How Would You Handle This?

[Scott68]

Originally, this post was going to be about a GREAT hunting experience with my 11 year old daughter.  Instead, this post will be partly for purposes of venting and partly for purposes of getting a second opinion on my own actions.

My daughter passed her Hunter's Safety Course at age 10 and has been practicing with her bow ever since.  She walked with me last year (without her bow, even though she had passed the course) to learn how to walk in the forest, be quiet, keep her head up ... all the stuff that doesn't come naturally to a 10 year old.  I told her she had to learn this stuff before she could hunt.

This year, I allowed her to take her bow, but we were only going to "hunt" turkeys as she is not yet strong enough to hunt big game.  I put "hunt" in quotes because we weren't going to hunt in the traditional sense.  She was only going to take one arrow in her quiver so that she could learn how to properly knock an arrow in the field, but we agreed we would not actually shoot anything.  She needs to be more proficient before I'll allow her to start shooting at anything.  But, we would work on our stalking tactics, wind direction, yardage estimates, how to manipulate her pack, how to identify the proper turkey to target, her trigger, her guard ... all while in the field and not sitting at the range or in our living room ... again, all of the stuff that goes into being a successful hunter before "the kill" ever comes into play.

(Sorta' like my dad that made me pack a bb gun through the jungles of the Willapa Hills with him for two seasons before I even got to sniff the prospect of hunting with a firearm that could kill something).

My deal with my daughter was this:  in the mornings we'd hunt the timber for deer (I was rifle hunting) and she would walk with me with all of her gear ... for practice.  In the afternoons/evening, we would try to locate turkeys so that she could practice her skills.  (I'm not a bow hunter and I've never hunted turkeys, but she wants to bow hunt and hunt turkeys ... more power to her ... dad will learn with her and I'm just happy as heck that we can share this time together).


We hunted in areas between Chewelah and Kettle Falls that I've hunted in for the last 25 years and I'm very familiar with.  Through Friday afternoon, we'd been very unsuccessful in finding turkeys in the fields around where we had been focusing on deer hunting and my daughter was getting a little discouraged.  So, in the afternoon on Friday we went to lower ground near some fields where I was 100% certain we'd see turkeys ... and we did.  We rolled between the fields on a county road at dusk and she was like a kid at Christmas.  We didn't even get out of the truck, we just discussed the area and made a plan to come back in the morning (yeah ... dad's deer hunting was over after seeing how excited his daughter was ... just to practice!).

That night we discussed trespassing, farmer's fields, permission, knowing your surroundings, looking for posted areas, again, all of the stuff that you should be teaching your kid before they ever get out of the truck.

Saturday morning we were at the fields at daylight.  We found a field that was not fenced or posted, but we agreed we would NOT go in the field because we did not have permission to do so.  There were about 20 turkeys walking through the field that were approximately 15 yards away from the road where we parked. 

There was also a vehicle parked, nose into the field, that I assumed had been used by hunters to get to that location.  We could not see any hunters there (we could see no one in the field and no one around the field) and I assumed that whomever had gotten out of the truck had walked across the field to access the timber behind the field to hunt deer.

We got out of our truck making sure not to block the other vehicle and making sure not to park in the field.  We decided to parallel the turkeys as they walked through the field by staying on the road.  Our intent was to talk about yardage, wind, how to look at the land and determine where they might go, how to use her binocs to make sure they were beardless ... basically talk through a hunt as it was happening, without it actually culminating in shooting anything.  Keep in mind, we never went onto the property where the turkeys were.  We simply walked the road paralleling them.

We had only walked about 20 yards from our truck when we crested a little rise in the road.  From the rise, I could look to the middle of the field (approximately 300 yards away and situated in a bit of a depression in the field) and see a ground blind.  (At this point, the turkeys are between my daughter and I and the ground blind.  About 15 yards from us and about 300 yards from the ground blind).  Next to the ground blind, there is some standing there, in orange, with his hands on his hips.  (My daughter and I are still on the road).  I point out the ground blind to my daughter, explain to her that we wouldn't walk in on, or up to, someone else's hunt and we turned and walked back to our truck.  We never spooked the turkeys (there was a ditch and high grass between the edge of the road and the turkeys) and I am certain that the turkeys never knew we were even there.

