Should 209 primers be legal?

[Sitka_Blacktail]

What I don't get is you choose a primitive weapon,to hunt with,then u wanna complain about it,something that was your own choice to begin with.I say go for it add 209 primers then go ahead and add scopes to muzzle loaders,then just add your season to modern firearm,cause keep complaining and that's what you might get .

It is not a primitive weapons season it is a short range weapon season!  Primitive ML's are not required.  The State makes requirements to limit the ability of the ML to a true short range rifle.

The State's rules for muzzleloaders have nothing to do with range. Has everything to do with using modern contrivances to make them more efficient or accurate.

[hunter399]

What I don't get is you choose a primitive weapon,to hunt with,then u wanna complain about it,something that was your own choice to begin with.I say go for it add 209 primers then go ahead and add scopes to muzzle loaders,then just add your season to modern firearm,cause keep complaining and that's what you might get .

It is not a primitive weapons season it is a short range weapon season!  Primitive ML's are not required.  The State makes requirements to limit the ability of the ML to a true short range rifle.

The State's rules for muzzleloaders have nothing to do with range. Has everything to do with using modern contrivances to make them more efficient or accurate.

I was thinking the same thing,you can shoot 200-250 yards with a peep or open site.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Not to mention dangerous hangfires that could wound animals and send bullets where they weren't intended. I remember reading a thread a while ago about a guy shooting the antler off his buck then killing it later with a hangfire. Luckily he didn't wound it

Hangfires are generally caused by damp powder that doesn't want to ignite, not your cap. This is caused by either getting water down your barrel or nipple, or more common in wet western Washington, from condensation. Powder is like salt, it draws moisture. Just like the salt in your salt shaker. Don't touch your muzzleloader off at the end of the day and leave the powder in and bring it into the warm house then take it out into the cold damp/wet air and it naturally forms water. The heated barrel adds to it. Also carrying your gun in the warm car and jumping out into the cold wet air many times a day does the same thing. Always touch your gun off at the end of the day and use fresh powder the next day.

[JimmyHoffa]

209 primers are legal to use as long as in the modern season.  Same as scopes.  We can grab a muzzleloader with scope and 209, or even two barrels capped and loaded and hunt with them.  That doesn't change.  It is the allowance of using the new tech in the muzzleloader only season where those things can't be used.

[Jonathan_S]

You may not call it weak. But those that have seen the advantages of 209 ignition systems sure call it weak.

Your state-game regulators field call all the time and many are complaints. Then when the complaints start sounding the same over & over & over, they begin to take surveys, begin to folder those same complaints - then begin to have meetings on those same complaints..

Then they begin to address how to fix those complaints. So what you have in Washington is irate hunters who want a better ignition system implemented.

If you like yours, then keep it. You obviously haven't been stung yet - meaning your ML hasn't failed to fire the powder, with an 8-pt buck standing 20 yards in front of you.

I hope your luck continues. But never tell those who were stung that their ignition source wasn't the problem - wasn't the reason why their gun didn't go bang.

If you do, then hopefully they don't punch you in the noggin for telling them it was their fault -- when in truth, it was the State Of Washington's fault for being behind the times.

The awesome thing that western States have that many Eastern states don’t have is bottle-necked cartridge seasons. Our ML seasons are not implemented forcefully because we are cramming dozens of hunters per square mile of farmland.

The biggest reason I’m agains it is because its easy to see what’s next...BH209, scopes, enclosed ignition systems etc. what’s the point? If somebody is dead set on using that then hunt the modern season, there is better dates anyway

I’ve had misfires yes but that doesn’t make it weak. Limitation sure.

[bearpaw]

Just saw this topic, I was too late to vote.

[Dan-o]

I say leave the rules alone. 

Enough technology creep has already occurred.

If you are careful and proficient, you can avoid misfires.   

[AWS]

First concerning archery season, archery season is archery season and the progression of improvements is just that a  progression of improvements, there is no president to the improvements.

Muzzle loader season was meant to be primitive season.  All the improvements to the muzzle loaded were made 100+ years ago and we call it modern deer season.  Muzzle loader season was meant for some hunters to experience harvesting game with the weapons of our early forefathers.  All the improvements we are adding to the mix is just dumbing down the season so it is easier for more to be successful.  If we keep adding improvements we will be very close to being just a Single Shot Modern season and we might as well just allow Ruger #1's, H&R Toppers and Browning Highwalls.

[Special T]

Yes!

If you hunt muzzy and don't like 209 then don't use them.

If you don't hunt muzzy then why do you care what I use? If it makes it more "modern" then stop rifle hunting and switch to muzzy.

I don't archery hunt, but why would I vote no to lighted knocks and expandable broad heads? If you want to use them then go for it. If you don't then don't. Why would I care what you use as long as its not illegal?

