bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls

[wooltie]

Just a guess, but I'm leaning a more and more towards the stock.  Something I'm kind of going through, and noticed a number of other sites discussing as well.  Bell and Carlson stocks have a little bit of flex in them (more than many shooters like), especially the further out on the fore end.  You can usually grab the barrel and the fore end and apply different pressure and see the stock deflecting--with the more solid stocks (wood included) it is usually just the barrel springing over.  The softer composites transfer the flex down to the bedding blocks and action, so even the free floated barrels get affected.  Just have to put the gun in the rests exactly the same way for each shot.  A half inch further forward or back flexes the stock enough to change the point of impact.  May or may not be the issue, but might explore.

I agree 100% with the flex in a bell and Carlson stock. I have a .223 that will shoot 1/2" groups at 100 yards off sand bags but if I use my bipod my groups can open up to over an inch. I grabbed the butt of my rifle that was resting on the bipod on a shooting bench and twisted it left to right and was surprised how much it moved. When I was shooting it off of the bipod I would get on target then move the butt of the rifle around
to get perfect before the shot, that was torquing my stock and giving me poor performance. This is a bell and Carlson medalist stock. I'm not saying you can't shoot effectively off of a bipod just that there are variables. My hunting rifle is a .280 and has a much stiffer stock, I know this because I tried the same thing with it and found no twist. I shoot my .280 from a bipod free recoil 1" or less at 100yrds. That being said it sounds like you're shooting off of a stand so that isn't an issue. Recoil would have nothing to do with your groupings other than flinching at trigger pull anticipating recoil. Since your shooting off a stand recoil shouldn't be an issue. I agree with a previous post of shooting free recoil and like he said be aware of proper technique or you'll get bit by the scope. I only shoot free recoil when developing loads or sighting in a rifle because my rifle jumps all over the place during the shot, not good practice in a hunting situation but I've never needed a quick follow up shot while sighting in a rifle. Your rifle if properly bedded will never shoot better than sitting on a stand with nothing touching the barrel or torquing the stock. The only thing we can do is make it worse by touching it you can't make it better with your grip. If you've ever seen high speed slow motion footage of a bullet leaving the muzzle the bullet is way out of the picture before any muzzle jump happens. It doesn't matter if it is a pistol or high powered rifle. You might want to look at the crown of your barrel.

That's interesting.  Throws the whole 'managing recoil' thing out the window.  I'm using a medalist, torqued to 65 in lbs.  The barrel does not tough the stock.

When shooting free recoil, I would setup the gun on rests so that it was on the target, then shoulder/grip the stock.  Then take your hand off the grip just to check that shouldering/gripping didn't affect the point of aim. 

Here's a thought --

If the bullet exist the barrel before muzzle flip occurs, then why do some shooters improve their groups by placing their lead hand on the forend to basically add weight to the stock?

Not trying to argue w/you because what you are saying makes sense.

[bearpaw]

Have you ever used a good copper cleaner when cleaning your gun? If you have copper fouling you can clean your gun with regular solvents and it won't get it out, you have to use a copper cleaner. I had a gun that was shooting all over and it took a couple good copper scrubbings to clean it up, it shot a lot better afterward.

[KFhunter]

I have a big long break in with copper cleaner until everything gets smoothed up

[wooltie]

Have you ever used a good copper cleaner when cleaning your gun? If you have copper fouling you can clean your gun with regular solvents and it won't get it out, you have to use a copper cleaner. I had a gun that was shooting all over and it took a couple good copper scrubbings to clean it up, it shot a lot better afterward.

I have once with this rifle.

Today I used hoppes 9 for an hour, wet and dry until the wet and dry patches were clear.

Then I ran sweets through the barrel using a wad of 3 patches to form a tight fit.

The wad came out with medium blue lines on it from where the wad rode the lands.

Guess I gotta go back later and repeat the process with Sweets until the blue goes away, right?