We left that area and drove about 3 miles to a different location where I hoped we'd have another opportunity.  I told my daughter we'd come back there later in hopes of seeing if those hunters had been successful and if they were done hunting, maybe they'd let us get a look at their set-up and/or their harvest.

We also pointed out several fields/farms that we would come back and visit during the summer (I explained that approaching farmers during the season to ask permission isn't the best way to approach that situation) to ask permission and bring some fresh seafood to offer in exchange.

(Important note:  I'm about 6'3, 230 pounds.  My daughter is 4'10, 85 pounds.  It's pretty obvious when we're together that it's an adult and a child, and also important:  at NO point during anything I'm describing was I ever carrying a weapon of any sort.  My gun never left my truck.  The only weapon we had was the youth bow ... and one arrow ... that my daughter was carrying).

We got to a second field and had a very similar situation present itself; however, this field had a few more rolling hills and some interesting topography that made the "practice hunt" even more fun.  We parked and again paralleled the field, never leaving the county road.  (The field had no fencing and no signs, but was clearly being worked by someone at some point, so we didn't trespass).  We were able to walk parallel to the turkeys for about 150 yards and had a great time plotting out prospective ambush points and discussing different ways we could have made a hunt on them using the topography for cover.  It was a wonderful experience and my daughter was having a great time.  The turkeys eventually crossed the road about 10 yards in front of us and after they did so, we made our way back to our truck.

We were about 15 yards from our truck when I hear a vehicle come up behind us.  I look back and it's the vehicle from the field that we were at where the ground blind was located.  I stop by the driver's side of my vehicle, hoping he will stop so that I can find out how he did and if they have turkey, I'd like for my daughter to see it.  At that point, my daughter is at the passenger side of my vehicle taking off her gear and loading her bow into the truck.

The other guy stops.  I ask him, "how'd you do?".

He responds, very aggressively, with "do you have permission to hunt these fields?"

I said, "no".  (Honest answer)

It is immediately clear to me that this guy is itching for a confrontation.  He's obviously very agitated.  He also has two teenage girls with him (guessing they were his granddaughters) who had also been hunting with him and they are both staring straight down not wanting to even look at me standing at their grandfather's window.

Before I can say anything else, he lays into me.  Telling me that everything where I'm at is private (which was untrue ... as we were standing approximately 100 yards from a large tract of state land) and that I'd be turned in by any land owner that saw me.  He went on to state (yell?) that there was a fish and wildlife officer that lived close by and a sheriff's deputy that lived close by as well.  (I desperately wanted to tell him to give those guys a call and we could discuss the illegality of walking, unarmed, on a county road ... as I'm sure they would have enjoyed wasting their time with that call, but I controlled myself).

I'm watching and listening to this guy and I'm completely dumbfounded.  There was no way to anticipate this sort of confrontation and this guy is very worked up.  On top of that, he's at least 20 years older than me (probably mid/late 60's) and looks to be about half my size sitting in his truck.

I just stood ... and listened ... and reminded myself that I wasn't going to have a shouting match (or worse) with this guy in front of my daughter and his granddaughters, especially after what had been such an amazing experience with my daughter that morning.  By this point, my daughter is in the truck and can't hear what is being said and I'm sure she thinks I'm having a pleasant conversation with this guy.

So, rather than take his bait, I went the other direction (while refusing to acknowledge that we had done anything wrong ... which I know only made him more angry) and asked how their hunt had gone?  That really got him going.  He got more agitated and told me that they hadn't gotten anything and implied that I should know that because I "parked right behind his vehicle".

I shook my head and told him that we were never "behind his vehicle" and that for the roughly 2 minutes we were on the road we had no idea how their hunt had gone.

He then told me that I needed to "learn" where I could, and could not, hunt before taking my child into the field.  I told him I had hunted that area since the late 80's and that I was well aware of where I could, and could not, go.

