Long Range Heavy Bullet Rifle Help?

[Encore 280]

What about GunWerks or are they all hype? They put the Huskimaw scopes on their long range rigs.I know nothing about them just thought I'd chime in.

[Biggerhammer]

I did some serious research into carbon fiber wrapped barrels. Made some calls to guy well in the "Know" when it comes to Firearms. Here are the facts and why I'm not purchasing one.

When they take the blank and turn it down as far as they do for the carbon wrap process they take allot of steel away. It can be argued that the carbon wrap process stiffens it up again.

WHY DO IT?

Now you take a stainless barrel of the same contour as a carbon wrapped barrel, the stainless barrel will be way stiffer than the carbon wrapped barrel.

Now you put a temperature gauge on the outside of both barrels and fire a 20 shot string through both. Sure the stainless barrel will heat up firston the surface because it conducts heat more efficiently.

The carbon barrel with a heat gauge on the outside of the barrel will take much longer for the carbon wrap o transfer heat to the outside due to its composition.

HERE'S THE CATCH!!!!!

While it may take longer for the heat to make it to the outside temperature gauge of the carbon fiber wrapped barrel, during that 20 shot string you are super HEATING the turned down barrel steel under the carbon. Way more so than a stainless barrel of the same contour as the carbon wrapped barrel.

Heat erodes a barrels throat, barrel life all depends on throat erosion! Period! No and's, if's, what's or But's. It's a fact jack!

Now here is the reality of it all. If you think it's cool, like the look of it. Then your good to go. If you think a carbon fiber barrel will outlast the same contour barrel in steel. Shot for shot when shooting longer stings or when it comes to heat your mistaken.

If your going to shoot a carbon wrapped barrel moderately and not heat that thinner turned down core barrel up, you are good to go.

Next question is:

What's the point of a carbon wrapped barrel if you can't shoot it high volume? Might as well go with a sporter contour standard stainless or CM barrel.

That's why these $800.00 to a $1000.00 carbon wrapped blanks people are getting spun up are going to crap after 200 rounds or so. You can't pound away with them without super heating the core steel and eroding the throat.

Shoot them sainly sure, and your good. Think you can shoot them a bunch and with long strings of sustained fire your sadly mistaken.

I personally watched a new carbon fiber barrel chambered in 25-06 AI get completely roasted/ shot out by a guy on a prairie dog town in two days in less than 400 rounds. Too many rounds , to quick on a thin barrel core. Sure it took a bit for that outside carbon to warm up but that steel core was smoking and the throat was gone!

[jrebel]

I did some serious research into carbon fiber wrapped barrels. Made some calls to guy well in the "Know" when it comes to Firearms. Here are the facts and why I'm not purchasing one.

When they take the blank and turn it down as far as they do for the carbon wrap process they take allot of steel away. It can be argued that the carbon wrap process stiffens it up again.

WHY DO IT?

Now you take a stainless barrel of the same contour as a carbon wrapped barrel, the stainless barrel will be way stiffer than the carbon wrapped barrel.

Now you put a temperature gauge on the outside of both barrels and fire a 20 shot string through both. Sure the stainless barrel will heat up firston the surface because it conducts heat more efficiently.

The carbon barrel with a heat gauge on the outside of the barrel will take much longer for the carbon wrap o transfer heat to the outside due to its composition.

HERE'S THE CATCH!!!!!

While it may take longer for the heat to make it to the outside temperature gauge of the carbon fiber wrapped barrel, during that 20 shot string you are super HEATING the turned down barrel steel under the carbon. Way more so than a stainless barrel of the same contour as the carbon wrapped barrel.

Heat erodes a barrels throat, barrel life all depends on throat erosion! Period! No and, it's, what's or But's. It's a fact jack!

Now here is the reality of it all. If you think it's cool, like the look of it. Then your good to go. If you think a carbon fiber barrel will outlast the same contour barrel in steel. Shot for shot when shooting longer stings or when it comes to heat your mistaken.

If your going to shoot a carbon wrapped barrel moderately and not heat that thinner turned down core barrel up, you are good to go.

Next question is:

What's the point of a carbon wrapped barrel if you can't shoot it high volume? Might as well go with a spotter contour standard stainless or CM barrel.

That why theses $800.00 to a $1000.00 carbon wrapped blanks people are getting spun up are going to crap after 200 rounds or so. You can't pound away with them without super beating the core steel and eroding the throat.

