North Cascade Grizzly Bear Meeting in Darrington 5/14

[timberfaller]

"and put an end to hunting"

That is being done though "D's" and the greenie's (bio-diversity groups) going after the use of lead!

But grizzly's will work too!!

And so does "social media"  especially when it become propaganda fodder for network news!!

[4fletch]

How are the wolves managed in WA. The Grizz will be managed the same.

[Tbar]

How are the wolves managed in WA. The Grizz will be managed the same.

 
And the puppet strings will be controlled by the exact same NGOs that influence and fund the wolf agenda.

[Jonathan_S]

How are the wolves managed in WA. The Grizz will be managed the same.

Grizzlies have been here, there is nothing new and Grizzlies aren't about to explode in numbers.  I am not worried about the numbers of them but how the land use is altered - like what KFHunter said.

They scare me but it isn't keeping me out of the wilderness.  It will just make me increase my sidearm

[luvmystang67]

Grizzlies have been floating in and out of the Cascades for years. Obviously, the food source isn't there to keep them there. What makes the bios think relocated grizzlies would stick around  Like pianoman says, it's just another tool to keep people out of the wilderness. They've been working on this project for a long time. I remember seeing pamphlets at Clarks in Marblemount that tells about the designation of the north cascades for wolf and grizzly habitat back in 2004. I think the project started in the 90's sometime. The Suattle river road washed out in a big storm back in 2003. I think the forest service left it in disrepair for longer than needed to keep people out for their little pet recovery projects. If it weren't for the Sauk-Suattle tribes it would still be closed today.

I completely agree with this... what do people think they're going to eat?  While I'm not a grizz expert, I dont think they can sustain themselves on berries alone like a black bear.  What are they going to do?  Eat the 5 high country blacktails?  Stay east and prey on the few high country mule deer?  I think its much more likely that they dive into the low country and prey on livestock.  I really don't see there being a viable natural food source in the north cascades for them.  It isn't like they've been hunted recently or that the area has been overdeveloped or anything of the sort... There simply is not enough food for them to hang around for.   

Also to echo everyone else... I will be dead before they allow hunting for grizzly bears in WA... and by that time I speculate most of hunting will be a thing of the past anyway (unfortunately).  This will certainly not be a tool that ever helps hunters in any way.

[huntnphool]

Grizzlies have been floating in and out of the Cascades for years. Obviously, the food source isn't there to keep them there. What makes the bios think relocated grizzlies would stick around  Like pianoman says, it's just another tool to keep people out of the wilderness. They've been working on this project for a long time. I remember seeing pamphlets at Clarks in Marblemount that tells about the designation of the north cascades for wolf and grizzly habitat back in 2004. I think the project started in the 90's sometime. The Suattle river road washed out in a big storm back in 2003. I think the forest service left it in disrepair for longer than needed to keep people out for their little pet recovery projects. If it weren't for the Sauk-Suattle tribes it would still be closed today.

I completely agree with this... what do people think they're going to eat?  While I'm not a grizz expert, I dont think they can sustain themselves on berries alone like a black bear.  What are they going to do?  Eat the 5 high country blacktails?  Stay east and prey on the few high country mule deer?  I think its much more likely that they dive into the low country and prey on livestock.  I really don't see there being a viable natural food source in the north cascades for them.  It isn't like they've been hunted recently or that the area has been overdeveloped or anything of the sort... There simply is not enough food for them to hang around for.   

Also to echo everyone else... I will be dead before they allow hunting for grizzly bears in WA... and by that time I speculate most of hunting will be a thing of the past anyway (unfortunately).  This will certainly not be a tool that ever helps hunters in any way.

 How many deer and elk are killed each year by hunters?

 Eliminate the hunters and there is plenty of food for the bears and wolves.

