Newbie reloading question

[wooltie]

Well then there's that whole idea about seating a bullet long e.g. closer to the lands to allow for a higher powder charge / velocity with less pressure.  I'm referring to the Berger articles.

I think, like people here have said, you have to watch for the pressure signs but also check your velocity to correlate pressure.  I'm still problem solving this too.  Gets frustrating at times.

Earlier this week I shot a load that grouped well (for four shots at least) and was running at 2800 FPS, which is near the top of book max.  So I loaded up ten rounds and went to the range yesterday to further confirm the group.  The results were frustrating--would group at all.  So I used the chrono for the last five rounds and, while the extreme spread was only 16 fps, these five rounds were traveling 75-90 fps faster, which put the velocity higher than book. 

[Curly]

Well then there's that whole idea about seating a bullet long e.g. closer to the lands to allow for a higher powder charge / velocity with less pressure.  I'm referring to the Berger articles.

I think, like people here have said, you have to watch for the pressure signs but also check your velocity to correlate pressure.  I'm still problem solving this too.  Gets frustrating at times.

Earlier this week I shot a load that grouped well (for four shots at least) and was running at 2800 FPS, which is near the top of book max.  So I loaded up ten rounds and went to the range yesterday to further confirm the group.  The results were frustrating--would group at all.  So I used the chrono for the last five rounds and, while the extreme spread was only 16 fps, these five rounds were traveling 75-90 fps faster, which put the velocity higher than book.

Yesterday was pretty warm out too......over 80 degrees here.  That could explain higher velocity yesterday and change in your groups.

[h20hunter]

I think of reloading as a process of learning and growth.  Get the basics down, go by the book, learn. Okay you did that and now can safely play around on the margins. Okay, you did that now you are back to the basics because they work.  Later on maybe you start playing with wildcats and the like but lets face it, especially for intro level loading.....the published data is there for a reason and with so many good powders, great bullets, and nice brass why bother with getting that 50 fps more and pushing it. Again, newbie loading which I put myself in that category.....why push it.

[jasnt]

The main reason to push for that little extra speed is to stretch the super sonic range. For hunting loads speed isn’t near as important and that extra 50fps isn’t going to help much.

[Jolten]

Is there a certain brand of chronograph I should be looking for? Seems like there's a lot more options than I anticipated.

[Magnum_Willys]

Is there a certain brand of chronograph I should be looking for? Seems like there's a lot more options than I anticipated.

2 Choices - Magneto Speed very accurate attaches to your barrel.  $179.   Or new Labradar - accurate sits on your bench.  $599 ( ouch) 

Only problem with magneto speed is it can and will effect shots due to its tuning effect on barrel - especially if it slips around.  But works fine up to the very last little tweaks when you might want to remove it.

The LabRadar is great but pricey.

[Magnum_Willys]

with so many good powders, great bullets, and nice brass why bother with getting that 50 fps more and pushing it.

This is good advice - shouldn't ignore it - I do but shouldn't. 

[wooltie]

Not to thread highjack, but as a newbie reloader I've been wondering this--

Is it obvious when a particular brass, powder, primer, bullet and charge weight isn't working with your rifle?

Suppose you shoot and chrono a ladder, spread over 2 grains in 0.3g increments e.g. 50-52 or 54-56.  And you see a flat spot in velocity among three charge weights based upon the chrono data.  So you repeat the test around those charges, perhaps several times, to confirm that velocities are relatively stable around those charges.  Then you move onto shooting three shot groups at those 3, 4 or 5 charges.  Suppose none of the charges group at all, or suppose that the smallest group you get at 100 yards measures 2"-3".

Is a 2"-3" group sufficiently 'tight' enough to start adjusting seating depth to shrink the group down to MOA (1" @ 100yds")? 

Or, would you conclude that something needs to change e.g. type of powder, type of bullet, bullet weight?

[jasnt]

With 2-3 mos I’d say something needs changing.  I always start with seating depth test to avoid things like this.  I do 3 shot groups with my starting load and .030” jump increments. This gets you close to a good seating depth your rifle likes with a given bullet. Then work out charge weight and then fine tune seating depth.  If playing with seating depth doesn’t shrink those groups and you have eliminated shooter error I’d try different bullet.

[BULLBLASTER]

I do mostly the opposite of jasnt  run loads from starting up and look for max (typically I start .015-.02 from lands) and checking velocity. If I get a velocity I like I’ll back off from pressure and work seat depth. If velocity isn’t there I’ve only used 6-10 bullets and change powder.

[Magnum_Willys]

If you started .020 off you are not likely going to shrink a 3" group enough at 100 with just seating change.   


FYI Here's Eric Cortina blogpost thats commonly followed.  Its an awful lot of shooting but shows the extent that some goto to get their best load.    I prefer a shorter process but I may be leaving the perfect load still on the bench. 

Update: 9/17/14
Some of you have asked for more detailed instructions on how I do this. Here they are:
1. Find Jam by seating a bullet long on a dummy piece of brass (no primer nor powder) and apply die wax to the bullet ogive and record it's base to ogive length.
2. Chamber the round and close the bolt.
3. Snap the bolt open and measure the base to ogive measurement. If it is shorter than previous measurement, this is your jam. Do it a few times with different cases to make sure.
4. Load a known powder/primer/bullet combination. I load 4 of each powder charge in 0.5 gr. increments and seat bullets at jam - .020". I use one shot of each to get barrel fouled up and also keep an eye for max pressure at the same time. You can also use these rounds to break in a barrel if you are inclined to. If I encounter pressure on the hotter rounds, I will not shoot groups with the other loaded rounds and will pull bullets when I get back home. Do not shoot in round robin style because position and natural point of aim will be compromised.
5. Shoot 3 shot groups starting from lowest to highest. All groups are shot over a chronograph.
6. Examine target and find the place where consecutive groups line up vertically and ES is the lowest and speed increases the least from one group to the next.
7. Load to the middle of the powder node and do a seating depth test.
8. Load 3 shot groups starting from Jam - 0.005" all the way out to Jam - .040" in .003" increments.
9. When you find the seating depth test that shoots the best, load towards the longest side of the node to allow more room for throat erosion.
10. Final step is to load the new seating depth and load 5 shot groups in 0.1 gr. increments 0.5 gr. on each side of node (if pressure limits are not reached). This will cover an entire grain of powder and you will be able to pinpoint where the powder node starts and ends. In the summer, load towards the low end of the node, and do the opposite in the winter.

[Jolten]

Not to thread highjack, but as a newbie reloader I've been wondering this--

Is it obvious when a particular brass, powder, primer, bullet and charge weight isn't working with your rifle?

Suppose you shoot and chrono a ladder, spread over 2 grains in 0.3g increments e.g. 50-52 or 54-56.  And you see a flat spot in velocity among three charge weights based upon the chrono data.  So you repeat the test around those charges, perhaps several times, to confirm that velocities are relatively stable around those charges.  Then you move onto shooting three shot groups at those 3, 4 or 5 charges.  Suppose none of the charges group at all, or suppose that the smallest group you get at 100 yards measures 2"-3".

Is a 2"-3" group sufficiently 'tight' enough to start adjusting seating depth to shrink the group down to MOA (1" @ 100yds")? 

Or, would you conclude that something needs to change e.g. type of powder, type of bullet, bullet weight?

Feel free to ask thread Jack. I don't mind at all. You may have a question I need an answer to later.

Btw still Loving the Savage 10t