Heat Pumps, need advice

[Ebell]

We went to the Everett home show yesterday to get bids on heat pumps.  We met with 4-5 different vendors and I just got inundated with information.  Some companies would sell us anything to make money, while a few wanted to make sure we purchased something that would save us money and make sense for us.  So needless to say we left feeling confused and not trusting any of the companies we spoke to.
I've heard from others that when the temperature drops below 40 degrees the heat pumps aren't very efficient and your furnace ends up taking over the workload.  This defeats the purpose in us wanting a heat pump.   Others recommended we replace our furnace at the same time as the heat pump install to save money down the road.   One company had a type of pump that was called an inverter, that supposedly was more efficient as the temperature dropped and would take the load off of the furnace and drop our propane usage in half. 
Specifics:  13 year old home, original furnace with regular maintenance performed, propane, around 1900sf and we live outside of Granite Falls.
Does anyone have advice they'd like to share with me?    Thanks for your time.

Eric

[lamrith]

You want to meet further with those folks that said they want to make sure you get what you need.  Heating/cooling are completely specific t the home.  They cannot go just based on sq footage and quote you, they need to come out and look at the home, layout, etc so they can give a proper recommendation on tonnage.

True heat pumps are not great at very cold temps.  Even here in Tacoma, each year we get long streaks and nights @ 30*, so you will need auxilary heat source for when the temps are too cold for the heatpump to work.  That can be oil, Nat Gas, electricity, all depends on what you have access to and is cheapest.  That said moderate temps they are great, and here in WA we spend most of the year in moderate temps so they do pay off quickly.  Better yet you gain AC in the summer.  Ask about 24hr fan, our system came with it and we find it helps keep more even temps.  Basically the fan runs on low 24/7, so no cold, hot, cold cycling and by constant air movement the heating unit can run lower temp, rather than crank at max for 10min and shut down, then come back on and do it again..

Yes you will want them to replace the furnace you have unless it is only a few years old.  When we had ours done we had them pull out the old worn oil furnace and we went with electric for the aux heat.  Our heating bill dropped bigtime.

There are options also with your ducting.  If it is in good shape then they can mate to existing, maybe just add insulation, or do a full replace, just lots of options that will all swing the price.  We went with a Carrier system and have been quite happy with it.  Been running 10yrs without service, just replace filters every 6 mos or so.  though it is due now.

Not heard of invertor, but I would definitely research that on the net allot more before I took the gamble.  Could be something new, could be new name for something old, etc.

[Ebell]

Thanks for the feedback Lamrith!

[Zardoz]

You want to meet further with those folks that said they want to make sure you get what you need.  Heating/cooling are completely specific t the home.  They cannot go just based on sq footage and quote you, they need to come out and look at the home, layout, etc so they can give a proper recommendation on tonnage.

True heat pumps are not great at very cold temps.  Even here in Tacoma, each year we get long streaks and nights @ 30*, so you will need auxilary heat source for when the temps are too cold for the heatpump to work.  That can be oil, Nat Gas, electricity, all depends on what you have access to and is cheapest.  That said moderate temps they are great, and here in WA we spend most of the year in moderate temps so they do pay off quickly.  Better yet you gain AC in the summer.  Ask about 24hr fan, our system came with it and we find it helps keep more even temps.  Basically the fan runs on low 24/7, so no cold, hot, cold cycling and by constant air movement the heating unit can run lower temp, rather than crank at max for 10min and shut down, then come back on and do it again..

Yes you will want them to replace the furnace you have unless it is only a few years old.  When we had ours done we had them pull out the old worn oil furnace and we went with electric for the aux heat.  Our heating bill dropped bigtime.

There are options also with your ducting.  If it is in good shape then they can mate to existing, maybe just add insulation, or do a full replace, just lots of options that will all swing the price.  We went with a Carrier system and have been quite happy with it.  Been running 10yrs without service, just replace filters every 6 mos or so.  though it is due now.

Not heard of invertor, but I would definitely research that on the net allot more before I took the gamble.  Could be something new, could be new name for something old, etc.

   In this environment you can't beat the heat pump for it's flexibility. We had one for 6 years and it was great.

[Lucky1]

You want to meet further with those folks that said they want to make sure you get what you need.  Heating/cooling are completely specific t the home.  They cannot go just based on sq footage and quote you, they need to come out and look at the home, layout, etc so they can give a proper recommendation on tonnage.

True heat pumps are not great at very cold temps.  Even here in Tacoma, each year we get long streaks and nights @ 30*, so you will need auxilary heat source for when the temps are too cold for the heatpump to work.  That can be oil, Nat Gas, electricity, all depends on what you have access to and is cheapest.  That said moderate temps they are great, and here in WA we spend most of the year in moderate temps so they do pay off quickly.  Better yet you gain AC in the summer.  Ask about 24hr fan, our system came with it and we find it helps keep more even temps.  Basically the fan runs on low 24/7, so no cold, hot, cold cycling and by constant air movement the heating unit can run lower temp, rather than crank at max for 10min and shut down, then come back on and do it again..

