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Author Topic: Cougar population in WA state over time?  (Read 16057 times)

Offline KFhunter

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Re: Cougar population in WA state over time?
« Reply #60 on: June 30, 2018, 11:02:49 PM »
That sounds great to me  :tup:



Offline jasnt

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Re: Cougar population in WA state over time?
« Reply #61 on: July 01, 2018, 06:33:48 AM »
14% of what though. No one has a clue exactly how many cats we have and it’s not like you can hope on a chopper and just go count them.  We all know the population has grown drastically over the last 20 years, but how much? Have we ever had an accurate count on any predators in this state? Or any game for that matter.  It will have to get much worse to get any changes in this state with the current gov.  They want Washington to be California
https://www.howlforwildlife.org/take_action  It takes 10 seconds and it’s free. To easy to make an excuse not to make your voice heard!!!!!!

The commission shall attempt to maximize the public recreational game fishing and hunting opportunities of all citizens, including juvenile, disabled, and senior citizens.
https://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=77.04.012

Offline runamuk

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Re: Cougar population in WA state over time?
« Reply #62 on: July 01, 2018, 08:07:18 AM »
Its interesting to read through the depredation archives. My County has been very liberal with issuing depredation permits using hounds if there is a confirmed cat.  Other counties just yse the cougar safety handout. 

Recent conversations with wdfw officers and others everyone knows our area has too many cats, but none of us can do more than try to fill our tags.  Good luck that land is hard enough to hunt deer and elk, boot hunting cats is like looking for bigfoot. Except I do see lots of cat sign.

And my guests have even seen cats but usually at night in the no shooting zone (under special circumstances its been done before however so still not impossible).  I think some of the problems also lie with the way the existing rules are used from gmu to gmu.  There are loopholes in the law that can be used.  Our hound guys stay reasonably busy, but could be so much busier and more effective.

Offline Humptulips

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Re: Cougar population in WA state over time?
« Reply #63 on: July 01, 2018, 10:11:56 AM »
14% of what though. No one has a clue exactly how many cats we have and it’s not like you can hope on a chopper and just go count them.  We all know the population has grown drastically over the last 20 years, but how much? Have we ever had an accurate count on any predators in this state? Or any game for that matter.  It will have to get much worse to get any changes in this state with the current gov.  They want Washington to be California

My understanding there are ongoing studies that would come up with a population number based off DNA samples of harvested cougar. I know of a biologist working on the same thing for bobcats. I do not pretend to understand it. If DFW is married to a population estimate we will probably be forced into working with that and using their study to argue our case. I don't believe DFW personnel  or the Commission are opposed to more liberal rules for cougar harvest but it needs to be defensible. Otherwise you get a repeat of what happened when they tried to raise the quota in the NE recently. Governor steps in and vetoes it or a bunch of lawsuits.

IMO though the seasons should not be based on a population estimate. No other game animal is managed that way. Populations should be estimated by trend. Going up, down or static. Those trends should be based off hunter success. and days afield. You have seen the same questions when you fill out your tag reports. More cats killed per days afield means there are more cats and the seasons should be liberalized. Inverse also applies but it needs to be a long trend. You cannot adjust seasons based on one years figures.

That still leaves out where we want the population to go. I'd bet down would be the consensus on here but there are those who will argue against that. We still need that defensible argument based on the science DFW accepts.
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Offline bearpaw

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Re: Cougar population in WA state over time?
« Reply #64 on: July 01, 2018, 10:22:56 AM »
14% of what though. No one has a clue exactly how many cats we have and it’s not like you can hope on a chopper and just go count them.  We all know the population has grown drastically over the last 20 years, but how much? Have we ever had an accurate count on any predators in this state? Or any game for that matter.  It will have to get much worse to get any changes in this state with the current gov.  They want Washington to be California

My understanding there are ongoing studies that would come up with a population number based off DNA samples of harvested cougar. I know of a biologist working on the same thing for bobcats. I do not pretend to understand it. If DFW is married to a population estimate we will probably be forced into working with that and using their study to argue our case. I don't believe DFW personnel  or the Commission are opposed to more liberal rules for cougar harvest but it needs to be defensible. Otherwise you get a repeat of what happened when they tried to raise the quota in the NE recently. Governor steps in and vetoes it or a bunch of lawsuits.

IMO though the seasons should not be based on a population estimate. No other game animal is managed that way. Populations should be estimated by trend. Going up, down or static. Those trends should be based off hunter success. and days afield. You have seen the same questions when you fill out your tag reports. More cats killed per days afield means there are more cats and the seasons should be liberalized. Inverse also applies but it needs to be a long trend. You cannot adjust seasons based on one years figures.

That still leaves out where we want the population to go. I'd bet down would be the consensus on here but there are those who will argue against that. We still need that defensible argument based on the science DFW accepts.

Realistically, with the current political landscape, I think there is only one scenario that might encourage WDFW to reduce cougar numbers in any given area. They already do a few removals some years in very small problem specific areas.

 - Rural areas identified by WDFW that are experiencing cougar threats/depredation on pets, livestock, or humans.
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Offline Bob33

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Re: Cougar population in WA state over time?
« Reply #65 on: July 01, 2018, 10:47:51 AM »
WDFW does not need the governor to approve limits for deer, elk, or any other big game animals. Why can't they legally manage cougars without the governor interfering?
Nature. It's cheaper than therapy.

Offline Humptulips

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Re: Cougar population in WA state over time?
« Reply #66 on: July 01, 2018, 10:53:50 AM »
WDFW does not need the governor to approve limits for deer, elk, or any other big game animals. Why can't they legally manage cougars without the governor interfering?