[bearpaw]

Have you ever used a good copper cleaner when cleaning your gun? If you have copper fouling you can clean your gun with regular solvents and it won't get it out, you have to use a copper cleaner. I had a gun that was shooting all over and it took a couple good copper scrubbings to clean it up, it shot a lot better afterward.

I have once with this rifle.

Today I used hoppes 9 for an hour, wet and dry until the wet and dry patches were clear.

Then I ran sweets through the barrel using a wad of 3 patches to form a tight fit.

The wad came out with medium blue lines on it from where the wad rode the lands.

Guess I gotta go back later and repeat the process with Sweets until the blue goes away, right?

Yes, do it again until you get no blue/green color. Sweets is good, Hoppes is not really that good for getting out copper.

[KFhunter]

all your doing is adding copper on top of copper by not cleaning after every shot or two for the first 20 or so shots.   A well cut barrel with a sharp new die will clean up faster, but if you get a rougher barrel made with a die that's cut a few too many barrels before it was changed out.... it'll take longer.

[JDHasty]

Sweets & Bore Tech Copper Remover, are the two aggressive copper cleaners I use. Butch's Bore Shine or Shooters Choice if copper is not too built up, which on most of my rifles is the case always.

Now here is a trick, Quick Silver Top Engine Cleaner will get rid of the carbon that is built up between the layers of copper faster than anything I know of and make the process go faster if you have a gun that has never really been cleaned down to steel.

Once the blue is gone, you may have a layer of carbon that Sweets won't do much for.  You need to get that carbon out and then try Sweets again.  Then repeat until you are all the way down to the surface of the bore.   

I use a little JB too. 

My 300 Wby copper fouls w/the fourty year old Nosler Partitions I am still using.  It shoots about .7 inch groups when clean, but only for about five shots.   

[Magnum_Willys]

The Boretech stuff is nice - no smell.  I use the Boretech eliminator for day to day cleaning and their Copper Remover for stubborn stuff.  5 wet patches,  then 10 back and forth strokes with a wet nylon brush, 5 more wet patches and 5 dry patches.   Takes about 5 mins.  Could use less if waited 20 mins to let wet patches go to work.  Shoot a fowler off first thing before shooting for target. 

[wooltie]

Update--

To date I have never removed copper fouling from the bore more than once, and that one time involved just using a few wet patches.  So, I bought a nylon brush and scrubbed the bore over two separate sessions using Sweets.  I could feel the brush moving easier through the bore as the sessions went on, and at the end I saw next no blueness in both dry and wet patches.

Then to the range--

Groups improved, but still not where I want them.  I used my rear bag, front caldwell rest, and made sure that both rests were secure and the gun was positioned in the rests exactly the same for each shot. 

So, I ordered and installed a Timney.  Turned down the Timeny a touch and we'll see if that affects my groups.  Also, the rifle weighs 8.5 lbs, so not exactly lighter like I originally thought.

[JDHasty]

Update--

To date I have never removed copper fouling from the bore more than once, and that one time involved just using a few wet patches.  So, I bought a nylon brush and scrubbed the bore over two separate sessions using Sweets.  I could feel the brush moving easier through the bore as the sessions went on, and at the end I saw next no blueness in both dry and wet patches.

Then to the range--

Groups improved, but still not where I want them.  I used my rear bag, front caldwell rest, and made sure that both rests were secure and the gun was positioned in the rests exactly the same for each shot. 

So, I ordered and installed a Timney.  Turned down the Timeny a touch and we'll see if that affects my groups.  Also, the rifle weighs 8.5 lbs, so not exactly lighter like I originally thought.

Now clean out a layer of carbon fouling that is protecting the next layer of copper that is underneath it and then go after the next layer of copper w/Sweets.  Repeat until you are all the way to bare steel. It is a lot of work. 

[wooltie]

Update--

To date I have never removed copper fouling from the bore more than once, and that one time involved just using a few wet patches.  So, I bought a nylon brush and scrubbed the bore over two separate sessions using Sweets.  I could feel the brush moving easier through the bore as the sessions went on, and at the end I saw next no blueness in both dry and wet patches.