Shoot them sainly sure, and your good. Think you can shoot them a bunch and with long strings of sustained fire your sadly mistaken.

I personally watched a new carbon fiber barrel chambered in 25-06 AI get completely roasted/ shot out by a guy on a prairie dog town in two days in less than 400 rounds. Too many rounds , to quick on a thin barrel core. Sure it took a bit for that outside carbon to warm up but that steel core was smoking and the throat was gone!

Read a very similar post on rockslide....I believe....and have ruled out carbon.  The only pro to them is a little bit lighter set up.   If I want to hunt with a light rifle, I wlll carry my kimber mountain ascent.  Thanks for the write up. 

[KFhunter]

If I were biggerhammer I wouldn't buy one either, most folks who plunk down the $ for a semi custom only zero it, maybe a few more, and then check zero again (maybe) once a year.  that's it, most don't even do a 20 shot break in period.  With the carbon barrel they get a little bit less weight, a temperature stabilized barrel, and a lot of bling factor which is important to some people.

you were so concerned with the heat retention you didn't address a stabilized barrel going from an 80 degree truck cab to a 10 degree weather outside, the carbon will insulate the barrel both ways.  Who cares about the 20th shot when your filling an OIL tag.

and I didn't run off to a google search either   

[jrebel]

If I were biggerhammer I wouldn't buy one either, most folks who plunk down the $ for a semi custom only zero it, maybe a few more, and then check zero again (maybe) once a year.  that's it, most don't even do a 20 shot break in period.  With the carbon barrel they get a little bit less weight, a temperature stabilized barrel, and a lot of bling factor which is important to some people.

you were so concerned with the heat retention you didn't address a stabilized barrel going from an 80 degree truck cab to a 10 degree weather outside, the carbon will insulate the barrel both ways.  Who cares about the 20th shot when your filling an OIL tag.

and I didn't run off to a google search either

I agree with what you have to say.  I shoot a lot...well alot more than the average shooter.  For example....my 6.5 creedmoore which is a year old has 400-500 rounds down range in load developement and long range practice / learning.  The rifle I am building will likely be shot as much.  I do have some rifles that are lucky to average 20 rounds a year....my safe queens.  But my hunting rifles get a ton of range time....I refuse to be that guy....yeah we all know them....the one that can't hit the broad side of a barn when hunting. 

[Biggerhammer]

If I were biggerhammer I wouldn't buy one either, most folks who plunk down the $ for a semi custom only zero it, maybe a few more, and then check zero again (maybe) once a year.  that's it, most don't even do a 20 shot break in period.  With the carbon barrel they get a little bit less weight, a temperature stabilized barrel, and a lot of bling factor which is important to some people.

you were so concerned with the heat retention you didn't address a stabilized barrel going from an 80 degree truck cab to a 10 degree weather outside, the carbon will insulate the barrel both ways.  Who cares about the 20th shot when your filling an OIL tag.

and I didn't run off to a google search either

Exactly! People just need to understand the he facts on carbon fiber wrapped barrels! They aren't magic!

Every thread you read people keep mentioning how they dissipate heat quicker, that's false. People in turn think this is great I can shoot a bunch before my barrel heats up. In a hunting rig with standard use they are fine. The way I see it. Why have this monster wrapped barrel that weighs as much as a #3 sporter? What's the point. But I understand cool crap and the look of a rifle but I shoot my stuff a bunch. I may put 300-400 rounds through a rifle in a week.

I already have the back up barrel sitting on the bench for the barrel I'm  shooting.

Don't  worry about the "Google" thing it wasn't directed at you. We all know who the "Google" experts are.👍

 

[mountainman]

As KF said, there are some good benifets to a PROPERLY wrapped barrel. Weight is paramount when spending a week or more at high altitude. I allows one to hunt farther and higher for sure. Accuracy can be as good as the best non wrapped rifles. One special Christiansen would 1/2" pretty consistent at 300 yards. Now, something you may put several hundred rounds thru in a day, not a smart investment at all.

[b23]

I've done a good amount of digging/research on many different CF wrapped barrels and come to nearly the exact same conclusion that Biggerhammer has.  Now, Proof will largely disagree with a lot of these statements because they are of the opinion their CF barrels cool faster than an all steel barrel but IMO it's only because they have less steel that retains the heat so they also heat up faster too.