Then, he pushed the button that just about got him ripped out of his vehicle.  He said, twice, that I was teaching my daughter "bad habits", implying that we had been trespassing.  As calmly as I could, I responded by saying, "no one is learning any bad habits here ... no one."  Then, I turned and walked back to my truck, rather than run the risk of doing something that I would regret for the rest of my life.

My daughter and I just called it a day and went somewhere else.  She could tell something had upset me, but I didn't want to project on her what had happened, especially with the gleeful experience she had just had and her desire to just keep on hunting.

Again, I was stunned.  This guy had seen my daughter and I actually in the field for less than 2 minutes that day, the vast majority of which was us walking to and from our truck.  Had he even thought about it rather than fly off the handle, he would have realized just by watching us that I was an adult that was teaching a child.  When we were at the site that he originally saw us at, if we were ACTUALLY hunting, we had multiple opportunities to start flinging arrows at turkeys, but we never did so.

I understand the frustration with trespassers.  I own acreage here on the west side that is prime elk hunting grounds, as such, I've had plenty of interactions with trespassers.

However, before ever confronting someone in a hostile manner, I would actually verify that they WERE trespassing.  I would actually want to SEE them hunting.  Anyone who would have watched my daughter and I for more than 30 seconds would have seen, clearly, that we were NOT trespassing and we were NOT hunting, (or we were the absolute WORST hunters on the entire planet ... lol!).

There were 100 other ways for this interaction to have happened, which would have still allowed this overly agitated kook to have learned what we were doing and to have ended our conversation on a pleasant note.  Which would have facilitated a stronger hunting community as opposed to an adversarial situation that never needed to have happened.

About me:  I do special assignment work for the Attorney General's Office.  I would never jeopardize my job by doing something as stupid as this guy was alleging I was doing.  Besides my job, my personal ethic would never allow me to engage in the type of behavior he was alleging.  I've always asked for permission before hunting on someone's property and in doing so, I've always brought something to exchange with the land owners in appreciation.  I've been contacted by people from this board to discuss legal issues they are having (both hunting related and not hunting related), and I've always volunteered my time to help them when I can.  I've been contacted by people on this board for help planning their elk hunts in the area where my land is located, and I've always done my best to help put them on elk.

I'm sorry for the novel, but what was an absolutely wonderful and educational experience for myself and my daughter was completely jaded by the actions of a buffoon who appointed himself the morality police in a scenario about which he had little or no knowledge.

[Mark Brenckle]

I have to say, you handled it much better than I would have.  I would've embarrassed that old man right in front of his grand kids, not necessarily with physical violence. Not that it would've changed his mind or his ways, but it would've made me feel better!  Glad your daughter got out there and learned some good stuff.

[TikkaT3-270Shortmag]

Sorry to hear that man

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[JLS]

unfortunately, you can't fix stupid

[Ridgeratt]

Well played Sir!!! You wonder what the other person kids were thinking

[csaaphill]

  what an ass that guy was. I've had a guy who I was driving down the road and got a guy behind me so I pull over to let him by, but instead of just going by he stops behind me gets out and comes up to my window asking me wtf I was doing. I took attitude right away, not one to toy with people, but said what you think I'm doing, and if he knew hunting season was open. Also smart assedley said "didn't know driving down back roads were illegal".
He was all "Well all these lands up and down these roads are no Trespassing and to stay off them" I said yeah but up the road a way there is a Feel free to hunt sign and if I have a notion I might just go there and nothing he said was going to stop me".
He in a huff said "Well just so you know" I said "yeah whatever". He got back in his truck and left I was miffed the rest the day though. 
Also one morning hunted a Feel free to hunt sign opening morning of bear. I'd walked to the top of the hill and along the field edge, then back down to my rig. I was hot thirsty and hungry so ate a bite to eat before leaving, while doing so this guy pulls up across the way from me, gets out obviously to relieve himself in the bushes Number two. 
After he's done he gets into his pickup and parks next to me and were talking politely at first as he asks me what I was doing etc... But as soon as I said bear hunting and said there was a feel free to hunt sign back there he gets all upset and starts saying well you stay the F out of here and there and every which way and then say's I'm lying and BS to my Feel free to hunt sign. So I get out and walk back to the sign he drives along with me for it's not just a few feet it's about 50-60 yards or so. (best pull out spot I had when I got here that morning as I didn't want to pull down into someone's driveway.) I get the  spot and show him, and sure enough there's the sign big as day crumpled but still readable. He's like "well make sure you don't go to the right then no trespassing that way" I'm like salute "Yes sir" 
I seen a video the other night as well where some kid in Utah was hunting Public land and some guy pulls up to him while hunting and try's to scare him away. The kid says No sir! this is Public land and I have an app and Assessor stuff I need to prove it. etc...  Finally the guy says " Well I was told I could tell people not to hunt here". and then leaves. 
some people want to over protect what they can't I guess. 

