bench rest shooting techniques--help needed pls

[JDHasty]

I have spent hours w/my 300 Wby once when I shot it w/o cleaning it for about thirty shots.  I learned my lesson.

Should a barrel copper up after only a few shots?  I was surprised and also really pissed off when I saw all that bronze in the bore after only a few shots, and after hours of cleaning it the day before.

No.  But my 300 Wby does and it especially does with the old Partitions that I use.  However that rifle will shoot three - five shots out of a clean barrel into well under an inch group.  So I still like it just fine.  I don't know what it is about that rifle, I don't have any others that copper foul like that one does, but I treasure that barrel and hope to never have to replace it.

Thanks JD.  I had a .308 vanguard s2 once, which just about never copper'd up.  i mean, I don't recall seeing bronze in the barrel, ever.

I'll get this bore super clean, then return to the range and monitor the bore after each shot -- clean, take picture, shoot, clean, take picture, etc.  Just to see what the bore looks like.  Maybe that'll tell me something.

That sucks though if your shots open up considerably after only 3-5 shots.

I shoot big game with that rifle and it serves me well.  I take it over to the range every year and shoot two or three shots and go hunting.  It's basicly the same platform as my Model 70 SA Heavy Varmint in 243 that I shoot chucks with so I get lots and lots of practice with a model 70 every year w/o using the 300 barrel up.   

My buddy bought the same exact factory McMillan stocked model 70 Winlite 300 Wby back in about 1991 and proceed to go out prairie dog shooting with it.  Needless to say the throat was soon burned out and the barrel had to be replaced.   

[Bill W]

looks like this discussion has changed from "bench rest shooting techniques" to "bench rest CLEANING techniques".   Also another good bit of info.

If your gun is coppering up as much as it seems in the pictures you may need to polish out some rough edges.   You can either hand lap the barrel, firelap it which is easier but harder to control, or burnish out the barrel via the shoot one, clean, shoot one, clean.... method.   All three will get you there but firelapping also affects the throating area.

[JDHasty]

looks like this discussion has changed from "bench rest shooting techniques" to "bench rest CLEANING techniques".   Also another good bit of info.

If your gun is coppering up as much as it seems in the pictures you may need to polish out some rough edges.   You can either hand lap the barrel, firelap it which is easier but harder to control, or burnish out the barrel via the shoot one, clean, shoot one, clean.... method.   All three will get you there but firelapping also affects the throating area.

I would be highly reluctant to attempt to lap any barrel with anything more abrasive than JB.  It is far easier (exponentially so) to ruin a barrel by amateur lapping than to improve it in any way.  Lapping a barrel is a job best left to an experienced professional. 

[wooltie]

I intended to clean the bore until all the copper is gone.  The copper is going away, albeit slowly, but going away.  Just takes time.  Running wet patches of Sweets, then drying out and running solvent and brush seems to be working.

After, I will shoot one, clean one, picture; repeat to monitor what happens once I get the dang thing clean.  Then I'll evaluate.  I mean, if groups go south after 5-10 shots, then at least I know the limit and can stop chasing groups.

[Bill W]

I intended to clean the bore until all the copper is gone.  The copper is going away, albeit slowly, but going away.  Just takes time.  Running wet patches of Sweets, then drying out and running solvent and brush seems to be working.

After, I will shoot one, clean one, picture; repeat to monitor what happens once I get the dang thing clean.  Then I'll evaluate.  I mean, if groups go south after 5-10 shots, then at least I know the limit and can stop chasing groups.

I've shot score competition in the past and at one time shot a bunch of shots at a target just to note the POI.  With this one powder the shots hit in one group until about the 6th shot, then drop down to the center of the bullseye and after about the 22nd or so shot then drop down one bullet hole for each subsequent shot.    A good thing to know.

[wooltie]

Yeah, I mean initially I thought (and still may be the case) that something was wrong in my setup at the bench.  In the past, I've shot 1" groups all day using a .308, factory 150g, a sandbag front rest and a sandbag rear rest (this was what the public range provided.)

So, I got serious last year by buying better rests, focusing on consistent setup, setting up the rifle well (stock, trigger, torqued, good optics) and shooting more often just to practice.  I never thought this copper thing could be the issue, so we'll see what happens.  But I really appreciate everyone's input and being willing to help me out.