Then to the range--

Groups improved, but still not where I want them.  I used my rear bag, front caldwell rest, and made sure that both rests were secure and the gun was positioned in the rests exactly the same for each shot. 

So, I ordered and installed a Timney.  Turned down the Timeny a touch and we'll see if that affects my groups.  Also, the rifle weighs 8.5 lbs, so not exactly lighter like I originally thought.

Now clean out a layer of carbon fouling that is protecting the next layer of copper that is underneath it and then go after the next layer of copper w/Sweets.  Repeat until you are all the way to bare steel. It is a lot of work.

So I should repeat this process until I can no longer see any traces of copper near the muzzle end of the bore?

[JDHasty]

Update--

To date I have never removed copper fouling from the bore more than once, and that one time involved just using a few wet patches.  So, I bought a nylon brush and scrubbed the bore over two separate sessions using Sweets.  I could feel the brush moving easier through the bore as the sessions went on, and at the end I saw next no blueness in both dry and wet patches.

Then to the range--

Groups improved, but still not where I want them.  I used my rear bag, front caldwell rest, and made sure that both rests were secure and the gun was positioned in the rests exactly the same for each shot. 

So, I ordered and installed a Timney.  Turned down the Timeny a touch and we'll see if that affects my groups.  Also, the rifle weighs 8.5 lbs, so not exactly lighter like I originally thought.

Now clean out a layer of carbon fouling that is protecting the next layer of copper that is underneath it and then go after the next layer of copper w/Sweets.  Repeat until you are all the way to bare steel. It is a lot of work.

So I should repeat this process until I can no longer see any traces of copper near the muzzle end of the bore?

Yes, and to the untrained eye it will look clean while it is still not clean.  Some cleaners do a fairly good job on both carbon & copper, Shooter's Choice & Butche's Bore Shine are a couple examples and either will work to keep it clean once you get it clean.   It is a PITA to get a bore that has a buildup cleaned up.  You are using a good bore guide while going through this process.  Right? 

[wooltie]

Update--

To date I have never removed copper fouling from the bore more than once, and that one time involved just using a few wet patches.  So, I bought a nylon brush and scrubbed the bore over two separate sessions using Sweets.  I could feel the brush moving easier through the bore as the sessions went on, and at the end I saw next no blueness in both dry and wet patches.

Then to the range--

Groups improved, but still not where I want them.  I used my rear bag, front caldwell rest, and made sure that both rests were secure and the gun was positioned in the rests exactly the same for each shot. 

So, I ordered and installed a Timney.  Turned down the Timeny a touch and we'll see if that affects my groups.  Also, the rifle weighs 8.5 lbs, so not exactly lighter like I originally thought.

Now clean out a layer of carbon fouling that is protecting the next layer of copper that is underneath it and then go after the next layer of copper w/Sweets.  Repeat until you are all the way to bare steel. It is a lot of work.

So I should repeat this process until I can no longer see any traces of copper near the muzzle end of the bore?

Yes, and to the untrained eye it will look clean while it is still not clean.  Some cleaners do a fairly good job on both carbon & copper, Shooter's Choice & Butche's Bore Shine are a couple examples and either will work to keep it clean once you get it clean.   It is a PITA to get a bore that has a buildup cleaned up.  You are using a good bore guide while going through this process.  Right?

I am using one of those four piece rods with a T hand at the end.  I take my time and am not reckless when scrubbing to prevent the rod from touching the bore.  I insert at the chamber.

Yes, I can still see copper on the lands located at the muzzle.  There is less than when I first began this process, but some copper remains.  I'm using hoppes 9 bore solvent and sweet's copper solvent.

So, let me get this straight --  the idea is to remove the copper from the lands and prevent copper from building up on the lands? 

[JDHasty]

Update--

To date I have never removed copper fouling from the bore more than once, and that one time involved just using a few wet patches.  So, I bought a nylon brush and scrubbed the bore over two separate sessions using Sweets.  I could feel the brush moving easier through the bore as the sessions went on, and at the end I saw next no blueness in both dry and wet patches.