For me, I like the look of a Sendero size contour over a smaller contour, especially when you're using a muzzle brake.  To me, they just look better when the brake matches the countour of the barrel and if you can do it and lose a couple pounds out of the rifle, even better. 

I can even live with CF wrapped barrels costing twice as much.  I could probably even be ok with them possibly not lasting as long.  BUT, what I can't live with is that they all seem to have a greater POI shift than an all steel barrel as they get some heat in them and even though I really like how they look, that POI shift thing is a deal breaker for me.

I believe Travis w/RBros has hung a few Proof barrels, maybe he will see this and share some of his personnel experiences with CR wrapped barrels.  I know Shawn w/Defensive Edge Rifles gave one a go some time back and it didn't turn out as well as he'd hoped but he was trying to be optimistic about them and I believe he has a couple builds he's giving them another try on.

[Duckslayer89]

Another reason to go carbon is a full size brake I was also told by a smith. I didn't on my build but that's a reason.

[Biggerhammer]

Another reason to go carbon is a full size brake I was also told by a smith. I didn't on my build but that's a reason.

A full size brake. You can put a brake on anything?

Besides, brakes are for sissy's!

[Duckslayer89]

Another reason to go carbon is a full size brake I was also told by a smith. I didn't on my build but that's a reason.

A full size brake. You can put a brake on anything?

Besides, brakes are for sissy's!

Lol that pic is great with the skirt. I'm not sure that's just what Travis at Rbros told me when I asked the benefits of carbon fiber

[Biggerhammer]

I'm sure if you throw 5K down, Travis will take care of you.😉

[MichaelJ]

You're painting carbon barrels with entirely too big a brush.  While I agree with your sentiments for the way other companies wrap carbon fiber around their blanks, a lot of what you say simply doesn't apply to my carbons.  I'll address each one of your points below.  I don't do this to be confrontational, but mainly to educate and dispell some of the myths regarding carbon fiber.

I did some serious research into carbon fiber wrapped barrels. Made some calls to guy well in the "Know" when it comes to Firearms. Here are the facts and why I'm not purchasing one.

When they take the blank and turn it down as far as they do for the carbon wrap process they take allot of steel away. It can be argued that the carbon wrap process stiffens it up again.
It does, there's no doubt about it.  I did a rigidity test by hanging a 25 oz weight off the end of my various carbon barrel contours and here's what I found.
One of my UNWRAPPED 7mm barrel cores with a muzzle od of .650" (steel wall thickness of .183") deflected .028" when the weight was hung.  That same barrel, wrapped to a light sendero contour (.083" carbon thickness added per side) deflected .014".  Adding nearly 50% of the volume of the steel doubled the stiffness of the barrel. 

WHY DO IT?

Now you take a stainless barrel of the same contour as a carbon wrapped barrel, the stainless barrel will be way stiffer than the carbon wrapped barrel.
While steel by VOLUME is stiffer, CF by weight has the upper hand.  Your statement still rings true, though the same steel barrel will be much heavier.  Benchmark lists their sendero contour as 4.6 lbs.  My Senderos are anywhere from 3.1-3.5 lbs.  See my response above, I'm able to double rigidity with less CF added by volume


Now you put a temperature gauge on the outside of both barrels and fire a 20 shot string through both. Sure the stainless barrel will heat up firston the surface because it conducts heat more efficiently.
If you are comparing resin saturated CF barrels to steel barrels, then yes I agree.  However not all carbons are created equal.  Carbon fiber as a pure material actually is a FANTASTIC conductor.  However the resins used in carbon fiber are the OPPOSITE.  So the more resin you have, the more your barrel is going to trap heat.   PROOF barrels are filament wound, they have a minimum 60% resin ratio and their fiber is oriented in a helical pattern around the barrel.  As opposed to my barrels which have PARALLEL fiber orientation (IE: adds the most rigidity possible to the bore), and I'm running under 35% resin ratio.  This means I have more fiber for stiffness, better fiber orientation for stiffness, and LESS resin to trap heat.  You shoot one of my barrels and the fiber in front of the steel tennon will be hotter to the touch than the steel tennon.  That is fact and there are multiple people on here that can vouch for that.
Feel free to call Eric Goss at Axisworks in AZ who's changed entirely from Proof barrels to mine because they dissipate heat twice as fast, and that's in AZ heat.

