Can a Knight big horn 209 be switched to western legal?

[Euro mount]

As the title says I was wondering if all a guy had to do was order a different breach plug to convert it to western legal or is there a difference in the length of the bolt/firing pin?

[Buzz2401]

I have a knight bighorn and I can use 209, musket or regular caps.  Just have to change a few parts that came with gun.

[woodswalker]

I have a knight bighorn and I can use 209, musket or regular caps.  Just have to change a few parts that came with gun.

Exactly so..I have one also.

[Stein]

Yep, just need a different nipple to screw into the breech plug.  Everything else stays the same - except reliability in wet conditions.


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[Euro mount]

lol I know what you mean about wet conditions all to well

[Sabotloader]

lol I know what you mean about wet conditions all to well

Damp weather no biggie... just wrap the breech in plastic wrap

This is a side hammer but the idea remains the same and much easier with an inline breech...

[Euro mount]

That works most of the time ! This years elk hunt nothing worked it rained so much that week !

[Shadrach71]

Yes I too use a Bighorn and as stated just need to change the nipple out in order to be in compliance for WA.

[Stein]

lol I know what you mean about wet conditions all to well

Damp weather no biggie... just wrap the breech in plastic wrap

This is a side hammer but the idea remains the same and much easier with an inline breech...

The game warden at my son's hunter's ed class tickets that as it isn't exposed to the weather.  You can shelter it under your arm, but you can't tape over it or add anything to the gun that keeps it from being exposed to the weather.

[luvmystang67]

lol I know what you mean about wet conditions all to well

Damp weather no biggie... just wrap the breech in plastic wrap

This is a side hammer but the idea remains the same and much easier with an inline breech...

The game warden at my son's hunter's ed class tickets that as it isn't exposed to the weather.  You can shelter it under your arm, but you can't tape over it or add anything to the gun that keeps it from being exposed to the weather.

I've always wondered where this line was...

Its not super clear.

I know a lot of people that load up with petroleum jelly, nail polish, duct tape or whatever else to keep the water out.  Are these legal or illegal?

Is something like this illegal?
http://possibleshop.com/images-flint-supp/lc900.jpg

[Sabotloader]

It should be because it is not an integral part of the muzzleloader

[Oh Mah]

lol I know what you mean about wet conditions all to well

Damp weather no biggie... just wrap the breech in plastic wrap

This is a side hammer but the idea remains the same and much easier with an inline breech...

The game warden at my son's hunter's ed class tickets that as it isn't exposed to the weather.  You can shelter it under your arm, but you can't tape over it or add anything to the gun that keeps it from being exposed to the weather.

I've always wondered where this line was...

Its not super clear.

I know a lot of people that load up with petroleum jelly, nail polish, duct tape or whatever else to keep the water out.  Are these legal or illegal?

Is something like this illegal?
http://possibleshop.com/images-flint-supp/lc900.jpg

I don't think this would be legal,could end up being a warden judgement call..it is not open to the elements if its wrapped,covered may be diff.to be NW legal it only needs little holes but the holes allow air and moisture (elements) in

[Sabotloader]

Washington State Rule...

a.   Ignition is to be wheel lock, matchlock, flintlock, or percussion using original style percussion caps that fit on the nipple and are exposed to the weather. "Exposed to the weather" means the percussion cap or the frizzen must be visible and not capable of being enclosed by an integral part of the weapon proper.

When I presented the question to the WDFW Law Enforcement in an email.  I was told that the last sentence explained their boundaries. The rifle may not have a part built into the rifle that covers or does not allow the visibility of the percussion cap.

There are several devices fashioned by man to keep the breech dry.  These devices have been used long before us modern day hunters.  These devices are not an integral part of the rifle. An integral part would be something that is necessary for the rifle to function.

Cap covers are available as an add on, waxing a cap on can be done, putting a piece of leather around the breech is done and many other ingenious ways of water proofing the cap but none of these are an integral part of the rifle.

But... as has been stated could end up being a warden judgement call...

It would pay to check with the LEO in your area.

Also one way to beat the whole thing is to use #11 caps and a nipple that the cap fits on correctly.  If you have such a nipple the convolutions of the cap will be stretched flat when the cap goes on the nipple making it impervious to water,  the PROBLEM - the only way to get the cap off is to shoot it off or peal it off with a knife blade.

I really wish I could find the email form each of the Pacific North West LEO's

[Oh Mah]

"I REALLY WISH I COULD FIND THE EMAIL FROM EACH OF THE PACIFIC NORTH WEST LEO'S"

 Why was reply different from each one?

[Sabotloader]

"I REALLY WISH I COULD FIND THE EMAIL FROM EACH OF THE PACIFIC NORTH WEST LEO'S"

 Why was reply different from each one?

