Bears Are Bigger Killers Than [some] Thought

[Bushcraft]

Those of us that were fortunate to have mentors in our lives to pass on their first-hand knowledge of the outdoors, knew and have always known that bears can adversely impact our wildlife.  In our post-modern arena of so-called peer reviewed scientific studies, some of the academic geniuses appear to finally be catching on (or at least they can’t readily dismiss or deny it any longer).

With increased pressure, the pendulum will swing further towards the realm of Common Sense and good biologists will once again replace good for nothing agenda driven hacks in our fish & wildlife agencies.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/03/bears-are-bigger-killers-thought-gruesome-video-footage-reveals

Cameras have been affixed to prey animals (ungulates) in recent studies in Northeast Washington.  But, that approach only serves to answer a portion of the predator/prey question.  We should demand that WDFW replicate a similar course of study throughout Washington and expand the use of cameras to all major predator species (grizzly and black bears, wolves, cougars, coyotes, etc.)

Regards,

Allen

[Stein]

Interesting study, glad to see good research is getting quality data that can be used for more effective wildlife management.

That said, be careful what you ask for.  This flip side of this study is that if you want to save X calves per year in an area, you only have to remove 1/2 to 1/4 of the bears we previously thought.

[Cougartail]

That said, be careful what you ask for.  This flip side of this study is that if you want to save X calves per year in an area, you only have to remove 1/2 to 1/4 of the bears we previously thought.

Highly unlikely..  If you had cameras everywhere in the state during calving season you would find coyote and bear numbers need to be reduced drastically. Back in the 80's I rarely saw Bear/Cougar tracks anywhere. Now I see them everywhere. Coyote tracks were common but nothing like they are now in some places.

Being a trapper I have always looked for tracks and still do.

[bigmacc]

In all my years of being in the woods and mountains as a hunter, hiker and fisherman I have personally witnessed 3 separate bear kills in person, they are ferocious killing machines on our ungulates.  Two were in spring time, one was in the fall. The first was in the Methow in spring time about 8 years ago, I was spring scouting some staging areas and noticed a commotion coming out of a thicket about 40 yards to the right of me. I had my Lab with me and a holstered 357 on my side. My dog stopped suddenly and sat next to me with the hair on his back standing straight up, out of the thicket came the bear with a (what looked like) yearling deer, still struggling and still alive, the bear was huge(I would guess around 250 to 275lbs.) and drug and shook the deer like it was a rag doll. The bear spotted us, stood up, went back down on all fours, grabbed the deer and took off into the brush going away from us, we turned and went out the way we came! The second was on a trip to Yellowstone a couple years ago when we rounded a corner in our truck and came upon a ranger with his flashers on and red lights on pulled over on the side of the road, there were about 4 other vehicles(sightseers) pulled over also. We pulled over and looked in the direction everyone was looking and about 60 to 70 yards off the road was a small herd of cow elk all stomping their feet and looking into a brushy area, the elk did not care less about all the cars and people on the road which was growing by the minute. I walked to the ranger and asked what was going on and about that time I heard oohs, aw,s and gasps as I looked and seen a HUGE grizzly stand up with a calf elk in its mouth with two cubs! the bear dropped the calf(which looked to be hours old) and the cubs were all over it. The last one was in the Methow a few years ago, I was pre hunt scouting(late august) when I spotted a small group of 4 does on a ridge about 100 yard away. They were all standing with ears forward looking into a thicket about 20 yards up the ridge from them, like the elk in Yellowstone, they could care less about my partner and I. We put the glasses on them and also on the thicket when out the other side came a big cinnamon bear with a fawn hanging out its mouth. It lumbered up the ridge and dropped over the side.

[Skyvalhunter]

Was the good old days when deer were more prevalent in the Methow.

[bigmacc]

That said, be careful what you ask for.  This flip side of this study is that if you want to save X calves per year in an area, you only have to remove 1/2 to 1/4 of the bears we previously thought.

Highly unlikely..  If you had cameras everywhere in the state during calving season you would find coyote and bear numbers need to be reduced drastically. Back in the 80's I rarely saw Bear/Cougar tracks anywhere. Now I see them everywhere. Coyote tracks were common but nothing like they are now in some places.

Being a trapper I have always looked for tracks and still do.

I totally agree, 20 years ago and more it was a rarity to see bear, yotes and cougar, now they are all over....release the hounds!

[SpurInSpokane]

That said, be careful what you ask for.  This flip side of this study is that if you want to save X calves per year in an area, you only have to remove 1/2 to 1/4 of the bears we previously thought.

