875 yard .308 Elk kill

[JDHasty]

Are you high? If you want to say a .308 isn't LR medicine, that's one thing. But saying you can hit it in the heart and lose the animal isn't your argument

You guys simply don't know what you are talking about.  You have probably been watching too much hunting on television wherein every elk that the hero touches with a bullet tips over and dies.  The dirty little secret that really isn't so secret is that what you get to see is actually put together from cuts from footage that leave out, as Paul Harvey used to say, The Rest of the Story.

A jacketed bullet that does not expand is not going to be any more lethal than would be shooting an elk with an arrow w/a field point on it.  Or as the Ballistic Engineer form Sierra I referenced in an earlier thread put it:  ... would be no more immediately lethal than stabbing them with a pencil. 

[BULLBLASTER]

Wow! 

I am so glad and feel very blessed that you are taking the time to educate us all with your unwavering knowledge hasty... 

You still haven't explained how the numerous elk and other animals shot with "target" bullets have ever died. By your posts it seems like there should still be thousands upon thousands of animals out there with pencil hole scars!

[jasnt]

A bullet that dosent expand still has kynetic energy. What happens when you shoot a milk jug with an fmj?

[Bob33]

Unlike pencils and arrows, bullets create hydrostatic shock even at velocities too slow to allow full expansion. The shock creates trauma and damages blood vessels in its wake. This effect can easily demonstrated by shooting a handgun bullet into a media such as ballistic gelatin.

To suggest that a big game bullet travelling at supersonic velocities which penetrates the heart or lungs of a big animal won’t kill it is foolish and ignorant of how bullets work.

[dontgetcrabs]

You guys simply don't know what you are talking about.  You have probably been watching too much hunting on television wherein every elk that the hero touches with a bullet tips over and dies.  The dirty little secret that really isn't so secret is that what you get to see is actually put together from cuts from footage that leave out, as Paul Harvey used to say, The Rest of the Story.

A jacketed bullet that does not expand is not going to be any more lethal than would be shooting an elk with an arrow w/a field point on it.  Or as the Ballistic Engineer form Sierra I referenced in an earlier thread put it:  ... would be no more immediately lethal than stabbing them with a pencil.

Do you believe the things you post or are you just trolling? 

[JDHasty]

Wow! 

I am so glad and feel very blessed that you are taking the time to educate us all with your unwavering knowledge hasty... 

You still haven't explained how the numerous elk and other animals shot with "target" bullets have ever died. By your posts it seems like there should still be thousands upon thousands of animals out there with pencil hole scars!

I have explained adnauseam that there is a difference between what is know as anecdotally derived conclusions and statistically valid conclusions that are derived from data that has been collected and analyzed using the "scientific method."   

The problem your average shade tree ballistics expert has is that they cannot hope to have the resources available to get to a valid conclusion and another issue is that they tend to discount data that does not support their desired outcome. 

I have never said that "numerous elk and other animals shot with "target" bullets have never died,"  that is you trying to set up a what is known as a straw man.  I have said that Sierra engineers have done exponentially more testing than  any shade tree ballistician and their conclusions were based on enough data to give their conclusions statistical probability of being valid  that your small set of data lacks.   

[JDHasty]

Even a 22 cal hole threw the heart would be a dead elk.

Also a 1 moa rifle should shoot 5" at 500 with out wind. If your getting an 18" group at 500 you may need a lesson On parallax. I've never known a long range guy to be happy with a moa gun. I average 2.5"-3" at 500 with wind but still not happy with that. Always chasing that better group.

That would be through, not threw.  Anyway: No it is not, not with a bullet that doesn't expand!

[Bob33]

Even a 22 cal hole threw the heart would be a dead elk.

Also a 1 moa rifle should shoot 5" at 500 with out wind. If your getting an 18" group at 500 you may need a lesson On parallax. I've never known a long range guy to be happy with a moa gun. I average 2.5"-3" at 500 with wind but still not happy with that. Always chasing that better group.

That would be trough, not threw.  Anyway: No it is not, not with a bullet that doesn't expand!

That would be "through", not "trough".

[JDHasty]

Unlike pencils and arrows, bullets create hydrostatic shock even at velocities too slow to allow full expansion. The shock creates trauma and damages blood vessels in its wake. This effect can easily demonstrated by shooting a handgun bullet into a media such as ballistic gelatin.

To suggest that a big game bullet travelling at supersonic velocities which penetrates the heart or lungs of a big animal won’t kill it is foolish and ignorant of how bullets work.

It may or may not kill it.  It PROBABLY will not kill it soon enough to recover the animal if it does kill it though.  But just because an elk is shot through the heart with a bullet that does not expand that does not mean it is going to tip over right where it is standing. 

[Jpmiller]

Don't we have the empirical evidence at post 1 of this thread that a bullet from a .308 can kill an elk quickly  at long range?

[JDHasty]

A bullet that dosent expand still has kynetic energy. What happens when you shoot a milk jug with an fmj?

Depends on striking velocity

[JDHasty]

You guys simply don't know what you are talking about.  You have probably been watching too much hunting on television wherein every elk that the hero touches with a bullet tips over and dies.  The dirty little secret that really isn't so secret is that what you get to see is actually put together from cuts from footage that leave out, as Paul Harvey used to say, The Rest of the Story.

A jacketed bullet that does not expand is not going to be any more lethal than would be shooting an elk with an arrow w/a field point on it.  Or as the Ballistic Engineer form Sierra I referenced in an earlier thread put it:  ... would be no more immediately lethal than stabbing them with a pencil.

I deal in fact


Do you believe the things you post or are you just trolling?

[coop2424]

I am glad that I now know that animals hearts can still function with holes through them!!  I didn't realize we were dealing with this kind of super animal.. Guess I need to rethink my weapon of choice.

[dontgetcrabs]

You guys simply don't know what you are talking about.  You have probably been watching too much hunting on television wherein every elk that the hero touches with a bullet tips over and dies.  The dirty little secret that really isn't so secret is that what you get to see is actually put together from cuts from footage that leave out, as Paul Harvey used to say, The Rest of the Story.

A jacketed bullet that does not expand is not going to be any more lethal than would be shooting an elk with an arrow w/a field point on it.  Or as the Ballistic Engineer form Sierra I referenced in an earlier thread put it:  ... would be no more immediately lethal than stabbing them with a pencil.

I deal in fact


Do you believe the things you post or are you just trolling?

No you deal in ignorance.

[JDHasty]

I am glad that I now know that animals hearts can still function with holes through them!!  I didn't realize we were dealing with this kind of super animal.. Guess I need to rethink my weapon of choice.

If you are one of the Volleyfire Brigade who advocate in favor of mag dumping at elk at ranges approaching a quarter mile w/an AR 15, or if you are sending hail Mary shots at two to three times that that distance w/a 308 then you very well might want to reconsider whether you want to continue down that road.