No it was basically the same but each States rule is writing differently.  Like Idaho's says the cap and nipple must be exposed and visible when in the firing position... If it in a safety position it could be covered - I guess...

[Oh Mah]

 

[JDHasty]

I have emailed WDFW Enforcement for a definitive answer.  This comes up all the time, and since my ML hunting is done in a Firearms Restricted area during Modern Season I did not have reason to pin down the answer.  But I am also a Hunter Ed Instructor and would like to have been able to give an opinion in the past.  Many times. 

I copied the photo and asked for a definitive answer, so unless and until WDFW responds one way or the other the default position is that it is GTG. 

[JDHasty]

Here is the response from WDFW.  I will archive the email in case any member ever needs it. 

Mr. Hasty-
 
I spoke with multiple officers and we came to the consensus that yes that would be legal because the tape isn’t considered an integral part of the weapon proper. Therefore it falls out of the verbiage described in the hunting pamphlet.
 
Good luck hunting!
 
Thank you,
Lexie

[BULLBLASTER]

Here is the response from WDFW.  I will archive the email in case any member ever needs it. 

Mr. Hasty-
 
I spoke with multiple officers and we came to the consensus that yes that would be legal because the tape isn’t considered an integral part of the weapon proper. Therefore it falls out of the verbiage described in the hunting pamphlet.
 
Good luck hunting!
 
Thank you,
Lexie

[Sabotloader]

Here is the response from WDFW.  I will archive the email in case any member ever needs it. 

Mr. Hasty-
 
I spoke with multiple officers and we came to the consensus that yes that would be legal because the tape isn’t considered an integral part of the weapon proper. Therefore it falls out of the verbiage described in the hunting pamphlet.
 
Good luck hunting!
 
Thank you,
Lexie

Really glad to see things have not changed...

[cm2cb4]

I have a bighorn and a Disc Extreme in western of course.  I've often wondered about using tape to cover the exposed area as it isn't integral. I still haven't tried it b/c it kinda falls into a gray area and open to interpretation (spirit vs letter of law). The one deciding that is the game warden, and I wouldn't want to have my stuff confiscated for the season and have to go through the legal battles when I can just use my gloved hand to cover the hole as part of my field carry of the weapon. But if you try it in the field and FWO says it's good to go, revisit this thread to let us know.

[JDHasty]

I have a bighorn and a Disc Extreme in western of course.  I've often wondered about using tape to cover the exposed area as it isn't integral. I still haven't tried it b/c it kinda falls into a gray area and open to interpretation (spirit vs letter of law). The one deciding that is the game warden, and I wouldn't want to have my stuff confiscated for the season and have to go through the legal battles when I can just use my gloved hand to cover the hole as part of my field carry of the weapon. But if you try it in the field and FWO says it's good to go, revisit this thread to let us know.

You can see that I asked for a definitive answer, so this is WDFW's official position on this subject.   

Hi,
 
Can you have someone provide me with a definitive answer to this question?
 
Please see the attached photo.  This has recently come up as a topic of discussion on Hunting-Washington.com and the photo was posted with this caption below it:  The game warden at my son's hunter's ed class tickets that as it isn't exposed to the weather.  You can shelter it under your arm, but you can't tape over it or add anything to the gun that keeps it from being exposed to the weather.
 
I have heard this same question posed at the Hunter Education classes that I participate by helping out in at Tacoma Rifle & Revolver Club and there were opposing opinions on whether this would, or would not, be legal during Muzzle Loader Seasons.
 
It would be nice to be able to have something to base an opinion on. 
 
Thank you

[Sabotloader]

I have a bighorn and a Disc Extreme in western of course.  I've often wondered about using tape to cover the exposed area as it isn't integral. I still haven't tried it b/c it kinda falls into a gray area and open to interpretation (spirit vs letter of law). The one deciding that is the game warden, and I wouldn't want to have my stuff confiscated for the season and have to go through the legal battles when I can just use my gloved hand to cover the hole as part of my field carry of the weapon. But if you try it in the field and FWO says it's good to go, revisit this thread to let us know.

If it concerns you I would print a copy of the email - who it went to and what the response was. Seal it in plastic and pack it into your hunting essentials. 

But, I can tell you this is the same basic answer I received 5 years ago from the Washington LEO's.

[luvmystang67]

Yeah, going to need a copy of this to keep my duct tape game strong.

Are the rules the same in Idaho? (sabotloader)?

[JDHasty]

Yeah, going to need a copy of this to keep my duct tape game strong.

Are the rules the same in Idaho? (sabotloader)?

Here it is: 

[Sabotloader]

Yeah, going to need a copy of this to keep my duct tape game strong.

Are the rules the same in Idaho? (sabotloader)?