[Skyvalhunter]

I would try the spray in foam copper remover. Keep repeating it until the color of the cleaning rag patch is clean.

[JLS]

I would try the spray in foam copper remover. Keep repeating it until the color of the cleaning rag patch is clean.

Yep, you are making your job much harder than it needs to be. 

[wooltie]

Well here's a before and after.  This might be it, unless I keep at it to get the lands shiny -- dunno if that's even possible.  Butch's bore shine and a new bronze brush produced plenty of black patches with blue mixed in occasionally.

[JDHasty]

Wootie,

I make no guarantees as to the stupid thing ever shooting, but it will not with copper like that in the barrel.  In my experience. 

Get it clean and we will go from there. I have provided advice I am comfortable with, but however it is actually down to the raw barrel, once it is there I have a few suggestions and one may be that you have put a lot of effort into a bad barrel. 

But you will not know until it is actually clean. 

Just my  , for what that is worth, and it may have nothing to do with the fouling issue. 

I've  been to that fire and it sometimes becomes an issue of how much "good money you want to throw after bad."  And then sometimes it becomes a matter of pride and:  By God as my witness I will get this POS to shoot.  Just sell it and move on.  I've been there too.  It is a fully capable big game rifle and you have nothing to regret from selling it as such.    A varmint rifle... not so much. 

[Magnum_Willys]

Mine looks a lil like yours on the right after 20 rounds when its ready to be cleaned.   Wish I was close I'd like to hit it with a brush soaked with Bore Tech Copper Remover followed by a few dozen strokes of Isso just to see how stubborn that copper is.....

[wooltie]

Wootie,

I make no guarantees as to the stupid thing ever shooting, but it will not with copper like that in the barrel.  In my experience. 

Get it clean and we will go from there. I have provided advice I am comfortable with, but however it is actually down to the raw barrel, once it is there I have a few suggestions and one may be that you have put a lot of effort into a bad barrel. 

But you will not know until it is actually clean. 

Just my  , for what that is worth, and it may have nothing to do with the fouling issue. 

I've  been to that fire and it sometimes becomes an issue of how much "good money you want to throw after bad."  And then sometimes it becomes a matter of pride and:  By God as my witness I will get this POS to shoot.  Just sell it and move on.  I've been there too.  It is a fully capable big game rifle and you have nothing to regret from selling it as such.    A varmint rifle... not so much.

Oh I can keep working on it I just don't know the point where I'd say it's clean. I mean should the lands be shiny with bright reflection?  If so then I'll keep at it until it's there.

If it gets to that clean point and still fails to perform for me and others, then it's time to swap barrels or something.

[Bill W]

I once worked on a rifle that even Cloward couldn't make shoot.  After a while I learned I couldn't either.   I think the owner sold it after that point.

[wooltie]

Mine looks a lil like yours on the right after 20 rounds when its ready to be cleaned.   Wish I was close I'd like to hit it with a brush soaked with Bore Tech Copper Remover followed by a few dozen strokes of Isso just to see how stubborn that copper is.....

I'll probably pick up some of that remover.  I spent a few hours tonight using Hoppes 9 and a bronze brush.  Still seeing a lot of wet, black patches after 20 strokes w/the brush.  The lands are looking better in that I can see some silver on them instead of brown.

Do you ever get your lands to return silver once your rifles are clean?

[JDHasty]

Mine looks a lil like yours on the right after 20 rounds when its ready to be cleaned.   Wish I was close I'd like to hit it with a brush soaked with Bore Tech Copper Remover followed by a few dozen strokes of Isso just to see how stubborn that copper is.....

I'll probably pick up some of that remover.  I spent a few hours tonight using Hoppes 9 and a bronze brush.  Still seeing a lot of wet, black patches after 20 strokes w/the brush.  The lands are looking better in that I can see some silver on them instead of brown.

Do you ever get your lands to return silver once your rifles are clean?

That is the copper remover I am currently using and it is aggressive on copper and seems to be easy on barrels.  I have worked on guns belonging to others that took forever to get clean down to the bore and once clean they were bright and shiny.   On older guns that were used before non-corrosive ammo bores will frequently never get to a shiny state.  They look dark even though clean, but it is surprising how well a lot of dark bores have shot once clean.