The carbon barrel with a heat gauge on the outside of the barrel will take much longer for the carbon wrap o transfer heat to the outside due to its composition.

HERE'S THE CATCH!!!!!

While it may take longer for the heat to make it to the outside temperature gauge of the carbon fiber wrapped barrel, during that 20 shot string you are super HEATING the turned down barrel steel under the carbon. Way more so than a stainless barrel of the same contour as the carbon wrapped barrel.
Again, all depends on fiber orientation and resin ratios.  See above

Heat erodes a barrels throat, barrel life all depends on throat erosion! Period! No and's, if's, what's or But's. It's a fact jack!
No arguments there

Now here is the reality of it all. If you think it's cool, like the look of it. Then your good to go. If you think a carbon fiber barrel will outlast the same contour barrel in steel. Shot for shot when shooting longer stings or when it comes to heat your mistaken.
I disagree for reasons above.  While I don't necessarily think that carbon will extend the life of a barrel, (unlike Christensen who claims they're barrels dissipate heat 25% faster than steel, so they get 25% better barrel life.  That's a joke, it's clearly not a 1:1 static relalationship between percentage points of heat dissipation and barrel life.

If your going to shoot a carbon wrapped barrel moderately and not heat that thinner turned down core barrel up, you are good to go.

Next question is:

What's the point of a carbon wrapped barrel if you can't shoot it high volume? Might as well go with a sporter contour standard stainless or CM barrel.
With the right CF barrel you can, I've multiple customers who run 10-20 shot strings on their rifles and they don't open up.  One thing people don't realize about CF is it nearly never expands/contracts with temperature fluctuations.  Combined with a good cooling barrel, they have clear benefits.

That's why these $800.00 to a $1000.00 carbon wrapped blanks people are getting spun up are going to crap after 200 rounds or so. You can't pound away with them without super heating the core steel and eroding the throat.

Shoot them sainly sure, and your good. Think you can shoot them a bunch and with long strings of sustained fire your sadly mistaken.

I personally watched a new carbon fiber barrel chambered in 25-06 AI get completely roasted/ shot out by a guy on a prairie dog town in two days in less than 400 rounds. Too many rounds , to quick on a thin barrel core. Sure it took a bit for that outside carbon to warm up but that steel core was smoking and the throat was gone!
Not surprised in the least for traditionally or better known CF wrapped barrels.

Here's a quick google search result to support my findings.  https://www.christinedemerchant.com/carbon_characteristics_heat_conductivity.html
A quote from that link when asked if CF is a good heat conductor:
"As usual the answer is "it depends." The short answer is NO not when regular carbon fiber is made up in regular epoxy and expected to conduct heat across the thickness. IF a highly carbonized pan fiber with graphite or diamond added, is measured for heat transmission in the length of the fiber it is very good and can rival and exceed copper."

Look at the various values for heat conductivity and density of various materials listed on that link.  "Carbon Fiber in Resin" has a conductivity value of 5-7 "in plane" and ".5-.8" in transverse.  That's why helically wound CF barrels trap heat so terribly.  However carbon fiber as a pure material has a conductive value ranging from 21-180... Aluminum has a value of 210 for reference... That's pretty good and it all comes back to fiber orientation, and resin content.  Because my fibers are oriented parallel with the bore, and I run a full sized steel tennon, heat gets pulled along the length of those fibers towards the muzzle, away from the throat.  Heat DISSIPATES to colder areas.  That is fact.

Here are some rough numbers for another stiffness test:
When comparing a 4 lbs 1 oz 6.5mm "MTU" contour barrel to a 3 lbs 11.4 oz 6.5mm "Sendero" contour barrel, the MTU deflected .0045" and the sendero deflected .009".  That's double the stiffness for an added 5.6 oz.  Think of my carbon fiber like down in a sleeping bag.  A few oz of overfill does wonders for the effectiveness.  Same with CF, a few oz of fiber does wonders for rigidity.

If anybody has any questions, feel free to ask.

Mike

[Biggerhammer]

Their not "YOUR" Carbin's, you spin them . The brush wasn't too broad it was spot on. I understand your position, it $$$ . I'm in business for myself. The bottom line is the bottom line. Which is $$$$$. Spin them up, sell them. Just don't over rate them.👍

[MichaelJ]

Their not "YOUR" carbons.

BS.  Are Rbros "Rogue" actions "their" actions?  Same thing here.

That's a ridiculous response... 

Mike