Hatchery Fish

[270Shooter]

I know that not all hatchery raised fish are clipped. But only 5%? I'm just not buying that. If that were the case why are the dam counts almost always in favor of hatchery fish or 50/50 hatchery/wild ratio. Those numbers are just not correct.

[drysideshooter]

I know that not all hatchery raised fish are clipped. But only 5%? I'm just not buying that. If that were the case why are the dam counts almost always in favor of hatchery fish or 50/50 hatchery/wild ratio. Those numbers are just not correct.

It shocked me too, and came straight from the retired biologist. He said it's largely a matter of available labor and timing. He said there is a relatively short window when they can clip the fish without having a much higher mortality rate from the handling necessary to do it, and that a person can only clip so many fish in a day.  I know exactly what you mean about the fish counts going over the dams and how it shows how many more hatchery fish there are.  Many of them are done via video now, but if the clipped fin is the only way of identifying hatchery fish I agree that it would seem the 5% number would have to be low.  I asked him about the percentage more than once just because I had no idea it would be anywhere near that low.  I am going to do what I can to verify if it is indeed good information, but at this point have no reason to doubt it.

[270Shooter]

I know that not all hatchery raised fish are clipped. But only 5%? I'm just not buying that. If that were the case why are the dam counts almost always in favor of hatchery fish or 50/50 hatchery/wild ratio. Those numbers are just not correct.

It shocked me too, and came straight from the retired biologist. He said it's largely a matter of available labor and timing. He said there is a relatively short window when they can clip the fish without having a much higher mortality rate from the handling necessary to do it, and that a person can only clip so many fish in a day.  I know exactly what you mean about the fish counts going over the dams and how it shows how many more hatchery fish there are.  Many of them are done via video now, but if the clipped fin is the only way of identifying hatchery fish I agree that it would seem the 5% number would have to be low.  I asked him about the percentage more than once just because I had no idea it would be anywhere near that low.  I am going to do what I can to verify if it is indeed good information, but at this point have no reason to doubt it.

yeah that just seems way too low to me. I do think you are correct that wild fish are generally more willing to bite a lure or bait. There are times when we fish drano where the ratio of hatchery to wild fish caught for our boat is 1/8. Especially when the water gets warm and most of the fish aren't as active it seems the fish that we do catch are almost always wild. This year was the exception as there seemed to be a lot of hatchery fish in there this summer and we limited every trip that I went on.

[drysideshooter]

Take a look at the Bonneville fish numbers for the last week for steelhead, granted they are pretty low.  They are running from about 31% wild to 37% wild. It seems somewhat consistent enough, at least looking at that week, that I wonder if they are applying a percentage rather than actually looking for clipped fins? I just read something online about a fish clipping machine that is apparently in use that also inserts a color coded wire into the snout. From what I can tell it's on a trailer and probably not utilized for all fish. I have read a few things that say that 100% clipping is the goal and other things saying it's required.

I read something from 2003 that said legislation requires all federally funded salmon and steelhead to be marked.  Is there a chance that some fish are marked in a way that is detectable at the dams but not fin clipped? Are they trying to bolster the populations by only fin clipping a small percentage of hatchery fish while marking them another way that is detectable at the dams?

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Here's some info on how Idaho clips fins and implants the coded wires.

Again, I will say, clipping only 5% defeats any purpose for clipping and makes any data obtained from counting clipped fish irrelevant. While 100% is probably impossible with the number of fish being handled, the closer to 100% being clipped, the better the data.

That being said, there are a couple other ways to identify hatchery/wild fish. One is by marking the otoliths or ear bones of the young hatchery fish. Here is a quote on how it's done by the Prince William Sound Aquaculture Corporation where I fish in Alaska. From this page.   http://pwsac.com/news-resources/process/

"By manipulating the incubation water temperature, fish culturists can induce protein rings at regular intervals (otolith marks) that look somewhat like a bar-code.  This can be done in mass to 100% of the population.  This is an extremely valuable fisheries management tool as the adults return into a mixed stock fishery (hatchery fish are marked and natural stocks are not). "

Different hatcheries can use different intervals and fish caught in the wild can even be differentiated by the hatchery they came from.

