along the dog executes the move that means safety. And that is to sit. I've seen dogs sit,lay down,blink,flag and bolt all of those maneuvers are from a rough training style around game. Skip the sit command if your going to take the dog to show for ribbions.

[asmith]

Thanks for the input guys.  This is not going to be a show or trial dog, just an all around family and bird dog.  I have just never heard of not allowing a pointer to sit before, and I grew up with shorthairs, all of which where taught to sit as puppies and never once did it happen in the field without command.  I think if you can teach a dog whoa and sit, then the difference will translate in the field as well.  But again, im no professional dog trainer.

[jetjockey]

I'm guessing you never had dogs that were completly trained either.  Breaking a dog puts pressure on them like Wild says.  That pressure can lead to some interesting behavior.   Why risk it? 

[addicted2hunting]

It can lead to sitting on point, but if you do any water cowling with the dog it will need to learn to sit and lay in ground blinds, if you want the full versatility out of your versatile breed.

[asmith]

I'm guessing you never had dogs that were completly trained either.  Breaking a dog puts pressure on them like Wild says.  That pressure can lead to some interesting behavior.   Why risk it?

No, all our dogs where always family dogs first, bird dogs second.  This will be my first dog that gets professional training.

It can lead to sitting on point, but if you do any water cowling with the dog it will need to learn to sit and lay in ground blinds, if you want the full versatility out of your versatile breed.

Yes, she will be used for waterfowling as well.

[jetjockey]

My dogs are family dogs first, hunting dogs second, and trial dogs third, even though they trial more than they are hunted.  In the pointing dog world, not teaching a dog to sit is normal.  There really is no reason to teach sit, unless the dog is going to spend a lot of time in a blind, and then, wait till the dog is older and make sure there is no nagative transfer of training.  What I mean by that is never tell the dog to sit in the field, and only use the command when in a blind.    Make sure the dog is broke before you train sit.  I think you will quickly find its a useless command for a pointing dog once they have learned whoa.

[Happy Gilmore]

The lady who owns the top obedience GSP in the country and also recently became an FC sits until told otherwise. It's just a result of the training style developed for years and people don't change their routine when it works. If you want a dog to sit and point you can have a dog sit and point. Retriever people do it daily if you believe retrievers point 

[NW-GSP]

I have two pointing dogs, neither are labels  And they are both trained to sit but have never sat on point.

[jetjockey]

Again guys, there's a reason pointing dog trainers don't teach sit.  I'm sure everyone will come on here and state that they have done it with no repercussions, but I'm going to guess very few, if any, of the dogs that guys are talking about are broke either.  Dan Hoeke is a well known trainer and has a very good reputation that follows him.  He's one of the two with the best reputation for pointing dogs in the state, plus he's a GSP guy.  So he knows the breed very, very well.   If he tells you something, you should listen.

[addicted2hunting]

sit is a way that dogs will naturally avoid pressure so yes jet is correct. it is a state of submission for a dog. pointer trainers are also very scared to go down that route due to running trials and such. a dog usually never sits while actually on point but will sit as you go to flush which the dog is usually not pointing at this stage as its there standing out of obedience. but sit or whoa should never be used as a discipline in a pointing dog as it will revert back to that as what to do when in trouble. tons of versatile dogs are broke to wing and shot and versatile champs that are trained to sit without any problems but it does need to be in the back of your mind.

[tlbradford]

I am not an expert, but I will give my personal experience with the dogs I have had.  My first few dogs were amazingly obedient and good hunters.  They all worked close and methodically.  I basically used the book "Gun Dog" as the basis for my training, and started training them as early as 10-12 weeks. 

I used the Delmar Smith method with my current pup which essentially limits the dog's training during it's first year, but maximizes the fun and experiences the dog has in the field as a pup.  He is very careful to make sure the dog's don't have a negative experience tied to a command even if it is by accident.  He uses an example of a "whoa" command given while running his dogs, that has a unfortunate timing of a branch slapping the dog in the face.

