Hancock Kapowsin New Rules 2017

[grade-creek-rd]

Bitgtex...I can't see any judge allowing someone to be prosecuted when they have a pass to be on the lands and don't violate any state laws...a defense would be that Hancock's rules are arbitrary and only agreed upon for access and so therefore the only penalty for breaking such "self imposed" rules are to lose access, not be criminally charged in violation of a state law that clearly wasn't broken (in order to trespass you have to do so unlawfully...which is break a law, not just a Hancock rule). Hopefully a game agent who would be called would understand this...It's no different than if I buy a ticket to see a movie and then leave my cell phone on even though the theater has a "rule" to turn off all phones...they can't call the cops and have me arrested for trespassing for leaving my phone on inside the theater but they can kick me out and not refund my money.

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[fireweed]

Private land owners by law are not allowed to make up there own hunting laws.  They can charge for access if they want.  They can work with the game dept to come up with special permit opportunities for themselves and others.  But they aren't supposed to make up their own laws.

Not true.

A landowner can enact their own stipulations (or regs if you want to call them that) for hunting on their lands. These stipulations can be more restricted then the state regs, but can't be looser then the state regs. What Hancock did was restrict the state regs even further.

For example, a landowner with land in an "any deer" unit can say I'll let you on my land but you can only shoot bucks with a 3pt minimum. Now if he shoots a 2pt is it poaching, no not under state laws. But he can be charged for trespass since he broke the landowner's regulations.

The WDFW sent all of this power to big private landowners a few years ago when they facilitated the "hunting while trespassing" law.  Before that if you followed the WDFW rules, the landowner could only get you for trespassing.  After that law was put in, the landowner became a game farm manager--who could charge you with trespassing AND poaching if you broke their hunting rules (and not the state's hunting rules).  It opened the floodgate to landowners now doing this type of east-coast thing by creating their own game management rules on top of the states, and they now have two laws to use as a weapon.

The state legislature needs to fix this or we will have nothing but game farms masquerading as tree farms.  Breaking arbitrary corporate rules should not be the same as breaking state law.  If you follow state wildlife laws, the only punishment should be leave the area, lose your access permit privileges.

[fireweed]

Bigtex,

Serious question for ya (just in case others on here think I am being "funny" or sarcastic) but for trespassing you have to be on private lands without permission...and trespassing while hunting is being on private lands without permission and hunting...but if you are a pass holder, and it is open to pass holders so you have permission and it is legal to shoot a spike by state law how are you trespassing as you stated?

It's case law that's been applied under the criminal trespass statute. You are correct that there is not a codified statute in the WA trespass law that says you can't violate a landowner's rule. The courts have set a precedent that when someone/a company allows you onto their lands you do so at the will of the landowner and have to follow their stipulations. Once you break that stipulation you are trespassing.

Which is a way the law can be read--but some county sheriffs are taking the view that they DO NOT enforce corporate policy.  The Cowlitz County sheriff has, as you know, made this stand.  They will contact someone that is asked to leave, and cite that person if they refuse to leave, but will not enforce corporate policy  nor check permits.

[dvolmer]

Say what you want, but there isn't a jury in this state that will come close to convicting you of anything if you have paid a price for admission or have a note saying you can hunt and you follow WDFW limits and size restrictions in the pamphlet during the season for the species in question.  I'm not implying that I agree to any of this.  I'm simply saying the way it is.  I do STRONGLY feel that the animals belong to the people (public) not the individual land owner.  I do feel STRONGLY that the individual land owner has the right to grant access, charge for access, or keep people off of his land to his liking.  High fence farms that own the land and the animals can do what ever they want.  If the private land owner wants to add his own set of restrictions he can but they aren't enforceable until after the deed is done and all he can do is to make sure that the person in question is not given a pass or permission in the future. That is about all he can do.  Say what you want but no Jury in this state will say otherwise.

[chester]

The flaw in your logic is you sign a contract when you buy your permit agreeing to ABIDE BY THEIR RULES.

[grade-creek-rd]

Chester....the contract can't make up state laws and you can only be arrested for breaking state laws...