Yes you will want them to replace the furnace you have unless it is only a few years old.  When we had ours done we had them pull out the old worn oil furnace and we went with electric for the aux heat.  Our heating bill dropped bigtime.

There are options also with your ducting.  If it is in good shape then they can mate to existing, maybe just add insulation, or do a full replace, just lots of options that will all swing the price.  We went with a Carrier system and have been quite happy with it.  Been running 10yrs without service, just replace filters every 6 mos or so.  though it is due now.

Not heard of invertor, but I would definitely research that on the net allot more before I took the gamble.  Could be something new, could be new name for something old, etc.

Lots of good info in Lamrith's post. The inverter heat pumps are the most efficient. They are also expensive.
Like he says, it is usually around 40 degrees most of the winter and a air to air heat pump works well at that temperature. Your contractor will set you up with a thermostat that will switch you over from heat pump to your propane furnace when it gets real cold outside. You can change the switchover  temperature to meet your comfort expectations if you are not satisfied with the setting. Get three bids. There will be lots of information to sift through. It may seem overwhelming at first. Don't let the professional salesmen pressure you into making a quick decision. A basic 14 SEER heat pump will save you some money on your heating bills.

[fish vacuum]

I've heard from others that when the temperature drops below 40 degrees the heat pumps aren't very efficient and your furnace ends up taking over the workload. 

A wood stove runs better as the temp drops. Just sayin'.

[SpringerFan]

Best thing we ever did was get a heat pump installed. Our furnace is natural gas but it is barely used unless we get a cold streak. But if you consider our weather on the wetside it makes great sense. The reason they are more efficient than just a furnace and having air conditioning is a heat pump doesn't just force warm or cool air in to your house. It works like a freezer or refrigerator in that when it cools, it is pulling warm air out of your house and replacing it with cool. Just the opposite when heating.

For the few weeks that your furnace would have to heat your house you will still come out ahead. Plus just think how well you will sleep on those days that are 90 plus degrees and your house is nice and cool.

[baker5150]

You want to meet further with those folks that said they want to make sure you get what you need.  Heating/cooling are completely specific t the home.  They cannot go just based on sq footage and quote you, they need to come out and look at the home, layout, etc so they can give a proper recommendation on tonnage.

True heat pumps are not great at very cold temps.  Even here in Tacoma, each year we get long streaks and nights @ 30*, so you will need auxilary heat source for when the temps are too cold for the heatpump to work.  That can be oil, Nat Gas, electricity, all depends on what you have access to and is cheapest.  That said moderate temps they are great, and here in WA we spend most of the year in moderate temps so they do pay off quickly.  Better yet you gain AC in the summer.  Ask about 24hr fan, our system came with it and we find it helps keep more even temps.  Basically the fan runs on low 24/7, so no cold, hot, cold cycling and by constant air movement the heating unit can run lower temp, rather than crank at max for 10min and shut down, then come back on and do it again..

Yes you will want them to replace the furnace you have unless it is only a few years old.  When we had ours done we had them pull out the old worn oil furnace and we went with electric for the aux heat.  Our heating bill dropped bigtime.

There are options also with your ducting.  If it is in good shape then they can mate to existing, maybe just add insulation, or do a full replace, just lots of options that will all swing the price.  We went with a Carrier system and have been quite happy with it.  Been running 10yrs without service, just replace filters every 6 mos or so.  though it is due now.

Not heard of invertor, but I would definitely research that on the net allot more before I took the gamble.  Could be something new, could be new name for something old, etc.

Lots of good info in Lamrith's post. The inverter heat pumps are the most efficient. They are also expensive.
Like he says, it is usually around 40 degrees most of the winter and a air to air heat pump works well at that temperature. Your contractor will set you up with a thermostat that will switch you over from heat pump to your propane furnace when it gets real cold outside. You can change the switchover  temperature to meet your comfort expectations if you are not satisfied with the setting. Get three bids. There will be lots of information to sift through. It may seem overwhelming at first. Don't let the professional salesmen pressure you into making a quick decision. A basic 14 SEER heat pump will save you some money on your heating bills.

All good info

Inverter heat pumps are amazing.  If you get the correct brand.  Some brands fully modulate (change speeds) to match the load of the house, and others say they do, but actually don't, they have a few fixed speeds and move between them.
Trane/American Standard produces the only true modulating heat pump system from a domestic manufacturer.
I have one, and I run that thing down to 20 degrees before switching to gas.

Ductless systems are MUCH cheaper.  Mitsubishi's "Hyper Heat" systems deliver full capacity down to 17 degrees.