Highly unlikely..  If you had cameras everywhere in the state during calving season you would find coyote and bear numbers need to be reduced drastically. Back in the 80's I rarely saw Bear/Cougar tracks anywhere. Now I see them everywhere. Coyote tracks were common but nothing like they are now in some places.

Being a trapper I have always looked for tracks and still do.

The point Stein was trying to make (I believe) is that if a single bear is killing 2-4 times more fawns/calves than we thought, fewer individuals need to be removed to bring the depredations back down.

This study has been floating around for a while. I think an idea that hasn't been explored as far as season-setting goes is targeting bear seasons more towards spring, when calves/fawns are dropping. Reducing numbers at that critical time is likely to have a bigger survival impact than reducing numbers in the fall.

[bigmacc]

Was the good old days when deer were more prevalent in the Methow.

The good ole days of the Methow was prior to the ban on hound hunting as you well know, lots of deer and it was actually kind of cool if you seen a "predator" because it was so rare, heck during the 60,s 70,s 80.s and early 90.s I myself seen 4 bears in the Methow and 2 cougars, in the last 20 I have seen over 20 bears and 14 cougars and if yotes still had a 30-50 dollar bounty like they used to, I would be a thousandair

[Skyvalhunter]

I hear that is was nothing to go out in a Sept evening and herds of deer 20 + animals. I also don't take much belief that the area can't sustain those numbers. But then I don't have a book wildlife management degree.

[bigmacc]

That said, be careful what you ask for.  This flip side of this study is that if you want to save X calves per year in an area, you only have to remove 1/2 to 1/4 of the bears we previously thought.

Highly unlikely..  If you had cameras everywhere in the state during calving season you would find coyote and bear numbers need to be reduced drastically. Back in the 80's I rarely saw Bear/Cougar tracks anywhere. Now I see them everywhere. Coyote tracks were common but nothing like they are now in some places.

Being a trapper I have always looked for tracks and still do.

The point Stein was trying to make (I believe) is that if a single bear is killing 2-4 times more fawns/calves than we thought, fewer individuals need to be removed to bring the depredations back down.

This study has been floating around for a while. I think an idea that hasn't been explored as far as season-setting goes is targeting bear seasons more towards spring, when calves/fawns are dropping. Reducing numbers at that critical time is likely to have a bigger survival impact than reducing numbers in the fall.

When I was talking to the ranger in Yellowstone a few years ago he said spring time is a virtual "buffet time" for bears, they are hungry after hibernation and the females may have young with them they are teaching to survive. Deer, elk and moose are dropping there young at this time and its game on for a killing/feeding frenzy. I believe(at least in the Methow) the explosion of bears in the valley is a HUGE factor in the herds decline along with population uptick with cats and yotes. Bears and yotes are getting them out of the womb and wolves and cats are eventually getting the ones that survive.

[nwwanderer]

I have watched them hunt calves and fawns, relentless

[PlateauNDN]

I watched a few documentaries on Yellowstone and bears and that's what they discussed/showed, bears targeting calves, but they called it minimal impact and a minimal diet that didn't affect the herds.

[Dan-o]

I watched a few documentaries on Yellowstone and bears and that's what they discussed/showed, bears targeting calves, but they called it minimal impact and a minimal diet that didn't affect the herds.

I saw a really interesting documentary on the fall of the yellowstone herd where some long time Yellowstone biologists were putting forth a theory that wolves weren't so much to blame for the elk decline as many people think. 

They traced back a few decades when yellowstone Lake had an amazingly robust Brook trout population and the bears would gorge on spawning brook trout. 

Them$ someone illegally dumped lake trout in there. 

Fast forward to now and streans that used to overflow with Brook trout are now empty. The lake Trout flat wiped them out.   And Lake trout spawn in the lake. 

These guys had been in Yellowstone a loing time and pointed to places that griz would always come to gorge on trout.   But there are none. 

They said that Griizz have a finite home range and $any switched to elk calves.   So even the same number of griz now kill a ton more elk. 

Io don't know, but they made a compelling argument. 

[bigmacc]

I watched a few documentaries on Yellowstone and bears and that's what they discussed/showed, bears targeting calves, but they called it minimal impact and a minimal diet that didn't affect the herds.

I saw a really interesting documentary on the fall of the yellowstone herd where some long time Yellowstone biologists were putting forth a theory that wolves weren't so much to blame for the elk decline as many people think. 

They traced back a few decades when yellowstone Lake had an amazingly robust Brook trout population and the bears would gorge on spawning brook trout. 

Them$ someone illegally dumped lake trout in there. 

Fast forward to now and streans that used to overflow with Brook trout are now empty. The lake Trout flat wiped them out.   And Lake trout spawn in the lake. 

These guys had been in Yellowstone a loing time and pointed to places that griz would always come to gorge on trout.   But there are none. 