This past season was my first full year of this dog in the field and it was amazing.  I have a weimer that will go through heavy cover, go in water, not stop due to cuts from barbwire, etc.  She goes balls to the wall until she physically can't go anymore.  She is not out of control in the slightest, she is just having fun and is not hindered by worrying about doing something wrong, or being scared of any situation.  I believe it is a result of this training method that keeps her forward drive at 100%.  It could just be her personality.  Like I said, I don't have a big enough body of work to say one way or another.  I know there are newer methods being taught.  I know Delmar Smith has some protege's that have refined his type of training to introduce e-collars, but still utilize the "point-of-touch" techniques.  I am a big believer until I have another dog that may prove some of the pitfalls of this method that I am not experiencing on this pup.

[jetjockey]

One thing guys need to realize is that training a bird dog is a process, especially in the pointing dog world where we try and develop independence in a dog.   That process builds a dog up, only to tare it down, in order to build it back up again.  Anyone can train a dog in 3-4 months on released birds in launchers, but that doesn't produce a real bird dog.  To really develop a bird dog you need to let them be young, let them find birds and get cocky, and maybe even a little arrogant.  Let them think they are hot s#!t.  Then when their ready, you break them and put pressure on them, which breaks them down.  You take a cocky dog and essentially humble it.  When it's done with the process, you begin to let them go again.  What you will get is a bird dog that knows your the boss, but is independent and hunts with confidence and style.  When you see that dog hit the fields, you know.  Those are the dogs that light it up and produce maximum amount of game to your bag.  The problem is the casual observer will never notice the difference.  I never saw the difference until I started trialing and got to watch a ton of dogs run.  I hunted for 25 years over a lot of dogs before that, and never saw it.   That's why most trainers allow a pup to be a pup when they are young.  They let them run, point, and chase birds left and right.  They put very, very little pressure on the dogs because they want them to gain confidence and get a little cocky.  Then when they break the dog,the dog will quickly learn exactly what is expected and they are less likely to have any problems.  Problems like the dog sitting on point or on the flush.   Once you understand why the good trainers do what they do, it begins to make sense.  You can teach a dog to sit, and if you do it perfectly, you won't have a dog who sits when it's on point.  But if the dog hasn't gained enough confidence and cockiness when it's time to break it, will the dog revert to sitting when the real pressure is put on them?  Very possibly.  That's why most pros won't risk it.

[addicted2hunting]

One thing guys need to realize is that training a bird dog is a process, especially in the pointing dog world where we try and develop independence in a dog.   That process builds a dog up, only to tare it down, in order to build it back up again.  Anyone can train a dog in 3-4 months on released birds in launchers, but that doesn't produce a real bird dog.  To really develop a bird dog you need to let them be young, let them find birds and get cocky, and maybe even a little arrogant.  Let them think they are hot s#!t.  Then when their ready, you break them and put pressure on them, which breaks them down.  You take a cocky dog and essentially humble it.  When it's done with the process, you begin to let them go again.  What you will get is a bird dog that knows your the boss, but is independent and hunts with confidence and style.  When you see that dog hit the fields, you know.  Those are the dogs that light it up and produce maximum amount of game to your bag.  The problem is the casual observer will never notice the difference.  I never saw the difference until I started trialing and got to watch a ton of dogs run.  I hunted for 25 years over a lot of dogs before that, and never saw it.   That's why most trainers allow a pup to be a pup when they are young.  They let them run, point, and chase birds left and right.  They put very, very little pressure on the dogs because they want them to gain confidence and get a little cocky.  Then when they break the dog,the dog will quickly learn exactly what is expected and they are less likely to have any problems.  Problems like the dog sitting on point or on the flush.   Once you understand why the good trainers do what they do, it begins to make sense.  You can teach a dog to sit, and if you do it perfectly, you won't have a dog who sits when it's on point.  But if the dog hasn't gained enough confidence and cockiness when it's time to break it, will the dog revert to sitting when the real pressure is put on them?  Very possibly.  That's why most pros won't risk it.

Bingo!

[wildweeds]

Concur with Jet for the most part. You want them to be sassy but yet cooperative. If you let a derby dog be a renegade blackheart are a renegade blackheart for life no matter how much they are trained. I've owned 2 of those rotten suns a bucks. Sit can be taught but it is taught at the very end after the dog is broke.

[JayBird02]

So I have trained both of my dogs myself and my first dog I trained to sit. When I started putting pressure on him with woah training he started sitting on his birds. I was able to correct this problem but it did set me back on training. So if it was up to me I would never teach a pointing dog sit. And if I was going to train sit it would probably be one of the last things I trained.