You need to have a heat load calc done on your home.  Anyone who comes in and doesn't do one is just guessing.
They also need to do a static pressure test on the existing system to see if it can handle having a coil installed.  9 times out of 10 the ductwork needs to be addressed. 

I would recommend replacing the existing furnace as well.  13 years old doesn't seam too bad, but technology has come a long way in this trade since then.
And it's cheaper to do it now while the system is apart.  You'll save some on labor costs.

Let me know if you have any questions.  I can recommend a Trane dealer near you if you would like.

[lamrith]

You want to meet further with those folks that said they want to make sure you get what you need.  Heating/cooling are completely specific t the home.  They cannot go just based on sq footage and quote you, they need to come out and look at the home, layout, etc so they can give a proper recommendation on tonnage.

True heat pumps are not great at very cold temps.  Even here in Tacoma, each year we get long streaks and nights @ 30*, so you will need auxilary heat source for when the temps are too cold for the heatpump to work.  That can be oil, Nat Gas, electricity, all depends on what you have access to and is cheapest.  That said moderate temps they are great, and here in WA we spend most of the year in moderate temps so they do pay off quickly.  Better yet you gain AC in the summer.  Ask about 24hr fan, our system came with it and we find it helps keep more even temps.  Basically the fan runs on low 24/7, so no cold, hot, cold cycling and by constant air movement the heating unit can run lower temp, rather than crank at max for 10min and shut down, then come back on and do it again..

Yes you will want them to replace the furnace you have unless it is only a few years old.  When we had ours done we had them pull out the old worn oil furnace and we went with electric for the aux heat.  Our heating bill dropped bigtime.

There are options also with your ducting.  If it is in good shape then they can mate to existing, maybe just add insulation, or do a full replace, just lots of options that will all swing the price.  We went with a Carrier system and have been quite happy with it.  Been running 10yrs without service, just replace filters every 6 mos or so.  though it is due now.

Not heard of invertor, but I would definitely research that on the net allot more before I took the gamble.  Could be something new, could be new name for something old, etc.

Lots of good info in Lamrith's post. The inverter heat pumps are the most efficient. They are also expensive.
Like he says, it is usually around 40 degrees most of the winter and a air to air heat pump works well at that temperature. Your contractor will set you up with a thermostat that will switch you over from heat pump to your propane furnace when it gets real cold outside. You can change the switchover  temperature to meet your comfort expectations if you are not satisfied with the setting. Get three bids. There will be lots of information to sift through. It may seem overwhelming at first. Don't let the professional salesmen pressure you into making a quick decision. A basic 14 SEER heat pump will save you some money on your heating bills.

All good info

Inverter heat pumps are amazing.  If you get the correct brand.  Some brands fully modulate (change speeds) to match the load of the house, and others say they do, but actually don't, they have a few fixed speeds and move between them.
Trane/American Standard produces the only true modulating heat pump system from a domestic manufacturer.
I have one, and I run that thing down to 20 degrees before switching to gas.

Ductless systems are MUCH cheaper.  Mitsubishi's "Hyper Heat" systems deliver full capacity down to 17 degrees.

You need to have a heat load calc done on your home.  Anyone who comes in and doesn't do one is just guessing.
They also need to do a static pressure test on the existing system to see if it can handle having a coil installed.  9 times out of 10 the ductwork needs to be addressed. 

I would recommend replacing the existing furnace as well.  13 years old doesn't seam too bad, but technology has come a long way in this trade since then.
And it's cheaper to do it now while the system is apart.  You'll save some on labor costs.

Let me know if you have any questions.  I can recommend a Trane dealer near you if you would like.

Load calc, THAT is the term I was trying to remember when I posted...  I had a few done by our installer to compare bigger system, versus smaller system and paying for insulation improvements.  Insulation upgrades are always a good idea to consider if possible, as they save you regardless of the system installed.

Lot cheaper to do a new furnace at install for sure, as they have it all apart and it goes in seamlessly instead or paying a second crew labor to splice something in a year or two later.  Was a real no brainer for me as I had an original oil furnace form 1955 in my home.  It was running good, but heating oil was skyrocketing so we went electric.  Thank god we did too, the furnace kettle was riddled with holes all along the top!

Our home the big main trunk lines for return and hot air were good so we just had new ducting done form trunk to vents.  The one bad thing with our install was that they were supposed to clean out our return trunk line and did not, so 1st 2 filters were clogged quickly when the system fired up.

[Ebell]

Thank you everyone for giving me their feedback on this. I'm meeting with the first vendor this evening and more are scheduled next week.  We'll just have to see if it makes sense for us to do this now.

Eric

[follow maggie]

You want it sized to your space, or it won't be efficient, and won't last as long. The duct size is important in some cases, too. Get an inverter model if you can afford it, they work much better when it's cold. I have a ductless heat pump on my house, which uses an inverter. It has no problem heating my house by itself when the temperature drops into the teens.