[JimmyHoffa]

Grizzlies have been floating in and out of the Cascades for years. Obviously, the food source isn't there to keep them there. What makes the bios think relocated grizzlies would stick around  Like pianoman says, it's just another tool to keep people out of the wilderness. They've been working on this project for a long time. I remember seeing pamphlets at Clarks in Marblemount that tells about the designation of the north cascades for wolf and grizzly habitat back in 2004. I think the project started in the 90's sometime. The Suattle river road washed out in a big storm back in 2003. I think the forest service left it in disrepair for longer than needed to keep people out for their little pet recovery projects. If it weren't for the Sauk-Suattle tribes it would still be closed today.

I completely agree with this... what do people think they're going to eat?  While I'm not a grizz expert, I dont think they can sustain themselves on berries alone like a black bear.  What are they going to do?  Eat the 5 high country blacktails?  Stay east and prey on the few high country mule deer?  I think its much more likely that they dive into the low country and prey on livestock.  I really don't see there being a viable natural food source in the north cascades for them.  It isn't like they've been hunted recently or that the area has been overdeveloped or anything of the sort... There simply is not enough food for them to hang around for.   

Also to echo everyone else... I will be dead before they allow hunting for grizzly bears in WA... and by that time I speculate most of hunting will be a thing of the past anyway (unfortunately).  This will certainly not be a tool that ever helps hunters in any way.

 How many deer and elk are killed each year by hunters?

 Eliminate the hunters and there is plenty of food for the bears and wolves.

until there isn't....from eating all the fawns, does, cows or just killing them for fun like the wolves did to that herd in WY.

[JLS]

I completely agree with this... what do people think they're going to eat?  While I'm not a grizz expert, I dont think they can sustain themselves on berries alone like a black bear. 

You might find this of interest.  I doubt there is much likelihood of a grizzly starving to death in the North Cascades.  There are valid reasons for being concerned and/or opposed to grizzly reintroductions into the North Cascades.  Lack of food source is certainly not one of them.

And no, it's unlikely that they will be hunted in my lifetime or yours.  It's been 20 years since the last grizzly was legally harvested in the Northern Continental Divide Ecosystem.  Bear populations are very healthy, yet they are not being hunted there and likely won't for several more years.

[npaull]

I think the conspiracy theory that the point of bringing grizzlies in is to "keep people out of the wilderness" is crazy paranoid. I think it is simpler and more realistic to chalk this up to a "feel good" agenda from people who haven't really thought it through. Remember - never attribute to conspiracy that which can be explained by incompetence.

However, I still agree that the idea of bringing grizzlies in is stupid. Why would we do that? They aren't endangered, and they have corridors through which they can disperse naturally if the habitat is good (via the North Cascades from Canada, or down the Selkirks etc).

Undoubtedly MOST of the grizzlies that used to be around here lived in the lowlands and relied heavily on the annual salmon runs. Those are basically gone, and all the drainages are heavily settled, so the  only option left is for strictly alpine bears, which will always have been few and far between given the relative scarcity of reliable food.

So let the grizzlies come down from up north if they can hack it. If they become a problem, kill the problem bears. But transplant bears here? That's a crazy stupid waste of time and money.

[luvmystang67]

I completely agree with this... what do people think they're going to eat?  While I'm not a grizz expert, I dont think they can sustain themselves on berries alone like a black bear. 

You might find this of interest.  I doubt there is much likelihood of a grizzly starving to death in the North Cascades.  There are valid reasons for being concerned and/or opposed to grizzly reintroductions into the North Cascades.  Lack of food source is certainly not one of them.

And no, it's unlikely that they will be hunted in my lifetime or yours.  It's been 20 years since the last grizzly was legally harvested in the Northern Continental Divide Ecosystem.  Bear populations are very healthy, yet they are not being hunted there and likely won't for several more years.

If the habitat and food are great... why aren't they there in greater numbers now?  Why haven't their populations expanded?  Why haven't they come down to fill the area?  What do you suggest a grizz would eat, away from human populations, in the north cascades?  There are very few fish up there... I'm not sure if you've ever gone up there looking for deer, but they are few and far between.  The higher deer populations are nearest populated areas. 

I'm not afraid that they wont have food because I'm concerned for their survival.  I'm concerned that 100 bears dumped in the north cascades would not be able to find food and would find their way down low to get the sustenance they require.