I do not believe the Governor would have had grounds to step in had the Commission followed the Cougar Management Plan and the associated public input would have been taken.
Bruce Vandervort

Offline Whitenuckles

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Re: Cougar population in WA state over time?
« Reply #67 on: August 15, 2018, 02:19:28 PM »
Had one sleeping next to my work van last Tuesday morning around 5am. Walked to about 15-20 yards from it before it jumped up and ran. Scared the hell out of me. Needless to say, I've been paying a lot more attention when walking out in the morning.
GEAUX TIGERS

Offline mfswallace

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Re: Cougar population in WA state over time?
« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2018, 08:55:07 PM »
https://articles.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2018/09/attack_prompts_questions_on_wh.amp

By Salem Statesman Journal

What happens now?

In the wake of Oregon's first fatal attack by a cougar and the second deadly attack in the Northwest this year the question of how best to manage the state's big cat population has reached the forefront.


Even before a cougar attacked and killed 55-year-old hiker Diana Bober in Mount Hood National Forest last week, mountain lions were already in the public eye.

Their increasing numbers an estimated 6,600 statewide have pushed the predators closer to Oregon's population centers, officials said. That's led to a series of high-profile incidents in The Dalles, Ashland, Silverton and Dallas.

Complaints about cougars have tripled in the Willamette Valley since 2011. And the number of cougars killed due to human or livestock conflicts reached 169 animals in 2016, according to state records.

Hunters say they've seen the problem coming for years, ever since a ballot initiative in 1994 outlawed the use of hounds to hunt cougars.

They say it eliminated the most effective tool for managing cougar numbers and allowed the population to skyrocket.

"This is a statistical problem now," said Jim Akenson, a longtime cougar biologist now working for the Oregon Hunters Association. "The more cougars you have on the landscape, the greater the chance of a negative encounter. If their numbers continue to grow, you do worry about this happening again."

Akenson said reinstating hound hunting would not only bring cougar numbers down to healthier levels around 3,500 animals statewide, he said it would also reestablish a greater fear of humans in animals increasingly brazen about showing up in populated areas, he said.

Akenson said he'd take a county-by-county approach, looking to cap cougar numbers based on local conditions.

Environmental groups strongly disagree. They point out how rare fatal attacks by cougars are and say hunting causes more problems than it fixes.

"This is an absolute tragedy a person has died but we have to remember that this is very, very rare," said Dr. John W. Laundre, a professor at Western Oregon University and a board member of the environmental group Predator Defense.

This is Oregon's first confirmed fatal attack over a long history, he noted.

Three people have been killed in California and Colorado in cougar attacks, while two have died in Washington, including earlier this year, when a cougar attacked two mountain bikers near North Bend, killing one of them.

"If you look at it objectively, how few incidents occur really speaks to how well cougars live with us," Laundre said. "Deer kill far more people than cougars by being on the highway and getting hit by a car. Should we wipe out every deer seen near a road?"

In terms of management, hunting is actually among the worst ways to control a population, Laundre said.

Oregon sport hunters killed an average of 261 cougars each year during the past decade, according to state numbers, even as cougar numbers kept increasing.

"There's no evidence that hunting reduces cougar numbers," Laundre said.

Even worse, he said, "using sport hunting as a way of controlling them kills animals that aren't causing any problems, it disrupts the social order, so you have these young male cats that don't get the training they need."

Laundre suggested California's model, which removes mountain lions that cause problems but hasn't allowed sport hunting since 1990. California's population is estimated at between 4,000 and 6,000 animals.

Hunters say they could control the population, but need hounds to achieve that goal.

"The harvest of (cougars) would be doubled if hounds were allowed," Akenson said. "Plus, they impart a man-fear response from cougars that tends to keep cats more wary."

Cougars were once abundant in Oregon, but similar to other predators, such as wolves, that started to change with the arrival of settlers in the 1800s.

Before Oregon was even an official state, bounties were placed on cougars. The bounty was $10 per animal in 1911 and $25 by 1925.

"The most effective and devastating method was poison," Derek Broman, carnivore coordinator for the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife, told the Statesman Journal earlier this year.

The number of animals dropped sharply to an estimated 200 by the 1960s.

But, unlike wolves, cougars never went extinct in Oregon. A few pockets remained, mostly in the southwest and northeast.

"My belief is that unlike wolves, which are pack animals and easier to find, cougars are solitary and prefer really difficult terrain for humans," Broman said. "They likely persisted because there were pockets of them where humans just couldn't reach."

In 1967 cougars were declared a "game animal" and subject to regulation by state officials. Bag limits were established for hunting cougars, which allowed their numbers to rebound to around 2,000 animals by 1987, according to ODFW.

Should there be a statewide cap on cougars?

Once the number of cougars rebounded, their numbers continued to grow and expand into just about any place with a food source mainly, deer and elk.

The number of cougars increased at a consistent clip, growing steadily to today's estimated total of 6,600.

A big question has been whether the state should establish a hard cap on cougar numbers.

Broman told the Statesman Journal earlier this year that they project Oregon being able to support around 7,600 cougars statewide, although that wasn't a number they necessarily believe they'll reach.

"The arrival of wolves has brought a lot of uncertainty, so trying to pick a hard number right now would be tricky and might end up bring inaccurate in the future," Broman said.

For the moment, state officials haven't commented on whether the current situation will mean any change in cougar management policy going forward.

-- Zach Urness, Statesman Journal

Offline wolfbait

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Re: Cougar population in WA state over time?
« Reply #69 on: September 18, 2018, 07:28:46 AM »

 


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