[Mark Brenckle]

If you're considering the inverter model there are a couple things to keep in mind. The amount of time it will run when temps are colder than a normal heat pump will run, which is probably about 30-45 days per year or so total. With your furnace being propane, not electric, the payback for the extra cost could be decades. In other words, if the amount saved by getting the inverter model doesn't cover the cost of the upgrade within the life expectancy of the unit, you're losing money.
  As for the fan running 24x7, yes the overall temps will be a little more constant, but again, what is the cost of running that motor, both in electricity and maintenance costs? Again, you have to decide that. With the variable speed fans, they do save money by ramping down, but they're not cheap to replace. 
  With your home only being 13 years old, I would guess your insulation and ducting is fine. Have them throw in a free return duct cleaning and leave the rest of it alone.

[baker5150]

If you're considering the inverter model there are a couple things to keep in mind. The amount of time it will run when temps are colder than a normal heat pump will run, which is probably about 30-45 days per year or so total. With your furnace being propane, not electric, the payback for the extra cost could be decades. In other words, if the amount saved by getting the inverter model doesn't cover the cost of the upgrade within the life expectancy of the unit, you're losing money.
  As for the fan running 24x7, yes the overall temps will be a little more constant, but again, what is the cost of running that motor, both in electricity and maintenance costs? Again, you have to decide that. With the variable speed fans, they do save money by ramping down, but they're not cheap to replace. 
  With your home only being 13 years old, I would guess your insulation and ducting is fine. Have them throw in a free return duct cleaning and leave the rest of it alone.

I have to disagree,
The duct system MUST be tested for leakage and static pressure.  It must also be tested after leaks are fixed, and after the new equipment is installed.
Rated system performance means absolutely nothing if the duct system is leaking or has too high of a static pressure.
One man shows/ Fly by nights have been slapping ductwork into homes that is WAY too small for the last 15 to 20 years.
They install what fits, not what the system requires.

These are simple tests that ALL HVAC companies need to be doing, if they aren't, they better start, or their asking for a lawsuit when the system won't work as promised/premature failure.

[BNAElkhntr]

tag

[Mark Brenckle]

If you're considering the inverter model there are a couple things to keep in mind. The amount of time it will run when temps are colder than a normal heat pump will run, which is probably about 30-45 days per year or so total. With your furnace being propane, not electric, the payback for the extra cost could be decades. In other words, if the amount saved by getting the inverter model doesn't cover the cost of the upgrade within the life expectancy of the unit, you're losing money.
  As for the fan running 24x7, yes the overall temps will be a little more constant, but again, what is the cost of running that motor, both in electricity and maintenance costs? Again, you have to decide that. With the variable speed fans, they do save money by ramping down, but they're not cheap to replace. 
  With your home only being 13 years old, I would guess your insulation and ducting is fine. Have them throw in a free return duct cleaning and leave the rest of it alone.

I have to disagree,
The duct system MUST be tested for leakage and static pressure.  It must also be tested after leaks are fixed, and after the new equipment is installed.
Rated system performance means absolutely nothing if the duct system is leaking or has too high of a static pressure.
One man shows/ Fly by nights have been slapping ductwork into homes that is WAY too small for the last 15 to 20 years.
They install what fits, not what the system requires.

These are simple tests that ALL HVAC companies need to be doing, if they aren't, they better start, or their asking for a lawsuit when the system won't work as promised/premature failure.

  I'll admit I have near zero experience with residential duct work, new or old. I stand by the rest of my post. 
  Are there independent testing companies out there for this testing? Similar to a TAB contractor in commercial HVAC?

[trophyhunt]

We have had our heat pump for over 11 years, no problems, absolutely love it. 

[ruttnbuck]

As a service tech for a carrier dealer I usually tell my customers if they're considering upgrading from a gas furnace to a hybrid system I recommend  keeping it simple . A home that's 13 yrs old is more then likely well insulated and duct work is up too date.  I'm not a big fan of the new green speed inverter driven heatpumps yet due to the fact there still fairly new and allot of problems have come up from factory issues that are still getting ironed out.  I'm more for the 2 speed 25hnb carrier model its been flawless from what I've seen.  As far as losing efficiency in colder weather,  very rarely will the gas kick on due to the new puron 410a refrigerant  that's comes in all new equipment . After a year's time I can look at the customers history of gas  furnace usage  on the user interface and mostly its only used for defrost operation which usually only last about 3 min at a time.  My home is 1800sqft I put in a lower priced system just a single stage compressor and kept it simple I set my heatpump lockout to 20 degrees and even when its down into the 20,s I don't notice a temp difference throught my supplies. Don't get me wrong the inverter driven equipment is  definitely the next best thing but sometimes it doesn't pay for the added bells and whistles.