Here's more info from ADF&G   http://mtalab.adfg.alaska.gov/OTO/marking.aspx

The other method of determining origin of stocks is by scale sampling. Here's a short article on how the Bristol Bay salmon fishery is manage by scale and flesh studies on fish caught 150 miles away in a test fishery at Port Moller. 

http://www.bbedc.com/?page_id=1405

[drysideshooter]

I am going to talk with the retired biologist again because I do have trouble believing the 5% number.  I could believe 5% not being clipped.  Either way, it appears pretty conclusive that the hatchery fish don't behave like the wild fish.

I just got back from fishing from Ice Harbor up to Fish Hook with a friend. He and I put in above the dam pretty frequently.  The parking lot was full of trucks and trailers, and there were more bank anglers by the dam and on the other side of the river by the dam than we have ever seen.  We counted 36 people fishing on the bank at Charbonneau.  It's a big river, so it certainly didn't feel crowded, but there were boats at most of the popular holes. We talked with some folks in another boat and it was their first time on that part of the river and they said it was because of the closure. They said they typically fished McNary.  We saw one wild fish landed on the bank there, and were told one hatchery fish had been caught all day.  When we got back to the ramp my friend talked with a guy he knew that was bank fishing. He said he had been there since before sunrise and nobody on the bank there had caught a fish yet.  Water was at 59.8 and there are a lot of fish. Some holding in a few areas and a lot traveling. They certainly don't seem to be biting regularly yet though.  We talked to quite a few of the other folks in boats and nobody had any luck, though one boat said they had a good take down and lost it.  We saw folks trolling plugs as well as slow trolling with bobbers.  I think the fish are seeing most of the popular presentations.  I am going back out tomorrow and am going to try some roe and some various yarnies.  They don't spawn until next spring.  Sooner or later they need to feed or at least for those that are on their redds get territorial.  Hoping it's soon.

[fish vacuum]

I don't buy the 5% number. Maybe that was the case years ago before that biologist retired. Or maybe there was a misunderstanding between the two of you.

[syoungs]

I just got back from ice harbor as well, saw 1 wild caught, and 2 others that never were landed on the bank, charboneau side. Missed one take down over there. Didn't see anything on the lock side, talked to a couple other boats, that had nothing as well. Though one said he saw 4 fish caught today.

I'm totally new to fishing ice harbor from a boat. Anyone got any pointers of where to be? I kinda just followed the crowd, anchored up in the shallow water on the charboneau side for awhile. Trolled the lock side and basin for a while, didn't mark a ton of fish, most I marked were over 25' deep.

[JJB11B]

I just got back from ice harbor as well, saw 1 wild caught, and 2 others that never were landed on the bank, charboneau side. Missed one take down over there. Didn't see anything on the lock side, talked to a couple other boats, that had nothing as well. Though one said he saw 4 fish caught today.

I'm totally new to fishing ice harbor from a boat. Anyone got any pointers of where to be? I kinda just followed the crowd, anchored up in the shallow water on the charboneau side for awhile. Trolled the lock side and basin for a while, didn't mark a ton of fish, most I marked were over 25' deep.

I am in the same boat, I've fished it from the bank more times than I can count. I am a McNary guy, learning curve is going to be sharp. PM me and we can compare notes.

[drysideshooter]

I just got back from ice harbor as well, saw 1 wild caught, and 2 others that never were landed on the bank, charboneau side. Missed one take down over there. Didn't see anything on the lock side, talked to a couple other boats, that had nothing as well. Though one said he saw 4 fish caught today.

I'm totally new to fishing ice harbor from a boat. Anyone got any pointers of where to be? I kinda just followed the crowd, anchored up in the shallow water on the charboneau side for awhile. Trolled the lock side and basin for a while, didn't mark a ton of fish, most I marked were over 25' deep.

I think we talked with you syoungs.  I was with a buddy in my 21' Northwest with grey top and upper hull.  You had told us that you missed a take down.  You were in a boat with one other guy and a lady?

The buddy I was with has fished that area for 18 years and said the fish not on the bite yet isn't all that unusual.  On our way home I came up with a technique we haven't tried that we both think may work.  I am going to give it a try this week and will post if it works. 