Is your proposition that their diet would be mainly deer?  Blacktail?  Mule Deer?  There aren't many deer up there really...

[JLS]

If the habitat and food are great... why aren't they there in greater numbers now?  Why haven't their populations expanded?  Why haven't they come down to fill the area?

Grizzly bears are very slow colonizers of new territory.  Even in undisturbed habitat with low odds of human/bear conflicts, they don't colonize new areas very rapidly.  Factor in human conflicts and subsequent bear mortality or relocation and it can become very difficult for bears to utilize available habitat.  As an example, the Gravelly and Snowcrest Ranges in Montana have only established a resident population of grizzlies in the last 8-10 years, despite being only 20-40 air miles from Yellowstone National Park.  It's not for lack of habitat.

What do you suggest a grizz would eat, away from human populations, in the north cascades?  There are very few fish up there... I'm not sure if you've ever gone up there looking for deer, but they are few and far between.  The higher deer populations are nearest populated areas.

Did you read the attached PDF article?  Grizzlies can survive anywhere a black bear can.  They can survive based on a diet that is very high in plant based foods.  They don't need humans, fish, or deer.

Is your proposition that their diet would be mainly deer?  Blacktail?  Mule Deer?  There aren't many deer up there really...

There are healthy populations of grizzlies in the Badger-Two Medicine area, despite low densities of deer, elk, and moose.

[luvmystang67]

I can buy that that could... but I do find it strange in the nearly 50 years that its been illegal to hunt them that they haven't recolonized this fruitful area... if it indeed a habitat they prefer.

My problem is also a similar issue that I have with the NE woodland caribou... There are plenty of woodland caribou in the world.  The fact that we're near the very extreme end of their historical range makes me a little less likely to support their continued success in those areas.  Imagine hunting the Seattle area 300 years ago... I'm sure it was excellent.  Things change, climate changes, populations change... I'm very okay with no bears choosing to inhabit an area that they could freely choose to travel to.  Adding bears to ensure they're around in an area where we feel like they should be seems very foolish. 

I still think you'd see more in populated areas than in mountainous areas due to the increased availability of food.

[JLS]

I can buy that that could... but I do find it strange in the nearly 50 years that its been illegal to hunt them that they haven't recolonized this fruitful area... if it indeed a habitat they prefer.

I can name you a number of mountain ranges that SHOULD be easy for grizzly bears to recolonize, yet they don't.  And these are areas with a very healthy core population nearby.  Maybe something is unique or has changed that is preventing bears from colonizing this area.  I doubt it, but not everything is as simple as it may seem on the surface.

Things change, climate changes, populations change... I'm very okay with no bears choosing to inhabit an area that they could freely choose to travel to.  Adding bears to ensure they're around in an area where we feel like they should be seems very foolish.

I agree with you here. 

I still think you'd see more in populated areas than in mountainous areas due to the increased availability of food.

Possibly.  However, it's only been in the last 15 years or so that grizzlies have begun frequenting the prairies off of the Eastern Front of the Rocky Mountains.  Even still, this is more an exception than the rule.  I can easily see some areas where grizzlies could/would prefer to hit foothill regions late in the summer when fruit is readily available.  I doubt they would reside exclusively in those areas for a variety of reasons.

[IBspoiled]

this is going to be fun, camping in the wilderness with the wife and kids will soon be a thing of the past

[heronblu]

Considering the number of people who camp out each year vs the number of fatal attacks by bears I'd say you are pretty safe to continue camping. Also note that the number of black bear fatalities is nearly the same or in some cases outnumbers that of the grizzlies. Whether we are aware of it or not there are predators out there and generally speaking they are either fearful of us or could care less about our existence. Don't let fear rule your world. Carry bear spray if you are nervous about it but know the facts before you decide to alter your behavior or encourage others to change theirs.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America#2010s

http://www.backpacker.com/news-and-events/news/trail-news/ask-a-bear-how-many-bear-attacks-really-2/