Yes and Oregon also - anyway they were 5 years ago.

Idaho Rule

Equipped with an ignition system in which any portion of
the cap is exposed or visible when the weapon is cocked
and ready to fire.

You no what I can not find an Oregon rule specific to cap exposure

Oregon Rule

It is illegal to hunt with centerfire primers as an ignition source during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only.

[Bob33]

Yeah, going to need a copy of this to keep my duct tape game strong.

Are the rules the same in Idaho? (sabotloader)?

Yes and Oregon also - anyway they were 5 years ago.

Idaho Rule

Equipped with an ignition system in which any portion of
the cap is exposed or visible when the weapon is cocked
and ready to fire.

You no what I can not find an Oregon rule specific to cap exposure

Oregon Rule

It is illegal to hunt with centerfire primers as an ignition source during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only.

Does this help:

http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/pages/rules/oars_600/oar_635/635_045.html

(46) “Muzzleloader” is any single-barreled (shotguns may be double barreled) long gun meant to be fired from the shoulder and loaded from the muzzle with an open ignition system and open or peep sights.


(50) “Open Ignition” is an ignition system where the percussion cap, or frizzen, or flint is visible and exposed to the weather at all times and is not capable of being closed or covered by any permanent piece of the weapon.

[Sabotloader]

Yeah, going to need a copy of this to keep my duct tape game strong.

Are the rules the same in Idaho? (sabotloader)?

Yes and Oregon also - anyway they were 5 years ago.

Idaho Rule

Equipped with an ignition system in which any portion of
the cap is exposed or visible when the weapon is cocked
and ready to fire.

You no what I can not find an Oregon rule specific to cap exposure

Oregon Rule

It is illegal to hunt with centerfire primers as an ignition source during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only.

Does this help:

http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/pages/rules/oars_600/oar_635/635_045.html

(46) “Muzzleloader” is any single-barreled (shotguns may be double barreled) long gun meant to be fired from the shoulder and loaded from the muzzle with an open ignition system and open or peep sights.


(50) “Open Ignition” is an ignition system where the percussion cap, or frizzen, or flint is visible and exposed to the weather at all times and is not capable of being closed or covered by any permanent piece of the weapon.

GREAT - you found it - was pretty sure it existed but could not come up with it quickly...  even than as I found out several years ago man taking precautions with temporary devices still is OK...  As then and now the regulation pretty much spells it out...

Thanks Bob!

[Sabotloader]

Yeah, going to need a copy of this to keep my duct tape game strong.

Are the rules the same in Idaho? (sabotloader)?

Yes and Oregon also - anyway they were 5 years ago.

Idaho Rule

Equipped with an ignition system in which any portion of
the cap is exposed or visible when the weapon is cocked
and ready to fire.

You no what I can not find an Oregon rule specific to cap exposure

Oregon Rule

It is illegal to hunt with centerfire primers as an ignition source during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only.

Does this help:

http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/pages/rules/oars_600/oar_635/635_045.html

(46) “Muzzleloader” is any single-barreled (shotguns may be double barreled) long gun meant to be fired from the shoulder and loaded from the muzzle with an open ignition system and open or peep sights.


(50) “Open Ignition” is an ignition system where the percussion cap, or frizzen, or flint is visible and exposed to the weather at all times and is not capable of being closed or covered by any permanent piece of the weapon.

GREAT - you found it - was pretty sure it existed but could not come up with it quickly...  even now as I found out several years ago man taking precautions with temporary devices still is OK...  As then and now the regulation pretty much spells it out...

Thanks Bob!

[luvmystang67]

So it looks like WA and OR are the same.

My go-to on the barrel is duct tape. 

It appears to me that I could use Duct Tape on the breech in Idaho, but when I cocked it to fire, I'd have to take that off.  Or, I could use nail polish or vaseline or some other type of grease to coat my nipple.  Is that how you'd read Idaho?

[Sabotloader]

So it looks like WA and OR are the same.

My go-to on the barrel is duct tape. 

It appears to me that I could use Duct Tape on the breech in Idaho, but when I cocked it to fire, I'd have to take that off.  Or, I could use nail polish or vaseline or some other type of grease to coat my nipple.  Is that how you'd read Idaho?

I presented it as I have shown to the Idaho LEO... When the rifle as it is built is ready to fire ANY portion of the cap must be exposed or visible.  In all of my Western legal ML's that is true.  As a hunter if I choose to protect the breech - that is my choice as long as rifle was built with the exposure or visibility.

So in this case with the MK 85 or even a DISC I am meeting the visible portion of the requirement.  Even if I used a piece of tape or a leather cover the rifle is still built to meet the Idaho specification.

[HoofsandWings]

If you hunt only on sunny dry days, then you are good to go.