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[chester]

Pretty sure once you sign it, it's legally binding.
 

[cavemann]

The need so many have to debate just to debate is exhausting..  If you don’t like the rules, don’t buy a pass or join the club.  The idea that anyone would consider or challenge the rules by breaking them and use any of the excuses noted in this thread is sad..  The permit application is very clear what the rules are before you pay your $375..  It would take a special kind of person to agree, pay and access the property and willingly violate the rules behind the excuse that “legally” you are in your right..  Here’s your sign…..

[grade-creek-rd]

Its a civil contract only...legally binding for their rules that they can revoke your permit and not give your money back for breaking the rules...but you can't make up state laws enforced by the cops just because someone signs a piece of paper with made up rules...again, if I buy a movie ticket I am agreeing to adhere to the movie theatre rules and the ticket gives me access, if they say "no cell phone use during the movie" and I use my cell phone they can't call the cops and have me arrested for trespassing they can only kick me out without refund...

And caveman, I do agree with you that if you don't like the rules and aren't going to abide by them then don't buy the pass...that is not the argument here. What is being discussed is the fact that a landowner is making up their own "laws" and bigtex is saying you can go to jail for breaking up their made up rules...and the thread did take a turn (as they always do) as I originally posted this topic to highlight the changes...which happen to be a landowner making up their own game laws...slippery slope which started the debate.

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[ellensburgpo]

Its a civil contract only...legally binding for their rules that they can revoke your permit and not give your money back for breaking the rules...but you can't make up state laws enforced by the cops just because someone signs a piece of paper with made up rules...again, if I buy a movie ticket I am agreeing to adhere to the movie theatre rules and the ticket gives me access, if they say "no cell phone use during the movie" and I use my cell phone they can't call the cops and have me arrested for trespassing they can only kick me out without refund...

And caveman, I do agree with you that if you don't like the rules and aren't going to abide by them then don't buy the pass...that is not the argument here. What is being discussed is the fact that a landowner is making up their own "laws" and bigtex is saying you can go to jail for breaking up their made up rules...and the thread did take a turn (as they always do) as I originally posted this topic to highlight the changes...which happen to be a landowner making up their own game laws...slippery slope which started the debate.

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  not sure how violating a civil contract with a private corporation equals a criminal offense in this. It's a private company, they can't have your freedom taken from you over their rules. It's like saying if you drive 10mph in the Fred Meyer parking lot but it's posted 5mph you can go to jail for breaking their rules. The government decides what you go to jail for. Ie laws. I rarely disagree with you big Tex but I do in your assessment that it'd be trespassing if you broke their rules.

[Duckslayer89]

People may not like these rules, they probably still won't sell out on permits. Maybe sell less even. The two extra elk tags is a joke imo. They will sell out probably once deer number go back up because of reduced antlerless tags.

[Jpmiller]

Could the trespassing thing be that once you are in violation of the contract you are no longer legally allowed to be on property and therefore trespassing?

 I don't know why you would choose to shoot a spike if you know you're in for a fight. There was a guy I heard about near ellensburg that tried something similar (testing the rules of a hunt) and while he was found not guilty I don't think it worked out well for him.

[grundy53]

If you don't like the rules don't buy their pass.

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[ellensburgpo]

Could the trespassing thing be that once you are in violation of the contract you are no longer legally allowed to be on property and therefore trespassing?

By that logic I'm violating all kinds of places rules by having a chew in but it says no tobacco products. Or guys that carry guns at a business that request they not be carried. The logic of it being turned into trespassing is seriously flawed. I'm not saying it's not possible to find a cop unreasonable enough to cite it, and a similarly unreasonable prosecutor to try someone under the circumstances. But I'd personally be more concerned with getting hit by lightning. If they catch you breaking their rules, tell you to leave and you refuse at that point your asking for an actual trespass issue in my opinion. I'm not advocating signing a contract knowing you're going to violate it, I'm just trying to provide clarity about the outcome of that.

[ellensburgpo]

If you don't like the rules don't buy their pass.

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  Seems that simple