They said that Griizz have a finite home range and $any switched to elk calves.   So even the same number of griz now kill a ton more elk. 

Io don't know, but they made a compelling argument.

Yes Dan-o, thats right. When we were there in the spring we did some fishing  at Yellowstone lake they had no limit on lake trout, the person at the lodge basically said what you had heard, someone had dumped lake trout in the system, they are hardy eaters(even canibilistic if I remember right ) and took a huge toll on native species. They said the bears(needing protein) started to go after other sources like fawns, calves etc. more than they have in the past. They told us predation on park animals by bears was up because of the fish problem, this was 3 years ago  

[PlateauNDN]

I watched a few documentaries on Yellowstone and bears and that's what they discussed/showed, bears targeting calves, but they called it minimal impact and a minimal diet that didn't affect the herds.

I saw a really interesting documentary on the fall of the yellowstone herd where some long time Yellowstone biologists were putting forth a theory that wolves weren't so much to blame for the elk decline as many people think. 

They traced back a few decades when yellowstone Lake had an amazingly robust Brook trout population and the bears would gorge on spawning brook trout. 

Them$ someone illegally dumped lake trout in there. 

Fast forward to now and streans that used to overflow with Brook trout are now empty. The lake Trout flat wiped them out.   And Lake trout spawn in the lake. 

These guys had been in Yellowstone a loing time and pointed to places that griz would always come to gorge on trout.   But there are none. 

They said that Griizz have a finite home range and $any switched to elk calves.   So even the same number of griz now kill a ton more elk. 

Io don't know, but they made a compelling argument.

Yes Dan-o, thats right. When we were there in the spring we did some fishing  at Yellowstone lake they had no limit on lake trout, the person at the lodge basically said what you had heard, someone had dumped lake trout in the system, they are hardy eaters(even canibilistic if I remember right ) and took a huge toll on native species. They said the bears(needing protein) started to go after other sources like fawns, calves etc. more than they have in the past. They told us predation on park animals by bears was up because of the fish problem, this was 3 years ago  

Nope, wolves......you guys are getting off topic here and presenting a theory though logical, not the issue here. Put the kool aid down and step away from the Hillary posters.

[bigmacc]

Lump these issues in with the wolf  and you see why you don't see nearly the elk, moose and deer you used to see. I,ve been there5 times going back to 1977 and the amount of elk, moose and deer we seen then compared to what we seen 3 years ago would shock you. As far as bears and wolves, exactly the opposite, until 3 years ago we had seen 4 bear in the park on the previous trips(total), 3 years ago we seen 6 black bears(7 cubs), 5 grizzly (4cubs), and a pack of wolves(12 that we counted). We never did see a deer, not one, we seen around 50 or so elk, no moose but a lot of buffalo. Our first trip back in 77 and onto the 80,s we seen some of the biggest mule deer I,ve ever seen, probably 20 or so moose and more elk than I could even count. Makes you wonder, why the push and protection of all these predators...

[bigmacc]

I watched a few documentaries on Yellowstone and bears and that's what they discussed/showed, bears targeting calves, but they called it minimal impact and a minimal diet that didn't affect the herds.

I saw a really interesting documentary on the fall of the yellowstone herd where some long time Yellowstone biologists were putting forth a theory that wolves weren't so much to blame for the elk decline as many people think. 

They traced back a few decades when yellowstone Lake had an amazingly robust Brook trout population and the bears would gorge on spawning brook trout. 

Them$ someone illegally dumped lake trout in there. 

Fast forward to now and streans that used to overflow with Brook trout are now empty. The lake Trout flat wiped them out.   And Lake trout spawn in the lake. 

These guys had been in Yellowstone a loing time and pointed to places that griz would always come to gorge on trout.   But there are none. 

They said that Griizz have a finite home range and $any switched to elk calves.   So even the same number of griz now kill a ton more elk. 

Io don't know, but they made a compelling argument.

Yes Dan-o, thats right. When we were there in the spring we did some fishing  at Yellowstone lake they had no limit on lake trout, the person at the lodge basically said what you had heard, someone had dumped lake trout in the system, they are hardy eaters(even canibilistic if I remember right ) and took a huge toll on native species. They said the bears(needing protein) started to go after other sources like fawns, calves etc. more than they have in the past. They told us predation on park animals by bears was up because of the fish problem, this was 3 years ago  

Nope, wolves......you guys are getting off topic here and presenting a theory though logical, not the issue here. Put the kool aid down and step away from the Hillary posters.

 

[Dan-o]

 


Oooops. Wrong thred.   

 

[PlateauNDN]

Thread*

  ha!! Beat you jackelope.