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[Thefishguy77]

He was an ass hat. May not be one normally in life we all have bad days. He was probably disappointed that he didn't get anything for his granddaughters. But that's on him. One of the most things to teach new hunters is it's called hunting not killing.  He probably felt like he let his grandkids down and used you as a scapegoat.

You handled it better than I would have and better than he should have expected you to. My hat goes off to you. Well done and way to teach you daughter the right way to enjoy the outdoors. Well done sir. well done


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[Curly]

Scott68, that sure was a well written story. You handled the situation very well.  Good on you for teaching your daughter like you are.

[Scott68]

Thank you all for your kind words.

This event really shook me up (as you can probably tell since I'm still worked up about it more than two days later). 

I argue with people for a living, but at least when I walk into the courtroom I'm anticipating the argument that's about to happen.

In this scenario, I never saw it coming.  When I'm in the woods, confrontation is the last thing on my mind, especially because I generally feel that as hunters, we're all in this together.

Had he simply pulled up and asked how things were going, we would have had a civil discussion.  If he was upset with what he THOUGHT we were doing (trespassing) he could have politely told us to be very careful because of all of the private ground and then simply gauged our response.  That would have given me a chance to explain that he was mistaken as to our activities and I'm sure we would just continued to talk hunting and all gone on our way without any hard feelings.

His level of agitation was kinda' scary.  When I wouldn't take the bait and engage him, he seemed to want to ramp up the vitriol.  I'm not sure what outcome he wanted, because he seemed content to continue his ranting until I simply walked away.  (The presence of the kids ... both his and mine ... is what really spurred me to disengage with this guy).

(And, I should probably point out, that I'm fairly certain that this guy wasn't local.  He had an "Arlington" reference on his license plate frame.  The way he spoke about the private ownership in the area implied that he wasn't local, but instead, was someone that had gotten "permission" to hunt on land owned by others).

[nwwanderer]

I have had 'people' try to chase me off of my own ground with that kind of attitude.  You handled it will.  Attempt to get permission on those fields and hunt on.  Thanks for helping your daughter, it is important. 

[PA BEN]

Good job on how you handled that man. We get  alot of not so bright hunters over here and he might have had a few bad run in's. Not to give him an excuse for his attitude. I do know in my area if a landowner saw what looked like hunters on the county rd. hunting the land along the rd. myself and most of my neighbors would ask what are you doing?  BTW, I do believe that practice hunting on a out of season turkey might not be a good idea. If a game warden saw you he might give you a ticket for hunting turkeys. Just FYI.   

[Curly]

I think turkey season was open.  http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/regulations/summary_hunting_dates.html#wildturkey

[BNAElkhntr]

You handled this well  your Daughter will remember this unexpected lesson,  not sure if you had it but a newer GPS with OnX would have shown this person  who was trying to dissuade anyone in the area the proper boundaries

[PA BEN]

I think turkey season was open.  http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/regulations/summary_hunting_dates.html#wildturkey

I bad, I looked at the wrong GMU. I think this is the first year they left it open through gen. deer season.

[Gringo31]

Sometimes the best lessons are in how to handle bad situations...