This is the attitude that I wish was more prevalent.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Special T]

Before I went to Virginia in 2012 I would have voted no.  I voted yes.  I've never been to a state that pits it's user groups against each other like this state does.  Pretty sad really, pit each user group against each other and cram everyone into certain GMUs, so more over crowding goes on.  Amazing.

The WDFW manages people, and it is easier to do so when we are divided.

Most people don't realize this, but harvest numbers for deer are nearly the same now as back in the hay day when when had the most hunters.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[mallardaddict]

I will preface this by saying that I agree with many posters that this is a slippery slope.  That said I voted yes on 209’s for the following reason.

To date all of my muzzleloader hunting has been done with a .54 Hawken and Pyrodwx RS and most recently a .50 TC Black Diamond XR and T7.  I have never had issue with wet powder, hangfires or failure to ignite but I am sure it is coming.

I plan to buy a Knight UL and would like the option to run B209 powder just for the ease of cleaning and lack of a carbon ring. Unfortunately in my Black Diamond I have been unable to get reliable ignition of B209 with either musket caps of #11 magnum caps. B209 of course requires a 209 primer for reliable ignition.

I am not at all a proponent of scoped muzzleloaders, battery powered optics, fully sealed ignition systems or full smokeless ML’s etc. and for the most part enjoy the added difficulty of ML seasons. That said I just do not see how allowing 209 primers takes that away based on the “western” rules as currently set.

We already allow jacketed bullets and sabots as well as BP substitutes so why not allow a primer that helps with the ignition of already legal powders.

Like I said my desire is only to run B209 for its decreased fouling and ease of cleaning with common rifle solvents I already own this my desire to use a 209.

I also voted yes based on my moral compass. I personally have a hard time condoning someone else for using a particular item when legal strictly due to my own personal feelings on it. It’s somewhat alarming to me when a group of people with similar interests freely divide themselves over such small details as this is what gun grabbers want to see happen.

[Curly]

I wish they would roll back the rules and eliminate jacketed bullets.

Also wish they would make inlines illegal.

I've also long thought they should never allow 209's.

But with that said, what the hell........I really don't care anymore. 

I'm sure that in 10 years or so, sealed inlines will be allowed, smokeless powder will be allowed and eventually even scopes will be allowed.  It never ends.  The line keeps moving and people keep asking for more and more allowances.  I guess someday the season name will need to change from muzzleloader to simply single-shot. 

[Lead ball 54]

What he said!!!!!!!!

[hunter399]

I have found a few articals on this subject,a lot of you are saying you want reliable ignition ,but you are failing to mention that with a hoter primer will allow you to shoot longer ranges with more powders that like hot primers.so I'm kinda calling bs on the reliable ignition after reading most of this thread.here's the artical,more fps means less drop in my mind.

http://www.namlhunt.com/mlprimers.html

This is also new muzzleloader that just came out ,and can be coverted to 209 primers.I know this does not have ignition exposed.but I bet most of you guys wish you could use it.

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2014/4/29/remingtons-300-yard-muzzleloader/

This is no direspect but you will get more bang for your buck, long range with better ignition.Just like any rifle primers.
So I still say no 209 .

[Sabotloader]

I have found a few articals on this subject,a lot of you are saying you want reliable ignition ,but you are failing to mention that with a hoter primer will allow you to shoot longer ranges with more powders that like hot primers.so I'm kinda calling bs on the reliable ignition after reading most of this thread.here's the artical,more fps means less drop in my mind.

http://www.namlhunt.com/mlprimers.html

This is also new muzzleloader that just came out ,and can be coverted to 209 primers.I know this does not have ignition exposed.but I bet most of you guys wish you could use it.

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2014/4/29/remingtons-300-yard-muzzleloader/

This is no direspect but you will get more bang for your buck, long range with better ignition.Just like any rifle primers.
So I still say no 209 .

There really is only one ML sub powder that can not be ignited with a cap.  BH-209 is and does qualify for a ML sub - even though it is really a smokeless powder with Potassium and Sulphur added to allow it to be classified as a ML sub.  But even then if you are willing to do it you can duplex a load of BH and ignite it with a percussion cap in either an inline or a side hammer.

Three powders T7, Swiss, and Olde Eynsford are all very energetic and can be ignited with a cap.

Igniting any of these powders with a 209 primers does not significantly increase velocity of the projectile shot.

This is the results of one of the many tests that I have run... I shot the same load with several different 209 primers.  From the hottest Federal to the coolest Remington 209-4 (410 shotgun primer). Really there is/was not a significant difference in velocity..



Igniting the same load of T7 with a cap will give you nearly the same results.