Then to the range--

Groups improved, but still not where I want them.  I used my rear bag, front caldwell rest, and made sure that both rests were secure and the gun was positioned in the rests exactly the same for each shot. 

So, I ordered and installed a Timney.  Turned down the Timeny a touch and we'll see if that affects my groups.  Also, the rifle weighs 8.5 lbs, so not exactly lighter like I originally thought.

Now clean out a layer of carbon fouling that is protecting the next layer of copper that is underneath it and then go after the next layer of copper w/Sweets.  Repeat until you are all the way to bare steel. It is a lot of work.

So I should repeat this process until I can no longer see any traces of copper near the muzzle end of the bore?

Yes, and to the untrained eye it will look clean while it is still not clean.  Some cleaners do a fairly good job on both carbon & copper, Shooter's Choice & Butche's Bore Shine are a couple examples and either will work to keep it clean once you get it clean.   It is a PITA to get a bore that has a buildup cleaned up.  You are using a good bore guide while going through this process.  Right?

I am using one of those four piece rods with a T hand at the end.  I take my time and am not reckless when scrubbing to prevent the rod from touching the bore.  I insert at the chamber.

Yes, I can still see copper on the lands located at the muzzle.  There is less than when I first began this process, but some copper remains.

I'm using hoppes 9 bore solvent and sweet's copper solvent.

OK stop right there.

Invest in - and it is an investment:

1) a good one piece cleaning rod - either stainless or a coated rod.
2) a bore guide

I think the Hoppes will be fine for removing the carbon

And yes the idea is to get the copper out and that means out of the grooves as well.  Then keep it clean.  This will be easier, or maybe even easy, if once it is clean you go through a break in procedure like used for a new barrel. 

[wooltie]

Update--

To date I have never removed copper fouling from the bore more than once, and that one time involved just using a few wet patches.  So, I bought a nylon brush and scrubbed the bore over two separate sessions using Sweets.  I could feel the brush moving easier through the bore as the sessions went on, and at the end I saw next no blueness in both dry and wet patches.

Then to the range--

Groups improved, but still not where I want them.  I used my rear bag, front caldwell rest, and made sure that both rests were secure and the gun was positioned in the rests exactly the same for each shot. 

So, I ordered and installed a Timney.  Turned down the Timeny a touch and we'll see if that affects my groups.  Also, the rifle weighs 8.5 lbs, so not exactly lighter like I originally thought.

Now clean out a layer of carbon fouling that is protecting the next layer of copper that is underneath it and then go after the next layer of copper w/Sweets.  Repeat until you are all the way to bare steel. It is a lot of work.

So I should repeat this process until I can no longer see any traces of copper near the muzzle end of the bore?

Yes, and to the untrained eye it will look clean while it is still not clean.  Some cleaners do a fairly good job on both carbon & copper, Shooter's Choice & Butche's Bore Shine are a couple examples and either will work to keep it clean once you get it clean.   It is a PITA to get a bore that has a buildup cleaned up.  You are using a good bore guide while going through this process.  Right?

I am using one of those four piece rods with a T hand at the end.  I take my time and am not reckless when scrubbing to prevent the rod from touching the bore.  I insert at the chamber.

Yes, I can still see copper on the lands located at the muzzle.  There is less than when I first began this process, but some copper remains.

I'm using hoppes 9 bore solvent and sweet's copper solvent.

OK stop right there.

Invest in - and it is an investment:

1) a good one piece cleaning rod - either stainless or a coated rod.
2) a bore guide

I think the Hoppes will be fine for removing the carbon

And yes the idea is to get the copper out and that means out of the grooves as well.  Then keep it clean.  This will be easier, or maybe even easy, if once it is clean you go through a break in procedure like used for a new barrel.

Thanks.  I'll do just that.  I see there are carbon fiber rods as well.