[syoungs]

Just me and my ol man, green nw jet freedom with a grey top, talked to everyone I could lol.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Here's some info on how Idaho clips fins and implants the coded wires.

Again, I will say, clipping only 5% defeats any purpose for clipping and makes any data obtained from counting clipped fish irrelevant. While 100% is probably impossible with the number of fish being handled, the closer to 100% being clipped, the better the data.

That being said, there are a couple other ways to identify hatchery/wild fish. One is by marking the otoliths or ear bones of the young hatchery fish. Here is a quote on how it's done by the Prince William Sound Aquaculture Corporation where I fish in Alaska. From this page.   http://pwsac.com/news-resources/process/

"By manipulating the incubation water temperature, fish culturists can induce protein rings at regular intervals (otolith marks) that look somewhat like a bar-code.  This can be done in mass to 100% of the population.  This is an extremely valuable fisheries management tool as the adults return into a mixed stock fishery (hatchery fish are marked and natural stocks are not). "

Different hatcheries can use different intervals and fish caught in the wild can even be differentiated by the hatchery they came from.

Here's more info from ADF&G   http://mtalab.adfg.alaska.gov/OTO/marking.aspx

The other method of determining origin of stocks is by scale sampling. Here's a short article on how the Bristol Bay salmon fishery is manage by scale and flesh studies on fish caught 150 miles away in a test fishery at Port Moller. 

http://www.bbedc.com/?page_id=1405

Whoops. Left out the Idaho info.

https://fishandgame.idaho.gov/content/question/dorsal-fin-clipping

[70sdiver]

I'm the old man that was with syoungs I been fishing McNary dam for a number of years and this year I've caught more keepers than any year I've ever fished McNary dam.I know nothing about fishing Ice harbor dam but I'll be going tomorrow and will keep everyone posted.I think one thing leads to really helping catch steelhead and that is good bait,the right color bait,the leader choice and of course my secret sauce.It really isn't a secret you can buy it it's called special mix .I dope my Columbia basin pink shrimp with special mix and mike's shrimp oil.fishing at 7 1/2 feet.Im going to see how Ice Harbor produces tomorrow and I'll report back.

[drysideshooter]

I did okay yesterday.  Lost one and landed four, with two being clipped keepers.  They were deep and in small groups relating to structure. Back trolled sonic batfish and 3/8 ounce bucktail jigs down to them.  Held once my lure was at the fish and jigged.  I have done that same thing on rainbows in Alaska when they weren't biting.   My wife and I have both caught steelhead fly-fishing the Deschutes by putting a fly repeatedly in front of a holding fish.  They often eventually get irritated and strike at the offending little offering. 

The forecast called for wind today and I don't like launching at the dam when it's windy.  I went below Ice Harbor first thing this morning and there wasn't a single fish below the dam.  Poked around on the way back to the mouth and didn't see much at all.  Figured since the closure didn't affect upstream of 395 I would poke around there.  Found a few small groups of fish but didn't get a taker until on the downstream end of Bateman.  Found a small group and went upriver and drifted back to just above them and held with anchor lock.  Drifted a sonic batfish down to then and started jigging.  On about the fifth lift it stopped and I had a fish on.  Got a beautiful chrome unclipped fish to the boat and released it. A few more hours on a couple other groups but no takers. 

Overall I am shocked how slow the bite is for salmon and steelhead around here.  Next week my wife and I are going back to walleye and bass.  If the steelhead bite really turns on we will go after then again.   Might go for some perch too.  Talked with a couple the other day at McNary that had slayed them up by Hat Rock somewhere.  Will go back to Alaska next year for the Chinook run on the Gulkana so I can remember what good salmon fishing is like.

[Sandberm]

I used to see an old boy at McNary every fall that would head upriver to parts unknown to catch perch. Just him and his dog and an old aluminum boat.

The wife and i went above Ice Harbor on Sunday afternoon. I like to pull plugs vs bobbers....just my preference, cant prove I do any better...and we each had a good strike but neither strike produced. What was interesting to me was that each strike was almost in the exact same spot on the river about three hours apart. We got our strikes on an orange Hot n tot and a pink Hotshot.

We didnt see any fish caught but my wife talked to a few guys in a boat that loaded up after us that had caught two salmon. Might go this weekend, rain permitting.